Greenville Transit

[adrockc2]

(anybody know where we got the 4 million number?).

http://greenvilleonline.com/assets/gif/BS66242317.GIF

I think that is the amount the city would have to come up with. The rest (80%) being paid for by the government.

[whitehourseview]

I think that is the amount the city would have to come up with. The rest (80%) being paid for by the government.

Federal government, taxpayers coming up with all of it of course.

[breed]

Interesting. Doesn't he consider tearing up concrete guideways to lay track to be costly?

Gravel roads are cheaper than asphalt and concrete. Doesn't mean they are appropriate for all settings. I wish you guys luck. Sounds like they've been sold the BRT dog-n-pony show.

I think the cost concerns relate more to right-of-way purchase, which is one of the most expensive parts of building a system. Get the right of way now, and then you won't have to pay boatloads for them in the future.

*********

With that being said, I don't see this as a BRT vs LRT debate. You aren't going to have any kind of success with LRT unless you have a functional bus system. I think this gets us down that road.

If anything, I think this should be a debate on whether we should have a BRT system or a traditional bus system. I think BRT is the way to go, as it would be more likely to attract a more diverse clientele, and be a cog in getting more transit-oriented development.

I think one of the advantages of BRT is the ability to go "off the grid" if needed. (Would the design of the buses prevent this?) One of the drawbacks of LRT is that very inflexible in that regard. You couldn't use LRT for transit to a unique event that was not already in the system's service area.

[adrockc2]

Work has started on the removal of the railroad line in Travelers Rest

[gs3]

I think the cost concerns relate more to right-of-way purchase, which is one of the most expensive parts of building a system. Get the right of way now, and then you won't have to pay boatloads for them in the future.

*********

With that being said, I don't see this as a BRT vs LRT debate. You aren't going to have any kind of success with LRT unless you have a functional bus system. I think this gets us down that road.

If anything, I think this should be a debate on whether we should have a BRT system or a traditional bus system. I think BRT is the way to go, as it would be more likely to attract a more diverse clientele, and be a cog in getting more transit-oriented development.

I think one of the advantages of BRT is the ability to go "off the grid" if needed. (Would the design of the buses prevent this?) One of the drawbacks of LRT is that very inflexible in that regard. You couldn't use LRT for transit to a unique event that was not already in the system's service area.

Great points!

[greenvillegrows]

It's interesting that both the city and county are simultaneously developing their own ideas for BRT/LRT. Rapid Transit only works as part of a system (you can't step off and be expected to walk a half mile to work). Has there ever been financial backing for the normal bus system in Greenville? I've read that they operate only a fraction of the system compared to Charleston or Charlotte - that means operational funding issues. I can't imagine that the Federal Government would pay for the infrastructure being discussed without a support system in place (otherwise everyone would do it just for the project benefit). I know that the city did some trolleys downtown, but that seemed more like tourism than transit.

[Spartan]

Welcome to the forum greenville grows!

You are right. The transit system operates at about 1/3 the volume it should compared to other cities its size. The problem is directly attributable to a lack of funds. That trolley that runs around downtown isn't even a part of GTA. There is some definite fracturing here in terms of goals for transit in Greenville. I sincerely hope the governments manage to work this out soon.

[jarvismj]

This might be the first bright thing that I've heard of County Council doing in a very long time.

County to consider eliminating GTA

To summarize the article here, the idea has come up that the GTA would fold, and that a joint City-County transit system would be started up, and pull from the already existing services that both have to offer, ie: HR, benefits, etc. In my opinion, this might just be the way to go, and put the GTA out of its misery. Of course, I'd want to see something that is going to be better replace it, and with better schedules, more routes, overall more service in general.

[GvilleSC]

This does sound positive. Atleast it's not the same old "GTA needs money, so and so gives them X-amounmt..."

[greenvillegrows]

This might be the first bright thing that I've heard of County Council doing in a very long time.

County to consider eliminating GTA

Look at these comments from the article:

"Council Chairman Butch Kirven said the measure would eliminate much of the struggling bus system's overhead costs such as human resources, maintenance and legal support, freeing up additional revenue to spend on buses."

"It also would get rid of private management firm McDonald Transit and give the city and county more direct control over the local bus system"

"Grier said ... he personally likes the idea because the cost of running human resources, accounting, inventory and other functions for a $3 million organization is "killing us."

These things don't sound right. For a regional transit system, most maintance is paid by the Federal Government. Human resources alone can't be responsible for the dwindling, pathetic system - let alone be "killing" it. McDonald Transit runs transit all over the country: http://mcdonaldtransit.com/locations.htm. In the past, the city and county have never stepped up to fund transit, why will they be able to run it better than a national management company? Another large company, First Transit (http://www.firsttransit.com/customers_loc_profile.php), ran it before and got no support either.

I think it all comes down to:

"Asked Friday if reducing overhead costs is a way for the county to avoid increasing its slice of transit funding, Kirven said the proposal "probably would have that effect."

Neither Greenville County, nor the City prioritizes real transit. The County will contribute less and the City is going to pick up big bucks in the way of real estate development. I wouldn't be suprised to hear that the Hughes or Centennial American pick up another project on the GTA's property within 2 years after this all happens.

Greenlink is a great idea. But it needs real mass transit to support it. Otherwise, it's just another tourist ride.

[g-man430]

Here is a pdf file on the proposed ordinance to eliminate GTA and start over from scratch with a new bus system owned by the city and county of Greenville: http://www.greenvillecounty.org/County_Cou...20507%20ord.pdf I'm for it just because it can't really get any worse than it is now. The only way it could be worse is to have no bus system at all.

Edited April 17, 2007 by g-man430

[g-man430]

This is becoming more confusing than sliced bread: http://greenvilleonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/...NEWS01/70417036

[distortedlogic]

I find it incredibly disheartening that a community the size of Greenville, with all its growth, and all it has to offer, cannot provide and maintain at least an adequate bus system (if not a top notch one). There is simply no reason why this community cannot have a viable mass transit system. Cities our size (and smaller) all across the country can figure this out, and even across our own state. If Greenville (and even upstate) leaders truly want to have a nationally recognized city with a model urban environment, this ingredient is a must, not an if we can. There is plenty infrastructure, business, demand, locations, and yes; MONEY to make it happen. Come on Greenville, let's get this together!

[g-man430]

I find it incredibly disheartening that a community the size of Greenville, with all its growth, and all it has to offer, cannot provide and maintain at least an adequate bus system (if not a top notch one). There is simply no reason why this community cannot have a viable mass transit system. Cities our size (and smaller) all across the country can figure this out, and even across our own state. If Greenville (and even upstate) leaders truly want to have a nationally recognized city with a model urban environment, this ingredient is a must, not an if we can. There is plenty infrastructure, business, demand, locations, and yes; MONEY to make it happen. Come on Greenville, let's get this together!

If you want it badly enough then go down to county council and tell them to do something about it. Posting concerns and opinions on this forum won't do any good. You have to get the community together and stand up as one large front to get this transit system back on track. I have emailed city and county council members several times in the past few months telling them about my concerns over the bus system and what could be done to make it better for the whole area. Everybody else on this forum that lives in the Greenville area should do the same.

Edited April 18, 2007 by g-man430

[greenvillegrows]

County Councilman Fred Payne's editorial: http://www.greenvilleonline.com/apps/pbcs....D=2007704180341

Many of the transit sentiments are covered. The ways of paying for it aren't. A new image doesn't change how county councilmen feel about funding real mass transit as an alternative to automobile transportation. Councilman Payne is willing to ask businesses to fund it, but I doubt any Councilmen will suggest dedicating tax payers' money to it. Charleston, Columbia, and Charlotte, all seem to priortize transit much higher.

I agree, posting opions in this forum may not do any good. How about posting opinions at the polls? What's the process for having the whole county vote on the issue? I bet more people could see the potential benefit than the County realizes.

[greenvillegrows]

What's the process for having the whole county vote on the issue?

Actually, I may have partially answered my own question. Charleston did something similar in 2006. The plan they funded with a 1/2 cent sales tax: http://www.smallchangeforbigchange.org/pre...rtationPlan.pdf

What they sent to the US Justice Department for approval of the vote: http://www.smallchangeforbigchange.org/ord...0Referendum.pdf

The website explaining: http://www.smallchangeforbigchange.org/

Still don't know who in Greenville puts the ordinance on the ballot.

[greenvillegrows]

Greenville News article: http://www.greenvilleonline.com/apps/pbcs....D=2007704260373

Maybe things are headed in the right direction. Sounds like no one quite knows what they're doing but they're willing to start trying.

[g-man430]

Here is something you will probably find very interesting. It's a pdf file on how GTA compares to other similiar transit authorities throughout the southeast: http://www.greenvilleonline.com/assets/pdf/BS71643430.PDF

[GvilleSC]

Here is something you will probably find very interesting. It's a pdf file on how GTA compares to other similiar transit authorities throughout the southeast: http://www.greenvilleonline.com/assets/pdf/BS71643430.PDF

That's really interesting! Thanks for sharing.

[Spartan]

I find it interesting that the City and County think they can just disband GTA to make their problems go away. There are federal dollars that are attached to everything GTA has, so even if this passes, it won't make much of a difference. 80% of everything they have is attached to "GTA" including the state charter, so if they get rid of GTA, the fed could call in that debt- forcing the taxpayers to pay up.

"One of the city representatives on the recent GTA task force, said she was surprised to learn that no one has yet contacted federal transit authorities about the proposed change, and that the structure of a new transit commission doesn

[greenvillegrows]

Several articles on GreenvilleOnline today.

Before the vote.

After the vote.

Asking for input.

This has to be a good thing. I don't think the system could get any smaller.

There is no way we're getting the facts, though. I love this article from Friday which says that Jim Bourey and Joe Kernell repeated to county council "the key rationale that by taking over local bus service they could save money by eliminating the need for separate accountants, maintenance facilities and other overhead costs." And that they've been "talking several times a day about the new system". They've had months to look at the expenses of a small $3 million dollar organization which, as a recipient of Federal money has to undergo thorough finanical audits (which if I remember correctly were available to the so called Task Force), but when directly questioned about how much money they could save they said that "it was too hard to estimate". "We don't even know all the info at this time".

What's really going on here? Did they really just vote to disband the GTA without being able to estimate how much it will cost to take over?

Hopefully, they're planning on doing something innovative. I sure get sick of all the political positioning though. The city must be pushing this because they seem to go negative hard and quick when they want something.

[g-man430]

It seems like something fishy is going on with this whole thing, but I just can't quite put my finger on what it is.

[jarvismj]

Just in reading what I have in the media (online, print) I think that there is something wicked fishy going on, and the people of Greenville are getting the very short end of the stick. Now, that being said, I'd have more faith if it were the city solely running this, and just collecting money from the county. Also, is it just me, or especially this year, Jim Bourey is really starting to make me question several things, namely his motives in doing these things?

[greenvillegrows]

Has anyone kept up on the Charlotte Area Transit System? They have a construction update page that says that the rail is being put in already, and that in February some of the LRT vehicles were received and the light rail was being tested.

They are going someplace. Seems like it would be cheaper to put in the infrastructure now then to wait until we're the size of Charlotte. The BRT/LRT plan to Traveler's Rest seems like a good place to start. Charlotte's trolleys are on a rail also. Again, cheaper now than later as real estate values in the downtown area continue to escalate.

I hate hearing that Greenville County and City Councils are trying to save money by getting rid of the GTA. Seems like the only people that have been interested in promoting Greenville's transportation future has been the GTA. Unfortunately, no money = no service. I'd rather hear that instead of making the GTA pinch pennies, the City and County was finally opening their eyes to the future.

[g-man430]

I think everybody on the city and county council need to sit down and slap each other for a little while just for being stupid, retarted, immature, etc. Give the GTA more money. What is so hard about that? Jeez.

Edited May 2, 2007 by g-man430