Greenville Transit

[g-man430]

I don't know g-man, The pic. that WYFF used is the same as what Eugene used

for the media for the Emx line, but as you can see from the photos the actual buses

don't look the same as the renderings.

I do know that Bombardia builds a BRT system with a center rail for guidance on

narrow R.O.W so the drivers don't have to control the buses as they pass at high

speeds. And when the bus is on the street the center wheels retract.

I think WYFF Just used a generic rendering to show what it could look like.

Very true. Also remember WYFF showed more than one pic during the story. They showed three other models, which were all BRT buses. Maybe they said it would be high-speed because it would be faster getting from downtown to ICAR then using a regular bus or car on city streets seeing how this rail line is a straight shot from one to the other.

Edited March 16, 2007 by g-man430

[goodbye]

As some of us have said earlier, it doesn't matter a whole lot what type of transit is used (although we'd prefer rail). The positive about this one line is that it is dedicated - not running alongside or in the middle of roads. It is a completely seperate line that travels between ICAR and downtown. Don't forget that they mentioned multiple stops along the way, so people wanting to hop on somewhere in the middle will likely be able to do so.

[g-man430]

^^^I agree. By 2030, probably before then this route will run north to south from Travelers Rest to Mauldin on Light-rail or BRT and east to west from Greer to Clemson by BRT: http://greenvilleplanning.com/transportati..._newsletter.pdf

Edited March 16, 2007 by g-man430

[GRDadof3]

We're working on a transit coalition project in Grand Rapids and I've done a little research on BRT:

- It's called "high-speed" because it generally has traffic light priority, or a devoted diamond lane so that it doesn't mix with regular traffic. "High speed" just means faster than standard bus routes. Don't think TGV France.

- Yours looks like it will run on an old abandoned rail ROW (Right of Way), which means it will travel in a "transitway" like the OC Transpo in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada (and other cities), although much of OC Transpo has been replaced by DEMU (Diesel Electric Multiple Unit trains) that require no overhead catenary like light rail and run on existing freight rail:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OC_Transpo.

- The confusion from the media regarding "rail, pavement", etc. comes from a lot of people being unfamiliar with the system, especially reporters. We're running into the same situation here in GR with a proposed BRT and streetcar system. It's a "fixed guideway", sometimes with curbs on the sides for automated guidance, sometimes not. But frankly, if it's on its own ROW, why not just build a road?

- That Eugene-Springfield system gets used a lot by BRT proponents, because it features fancy buses and some nice looking fixed guideways (that no one has built other than Eugene--Springfield). It was a video put together by Newlands & Co. and you may even be able to download it HERE still.

- If Greenville's system is going to be done for $4 Million, it will probably look nothing like the fancy video, and more like Ottawa's old bus transitway.

BRT is OK for some corridors, but several things I've found out: 1) No BRT line has ever been converted to light rail as the proponents claim 2) There has been very little (if any) development that has come to a BRT corridor like it does to LRT corridors. There might be some out there, but I'm still looking after a month or so. That's the key ingredient of LRT, is that in city after city $Billions of redevelopment and infill has occurred along the lines and near stations, much like new highway interchanges bring new development (except one light rail line carries the same capacity as a 16 lane freeway, which no one wants to live by)

All you can hope for is that a good park-n-ride system gets built on a BRT line and that it inspires enough people to use it vs. their cars. But it still has the stigma of being a bus. Having that beautifully preserved ROW that you guys have that could easily handle a DEMU line, I'd hold out for the $2 - $3 Million per mile that it takes to build that kind of system vs. a BRT.

Not trying to rain on the parade, but hope that helps.

[goodbye]

That was a very informative post, GRDadof3. Thanks for taking time to share it with us.

[g-man430]

That was one great post, GRDadof3. Love that new Marriott you guys got there too in Grand Rapids.

Edited March 16, 2007 by g-man430

[GRDadof3]

Thanks guys. I haven't looked at Greenville photos in a while. I think skyliner posted some great ones and is Rested Traveler still around?

Sorry, off topic. Take care!

[Spartan]

You may want to look at the photo Spartan posted above. It is the exact same type of bus as the one on WYFF, yet it appears to be the same system as the the others shown here.

Bingo. Its a 2003 concept drawing of Eugene, OR's system. Want to know why this picture was on WYFF? If you do a search for "BRT" on Google Images, this is the first "pretty looking" BRT concept drawing to show up

http://blog.foe.org/getting_there/2006/03/..._bus_and_r.html

The pictures that maninthepark showed us are what I associate with BRT, although the bus style can vary significantly. The ones that look like a train are considerably more expensive. I think they're going to use those in Charlotte. The point is that there's no rail involved here. Just pavement of some kind.

Well said, GRdad. Well said.

[g-man430]

The good news is that whether they build BRT, DMU, or LRT development will continue at a very rapid pace in this area with developments like ICAR, South Financial, Millennium Campus, Verdae, Magnolia Park Town Center, The Point, Shops at Greenridge, etc.

[Greenville]

Thanks for the great info, guys.

[NYTransplant]

Yes, thanks everyone for some great posts and research!

[gs3]

Great info GRDadof3! Thanks!

One thing still puzzles me though. If this is only BRT, it could easily run on surface streets, right? Why is the city taking the extra expense of having it run on it's own dedicated right-of-way? A right-of-way that I might mentioned, doesn't but up against a street or share common ground with a street? This right-of-way is dedicated in the same manner as a rapid rail line.

If that right-of-way is paved or paved with some sort of rail, doesn't really matter. What I think matters is that this is a dedicated transit right-of-way and while it may start as a "bullet bus" or what ever hybrid ends up running on it, I think it shows wisdom for the future and Greenville can expect greater things in the future. No city is going to go to the trouble of building a dedicated right-of-way on old rail lines just for a bus. I think great things are coming down the road in the future. Anyone familiar with the Greenville spirit and attitude will probably agree. This is the tip of a large iceberg guys!

[GRDadof3]

More info for my Southern Soul Brothers (and Sisters).

Going back to my last post about the O Train in Ottawa, you may want to take a closer look at this system. It was built for about $21 Million for 8 km (5 miles), including building five new level boarding stations, several with park-n-ride lots for commuters. It uses Bombardier Talent DMU trains, which are very light weight (can be considered light rail) that require no overhead catenary wire, and runs on an old abandoned rail ROW. These trains are used extensively in Germany and other parts of Europe, and becoming big in former Soviet countries. I see them becoming the next big low cost light rail alternative in the U.S. as they get more exposure.

The stations are then fed with connector bus lines.

They accelerate at about 2 mph/ps, which is pretty close to standard light rail vehicles of 3 mph/ps. Their average speed is about 30 mph, which again on most light rail lines is comparable, and probably suitable for what you guys are looking at.

Ottawa O-Train google search

Another system that we are looking heavily into is the River Line in New Jersey. It uses new technology Diesel Electric Multiple Units made by Bombardier and Stadler Rail, which were specifically built for New Jersey Transit so that they can run in embedded track in the streets, have tighter turning radii for city streets, as well as share existing freight rail lines. Since they don't meet FRA crash requirements to share freight rail lines, New Jersey entered a partnership agreement with the freight rail operator to run freight at night (you guys wouldn't even need this). DEMU's, because they act as a diesel/electric hybrid, bet 40% better fuel mileage than standard DMU's.

It's a little more expensive (still much less than traditional light rail of $40 - $50 Million/mile), but much of the $1 Billion cost of the 34 mile River Line system was rebuilding streets with embedded rail, and completely rebuilding the streetscapes in the downtown areas along the 34 mile long route. And no overhead wires.

Ridership is skyrocketing, and they have added additional trains and tightened up headways on the line already.

River Line New Jersey

River Line Second Year Update - Transportation Research Board

But as someone mentioned previously, you have to fix the problems with your current transit agency first before you can venture into something bigger. Thankfully, our transit agency (the 6 city Interurban Transit Partnership and the RAPID bus system) is top notch, has won several national awards, receives voter-approved funding increases every time they ask for it (because people know it is being well spent), and ridership reaches record highs every year. Your transit people may want to get in touch with Peter Varga at the RAPID and find out what his secret is.

If you have any other questions, shoot me a PM or I'll check back in here.

[Spartan]

Great info GRDadof3! Thanks!

One thing still puzzles me though. If this is only BRT, it could easily run on surface streets, right? Why is the city taking the extra expense of having it run on it's own dedicated right-of-way? A right-of-way that I might mentioned, doesn't but up against a street or share common ground with a street? This right-of-way is dedicated in the same manner as a rapid rail line.

If that right-of-way is paved or paved with some sort of rail, doesn't really matter. What I think matters is that this is a dedicated transit right-of-way and while it may start as a "bullet bus" or what ever hybrid ends up running on it, I think it shows wisdom for the future and Greenville can expect greater things in the future. No city is going to go to the trouble of building a dedicated right-of-way on old rail lines just for a bus. I think great things are coming down the road in the future. Anyone familiar with the Greenville spirit and attitude will probably agree. This is the tip of a large iceberg guys!

You have hit on some of the problems with BRT. Its essentially a glorified bus. And like GRdadof3 said, if you're going to do this, why not go ahead and invest a little more money and build a proven system with proven results (rail)?

Dedicated ROW guarantees on time service- you know that you wont be caught up in congestion like regular busses. Nicer BRT's may have that guideway looking thing, but the same principle can be accomplished with a dedicated/separated bus lane using regular GTA busses. The rest is just fluff that will supposedly make it easier to move to a rail system.

[g-man430]

Here is an email I just received on this mass transit proposal:

The final design for a system is not set yet, so it is difficult to say what the buses would look like. However, the important attributes will have buses loading at stations, fares paid at those stations, an exclusive right of way for the buses to travel on, among the other important features. Ultimately, this could be phased into a light rail line. However, there would not be much travel time advantage to a rail line but the costs would be many times that of a bus rapid transit line.

James Bourey-Greenville City Manager

[g-man430]

Once this and the tram/micro-bus from Traveler's Rest to downtown are finished, you'll be able to practically ride mass transit all the way from ICAR to TR.

[g-man430]

Another email from James Bourey:

That is not possible to fund LRT right now and may never be possible. The bus rapid transit is a small fraction of the cost. Actually if there is conversion to light rail in 20 years very little of today's cost would be thrown away.

Edited March 16, 2007 by g-man430

[goodbye]

Once this and the tram/micro-bus from Traveler's Rest to downtown are finished, you'll be able to practically ride mass transit all the way from ICAR to TR.

Just to clarify, this BRT system is not mass transit, but it will move a pretty decent group of people around.

[GRDadof3]

Another email from James Bourey:

That is not possible to fund LRT right now and may never be possible. The bus rapid transit is a small fraction of the cost. Actually if there is conversion to light rail in 20 years very little of today's cost would be thrown away.

Interesting. Doesn't he consider tearing up concrete guideways to lay track to be costly?

Gravel roads are cheaper than asphalt and concrete. Doesn't mean they are appropriate for all settings. I wish you guys luck. Sounds like they've been sold the BRT dog-n-pony show.

[g-man430]

Just to clarify, this BRT system is not mass transit, but it will move a pretty decent group of people around.

Public transport, public transportation, public transit or mass transit comprises all transport systems in which the passengers do not travel in their own vehicles. While it is generally taken to include rail and bus services, wider definitions would include scheduled airline services, ferries, taxicab services etc.-any system that transports members of the general public. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_transport

-Sounds like mass transit to me Skyliner.

Edited March 16, 2007 by g-man430

[g-man430]

Don't cut and paste articles on this site. How many times do we have to tell you?

Edited March 17, 2007 by metro.m

[whitehourseview]

I'm a little slow to this party. Can I sum up and then folks can tell me if I have it right or wrong?

BRT is sorta a hybrid between a bus and train. Essentially it uses existing rail lines and then puts public transport on it. Therby the local government doesn't have to build expensive new rail lines with right of way's, nor does it need to infest in expensive to maintain light rail systems. In return, a reliable system is put in place along transportation coridors that allows the users to avoid time delays on roads entirely. Is that right?

Or can I just call a BRT a bus/train 'thing'?

[monsoon]

Bus Rapid Transit is essentially the idea of light rail but using buses that may travel on regular highways and/or dedicated lanes which supporters like to call guideways. The buses have low floors and doors that open like a light rail train and they stop at stations where people have already bought tickets like a rail system. Beyond that it is pretty much standard bus technology.

It's still quite expensive to implement, and honestly there have been mixed results with these systems.

[gs3]

BRT is sorta a hybrid between a bus and train. Essentially it uses existing rail lines and then puts public transport on it. Therby the local government doesn't have to build expensive new rail lines with right of way's, nor does it need to infest in expensive to maintain light rail systems. In return, a reliable system is put in place along transportation coridors that allows the users to avoid time delays on roads entirely. Is that right?

Excellent summary.

Additionally, one of things I'm most excited about for this new transit line is the the fact that the city will actively be encouraging dense "transit oriented" development along the ROW. This article from todays Greenville News talks about encouraging such developments.

http://www.greenvilleonline.com/apps/pbcs....EWS01/703170313

[gs3]

Here is a map of the route for the new system. Noticed in looking back at the postings, we were refering to this as a 4 million dollar system (which sounded cheap), it's a 20 million dollar system for the first line (anybody know where we got the 4 million number?).

http://greenvilleonline.com/assets/gif/BS66242317.GIF