Greenville Transit

[mallguy]

North Carolina supports one Amtrak round trip between Charlotte and Raleigh, as well as a Charlotte to New York round trip, and the state is aiming to add a few more round trips between Charlotte and Raleigh. Has any thought been given to extending these trains south to Columbia or Greenville? It seems as if that would be a pretty inexpensive way to alleviate I-85 crowding (for Greenville trains), at least.

[gs3]

North Carolina supports one Amtrak round trip between Charlotte and Raleigh, as well as a Charlotte to New York round trip, and the state is aiming to add a few more round trips between Charlotte and Raleigh. Has any thought been given to extending these trains south to Columbia or Greenville? It seems as if that would be a pretty inexpensive way to alleviate I-85 crowding (for Greenville trains), at least.

There is some proposal floating out there for high speed rail to connect the I-85 "boom belt" cities...Atlanta, Greenville, Spartanburg, Charlotte, the Triad, Raleigh....I'm sure it's a long way off. I would think with the traffic along 85, that the demand is definitely there. Getting people to use it is another story.

[jarvismj]

I just don't understand why they don't electrify the NS line right now. With oil going skyhigh, we have nuc. power in our area, plus it would help with the air/ozone problem we have now.

[jarvismj]

Another thing. I wish that GTA would have two things. 1) bus shelters outside of the city limits. I live in Taylors, and if there were a marked bus stop, they would have a regular passenger. 2) monthly and weekly TransPass, with card readers on the buses. They pull these into play, and I will park my car.

[mallguy]

Charlotte's bus system has marked bus stops and card readers.

Norfolk Southern's predecessors and a lot of freight railroads had looked into electifying their main lines in the 1970s and ealier. They decided not to do it because of the major capital expenses necessary to do so, which were higher than the cost savings that they could have by running electrified lines.

Electrification slightly reduces operating costs and allows locomotives for accelerate faster and run more quietly; thus some passenger lines in the US are electrified, since they benefit more from faster-accelerating locomotives than freight lines do. But given railroads' significant other capital needs, it would probably take government aid to electrify rail lines, and the government has been willing to do so only for high-density passenger lines in the Northeast.

[JayHass]

There is some proposal floating out there for high speed rail to connect the I-85 "boom belt" cities...Atlanta, Greenville, Spartanburg, Charlotte, the Triad, Raleigh....I'm sure it's a long way off. I would think with the traffic along 85, that the demand is definitely there. Getting people to use it is another story.

Coming from someone that used to live in Charlotte and do business in Atlanta, that proposal to me would seem the be the most logical and what would get the most use especially for business travelers during the week and those wanting to day trip on the weekend. I would have used that rail line just about everytime I had to make the trip to Atlanta. I'd rather work on my laptop for 3 hours than stare at my windshield.

Being in the Northeast between Boston and NY in a city with similar dilema's regarding light rail my opinion is this. Until you have the infrastructure in place with bus lines, taxis, shuttles etc a point to point rail system for commuters IMO simply will not get used. Think about it. Say I live in GV and have an office in Spartanburg. Who is going to get me to the train station in GV and who is going to get me to my office on the other end when I get off? Do I now keep two cars at either end to commute to the train station? Even most bus systems are horribly inneficient for point to point travel. What would take 15-20 minutes by car with no drama has now turned into an hour ordeal - it's no surprise that people would get sick of using said system if that was the case. Look at MARTA in Atlanta - while some use it, most don't and frankly I think it's for the very reasons I gave. The city is simply to sprawled out and it's a PITA to get around without a car.

In a city like Boston or NY, you can jump a subway and/or the density is so great you only have to walk a few blocks.

I would like to address the taxes comment for a minute. One of the very reasons I am considering a relocation to Gville is the taxation here in the great state of Connectitax.

Think I'm just being a money hungry grubby business owner looking for higher profits? The business believe it or not takes a second seat to PERSONAL taxation here.

Try this on.

Home taxes: On an average home, $350-650 PER MONTH

Vehicle taxes: On Average $600-900 per year per car.

Gas taxes: Over 42 cents a gallon.

Income tax

sales tax

utilities tax is outrageous

on and on.

I am all for paying taxes for the needed services of a city but what has happened here is our budget has grown into such a monster the cost of living is simply out of the park. A report came out recently that showed a person in this state has to earn $19.00 per hour just to afford a basic two bedroom apartment and a family has to make $80K to afford a decent home and just SURVIVE. Most of that expense has come from goverment spending and legislation. (Meaning tedious regulations on business which drove costs up etc)

Healthcare, insurance, utlilities cost etc etc is insane. Remember this, once a tax is on the books it hardly ever comes off. Spend wisely and use great restraint before giving the government additional access to your pocketbook as it's a slippery slope once you do. How many toll roads in Florida were supposed to have their "tolls lifted" after the expressway was paid for and are still there "to pay for other new projects now". East-West Expressway anyone? (RT, I'm sure you remember that one. I was there when it was built and it was said "now now settle down people, we only going to charge tolls till it's paid for - scouts honor" Yea right!)

[jarvismj]

I tend to agree with JayHass on why no one takes buses or MARTA in Atlanta, but my rebuttal would be to build rail in areas that already have a need, and then to do TOD. While we've seen this in Atlanta, its being run by developers, and the common person couldn't afford to live near a MARTA station. If the GTA provided a schedule, with more routes, and a better frequency, with say, bus shelters, I can bet you that it would be utilized. In 15 years in Greenville, if I were able to get off the train at Woodruff, and wait 15 minutes for the 55 Woodruff/Garlington bus, to take me to a meeting, that'd be great. Right now, LRT will only work in Greenville as a whole if we A) upgrade the bus system to compliment LRT, or B) have clustered development in and around LRT stops. I don't see any of those happening for a very long time. And another thing that I thought about. commuter rail wouldn't really work in the upstate. LRT would, because you can make the stops where they need to be, and the commuter system would maybe have 4 stops in Spartanburg... I just can't see commuter working. Maybe in 20 years. Start with LRT, and grow from there.

As for the rant about taxes, I used to live in MA. I'm used to it. My gripe is that what we're taxed for down here, we don't have anything to show for it.

[gs3]

^^ I agree with both jay and jarvisj3. The density simply doesn't exist in most US cities for commuter rail or ligt rail. The sadest part, is that unlike in Europe, most of our train stations are stuck on the edge of our cities. The 60's and 70's saw major removal of downtown train tracks and downtown train stations. What good does it do me to take a train to my destination then have to drive another 20 or 30 minutes? I love that train stations in Europe are the hubs for the city, not only serving passengers, but spwaning a huge web of underground shops and restaurants in the city center. Many times they are the center of retail activity for a given city.

Greenville could start with light rail and would have enough density for a South Line with stations in downtown, Haywood, Verdae, ICAR, Mauldin, Simpsonville possibly.

[monsoon]

Well the issue is this. The reason there is no density in most US Cities, including all cities in the Carolinas except for possibly portions of Charlotte, is because local governments don't have the political will to stop the sprawl. When you go to a medium sized city in Europe you don't see it surrounded by Walmart's, Best Buys, Lowes, etc etc etc, and cul de sac single home development. So unless the city/county in question starts to approach a million or so in population, building a light rail line is very problematic because plenty of people will rise up and begin to protest the cost.

In Europe they have rather draconian land use restrictions that would be found very unpalatable in Republican dominated SC politics. They put the good of the people ahead of the rights of the property owners which is exactly the opposite of the thinking in the Carolinas. What politican here is going to say, "you can't build a walmart or cul de sac development on your land". So until that mindset changes Light Rail probably can't be justified at all. When you do see this in the USA it is in places where the traffic and pollution has already gotten so bad that most local people agree that automobile based development is causing them to choke on their own filth and wasting many hours of their day. Mass transit is the only way out.

The only new city in the USA that I am aware of that has been proactive in making this work is Portland, Org. And they did this by creating an urban development area and preventing all development beyond it. As a result the area inside the development area has gradually increased density there over the last 20+ years this has been in effect and they have been able to establish a very successful Light Rail and modern street car system. It is the closest thing to a European city that you will see in the USA and is often cited as being a very liveable city. Portland has an estimated 538,000 people so we are talking about a lot of transit for a relatively small city especially when you consider that density there has risen to 4000 people/sq mile.

Trains on their own do not create density. It takes tough and proactive local government control of development along with transit for that to happen. The Raleigh Durham area is finding this out the hard way as it looks as if their transit project will not be funded by the feds. The biggest reason, there isn't the ridership needed to justify the cost and this is in the middle of an urban area of almost 2 million people, but because it is sprawled out over 3+ counties, the transit line will do little good. (in the eyes of the FTA) Despite 10 years of work and $100M of money already being spent on this line, local political bickering and lack of any TOD zoning around these lines has caused this project to die a bad death.

Unless there is a political upheavel in Greenville county, where people agree that government should be more responsible for land use, I don't see Light Rail happening there anytime in the next 25 years in Greenville county. It is just too expensive for very little benefit if there is no density. What may work is some sort of commuter rail, but that would only serve to move people from the suburbs to work centers if there is high enough density at the destination for people to use the train.

[jarvismj]

And I truly realize how little I know. I knew Portland municipal government was very proactive about this. I don't know whether to hope for political upheaveal within Greenville County, but in all likelyhood, I won't be living here when it finally comes to pass.

[JayHass]

^^ I agree with both jay and jarvisj3. The density simply doesn't exist in most US cities for commuter rail or ligt rail. The sadest part, is that unlike in Europe, most of our train stations are stuck on the edge of our cities. The 60's and 70's saw major removal of downtown train tracks and downtown train stations. What good does it do me to take a train to my destination then have to drive another 20 or 30 minutes? I love that train stations in Europe are the hubs for the city, not only serving passengers, but spwaning a huge web of underground shops and restaurants in the city center. Many times they are the center of retail activity for a given city.

Greenville could start with light rail and would have enough density for a South Line with stations in downtown, Haywood, Verdae, ICAR, Mauldin, Simpsonville possibly.

Totally agreed. The commuter trains from NYC run all the way up to New Haven CT which takes 1:15 minutes to 1:45 minutes depending on the line. (Distance is about 80 miles) As a side note one of my favorite places is Grand Central with all the shops and whatnot...nevermind the gorgeous surroundings.

All along that route what happens is people commute 20 minutes to the train stations, park their cars and then take the train for an hour to NYC. You can go by the New Haven, Bridgeport, Stamford stations and see mall sized parking lots and garages with cars stacked up all day long. Some people have a spouse that drops them off but most park and ride.

The other option is to buy a small 1.5 million dollar home close the the small train stops along the route in places like Darien, or New Canaan. LOL

One of my favorite cities to ride the train is Montreal as all the stops coincide with the "underground city" they have. (I'm sure due to the climate! ) Their trains are on rubber tires which makes them wisper quiet and when they leave their stop they have this really cool three note melody that plays (The notes carry middle - low - high like "dah dah daaaaaaah)) as the train pulls away and kind of drags the sound with it into the tunnel. They also have on the walls of all the stations. It's really an experience.

Metro: Keep in mind, most European cities were dense and poplulated long before any form of transportation outside of your feet or a horse were established. Some even walled for protection. Most of the density and/or land use was established thousands of years ago in most cases. The reason you don't see a walmart or strip malls is they simply wouldn't work based on the established population base and cultural lifestyle. It would be like putting a European style train center in the middle of our suburbs...it just wouldn't work.

I was recently in Livorno Tuscany on business - Livorno is more of an industrial port city. I don't think I saw one free standing single family home in the entire city and most were built over 200 years ago which set the standard for that city and future development. If you get out into the countryside then there are more single standing homes and farms etc but even in small rural towns the city centers are very dense and older than just about anything build in the US.

I was totally shocked at how many vehicles were used in Livorno. Just about everyone owned a car or a scooter and it was the preffered method of travel.

Then again, the cars look more like this than what we know as "cars":

Yea that's me in the picture having some fun. That was my associates second car. It's a 3 cylinder diesel that gets about 75 miles per gallon and is actually quite comfortable. It's called a Smart Car and and I wish we could get them here. His other car is a sports car that sits in a garage most days.

[JayHass]

And I truly realize how little I know. I knew Portland municipal government was very proactive about this. I don't know whether to hope for political upheaveal within Greenville County, but in all likelyhood, I won't be living here when it finally comes to pass.

That's a tough one...

Is it that very political system that is making Greenville what it is or is it "dumb luck". One thing I always noticed about people from the Northeast moving South is they want to "change" the area they move too to be more like where they came from. My attitude in that regard has alway been "why would you want to make it like the place you left!" LOL

I'm not saying you are wishing that, just making an observation and opening discussion as to is that really what Greenville need to be better or would it make things worse.

[gs3]

Metro: Keep in mind, most European cities were dense and poplulated long before any form of transportation outside of your feet or a horse were established. Some even walled for protection. Most of the density and/or land use was established thousands of years ago in most cases. The reason you don't see a walmart or strip malls is they simply wouldn't work based on the established population base and cultural lifestyle. It would be like putting a European style train center in the middle of our suburbs...it just wouldn't work.

^ Exactly. European train stations in the city center of every European city were created with little disruption to the city, because European countries were smart enough to tunnel rails underground for usually the last 5 to 10 minutes of the rail line. Under the city center allowing the stations to be right in the middle of the city. European countries spent money AND spent it WISELY (U.S. should take note of the word "wisely"). I'm not sure the US is capable of spending money smartly. We can't even get the air system and TSA fixed (thats another sore subject of mine)!

Cool car Jay! Can you imagine trying to get soccer moms in these??

[RestedTraveler]

Then again, the cars look more like this than what we know as "cars":

Yea that's me in the picture having some fun. That was my associates second car. It's a 3 cylinder diesel that gets about 75 miles per gallon and is actually quite comfortable. It's called a Smart Car and and I wish we could get them here. His other car is a sports car that sits in a garage most days.

Believe it or not, I saw one of these heading South on I-75 while I was in Florida this past summer. It caught my eye because my in-laws had previously shown me a photo they had taken during a Wine tour of Italy of some of these stacked up on shelving storage near a small (literally) corner gas station.

[monsoon]

That is a Mercedes Benz Smart though Mercedes chooses not to logo it as a Merc. Back to the subject however.

Yes European cities are dense and this is the very reason that LRT doesnt' work in the USA. We don't build dense here. There is a lot of new growth in Europe but it doesn't follow the model that we have here. The point of what I said above is that no municipality of Greenville's size is going to build a Light Rail system as long as they continue to let the suburbs sprawl out of control down the interstates and major highways. And I don't see the political will happening to make that change.

[mallguy]

I've been reading an interesting book entitled, "Sprawl: A Compact History." The book's premise is that throughout history, many people have preferred to live in suburbs, and throughout history, and most recently since the late 1800s, suburbs have been spreading, although recently metropolitan areas have been becoming denser (that's what the book says, whether that's correct or not), although high-end jobs and residents have recently shifted to downtowns, with low-end uses shifting outwards.

I don't live in a suburb and I don't want to (I used to live in the centers of two big Northeastern cities and now live in a downtown area in the South), but if people want to, fine. Why not focus on making suburbs better planned- mainly, walkable- rather than trying to stop them? I don't see that completely stopping suburban construction would be feasible, particularly as restricting development tends to drive up housing prices. What bugs me about suburbs is that they are built so that residents are completely car-dependent. The fact that people like living in detached houses is fine with me. Just require that streets be built as grids and have sidewalks, maximum lot sizes, concentrated commercial development, etc.

[JayHass]

^ Exactly. European train stations in the city center of every European city were created with little disruption to the city, because European countries were smart enough to tunnel rails underground for usually the last 5 to 10 minutes of the rail line. Under the city center allowing the stations to be right in the middle of the city. European countries spent money AND spent it WISELY (U.S. should take note of the word "wisely"). I'm not sure the US is capable of spending money smartly. We can't even get the air system and TSA fixed (thats another sore subject of mine)!

Cool car Jay! Can you imagine trying to get soccer moms in these??

I agree, it's all in the initial planning and aside from the handful of American cities that were quite large during the birth of our country most modern cities have been poorly planned. I watched a documentary on the birth and design of NYC - Manhattan specifically and it was genius for the most part the way it was done and how it was engineered.

To this day I have to say that Westchester county NY and Fairfield county CT are two NYC suburban areas that work with rail service and they work well. All the small towns and cities have stations that run regular service to Grand Central. I actually lived in Darien for a short time and had a short walk to the train station and commuted to 42nd street in the Helmsley building or 230 Park Ave and it was totally livable and a pleasure to use. Problem is a 1 bedroom apartment was about $1800 per month and the average home price is $711,000. I simply couldn't afford to live there but I did love it for the time I was there.

Here is a map of the Metro North rail line where you can see what I mean. http://mta.info/mnr/html/mnrmap.htm

The main point I was getting at with all this is Fairfield County is very rural in feel with large homes on multi-acre lots and not a grid by any stretch of the imagination. Population density is about 3300 people per square mile but you feel like you are in typical "New England" so a suburban area CAN commute with train service to a city center, but what I see different is there is over a 100 years of infrastructure in place to support said rail lines. If you live in the "corporate woods" (What they call Fairfield County) - you ride the train. Period. No one drives into the city...okay maybe 2% of the population.

It would be a long hard road for a city like Greenville to put the infrastructure in place to have a viable and livable alternative for automobile commuters. I think it CAN be done but get ready for a major tax hike to pay for it and as Metro mentioned they better plan NOW before further development not centered on a plan like that makes it even harder to accomplish. Atlanta IMHO is an example for Greenville NOT to follow. That city just had unfettered growth wherever and whenever and not much was coordinated.

Rail in a city/suburb environment CAN work as proven by many Northeastern cities but it's going to take a lot of money and a lot of work to do so in this day and age vs when NYC and Boston put these things in place. Is it worth it?

RT, we actually had two smart cars at a friends fabrication shop a few years ago as he was contracted by Daimler Benz to modify the Smart car to achieve federal recognition. They didn't and were shipped back to Europe but we got to cruise around with them for half a year and turn heads. The cars can not pass federal crash "standards" even with major modifications which makes me wonder why we don't see all these dead Europeans everywhere since they are such death traps. I've heard rumors that DB is working on doing some redesigns to get them US approved. I would buy one in a heart beat and I'm a knuckle dragging car guy that builds some insane exotics for some very rich people so you may think I would not be interested in them. No way. They are fuel efficient, comfortable, and flat out "cool". They even have a smart roadster available. I'll still have my "toy" in the garage for "those days" though.

Good discussion all the way around.

[jarvismj]

Jarvis for County Council!!!!

[Greenville]

I would love light rail in Greenville, but as we've discussed before, there would have to be a major attitude shift among Greenville area residents in order to make it happen. I don't fault people for liking their cars, especially when most have grown up relying on an automobile to get them around. After all, it does give the driver more control. It's certainly easier for running errands, going to the supermarket, etc.

I personally enjoy taking public transportation like light/heavy rail. I did it frequently while living in DC and Boston (and Metro in DC is far, far superior to the rickety old T in Boston). The only difference is that I had my car in DC, but not in Boston. And I missed my car in Boston.

On a routine day in Boston, it wasn't a big deal to walk 10 minutes to and from the T station, ride a few stops to get near where I was going, and then walk to my destination. But if I needed to get groceries, that had to be accounted for. I could only purchase just enough things that I could safely manage on the T. You have to either hold all your bags in one hand so you can hold onto the hand rail in the T for starts and stops, or be able to put your bags down to hold on (the starts and stops of the train will knock you down if you don't hold on). Sometimes it's crowded so you might no have space to put down your things. You also have to think about carrying those groceries however far you live from the station. And what if you have to run other errands? What if one errand is not convenient to where you will be getting groceries? What if you need to get some things at Target, which isn't near a subway station? Then you have to think about riding a bus from a station to Target. That bus might not run very often, so you have to plan your trip just right. But what if the subway gets hung up and you miss the bus and have to wait for 45 minutes in the cold for the next bus? What if you can't get where you need to go by train or bus and have to take a cab?

My stream-of-consciousness sounds really random, but things like that must be considered when relying on rail transit within a city. Many people don't want to fool with that, especially when they are used to having the freedom of using their car. What about older people who aren't in good shape? They can't be expected to handle the task of carrying groceries for miles on end. What about moms with small children? Managing kids on a subway isn't easy, especially if they aren't old enough to understand the rules. I realize that many people would just use light rail for outings or to get to/from work, while still having cars. But as the city grew, some people would opt to save money by not having a car. Then my above scenario becomes very legitimate, even for Greenville.

So personally, I think light rail in Greenville would be great. It makes sense to me on a lot of levels, and I think it would be a progressive step for the city. But I also don't fault people for not wanting it, because there are a lot of reasons why we don't need it in Greenville (and an argument could be made that Greenville won't need it within the next 30-40 years even). I think for a lot of people - even an overwhelming majority of people - light rail in Greenville doesn't make sense. And it doesn't make them un-progressive, or short-sighted, or someone that doesn't care about the environment. I think we need to be careful that we don't view such people in that light.

But regardless, for light rail to work people would have to be convinced that one, there is a need in Greenville, and two, that it benefits them personally (i.e., in the short term as well as the long term). Otherwise, you can forget it.

[jarvismj]

As was mentioned in another thread, if not these master-planned developments along I-85, then what? More McDonalds, Burger Kings, and the like, which would be far worse, IMO? I am with you on the need to get businesses to locate in offoces downtown, but this corporation would not stay in Greenville if not for the location they wnt along the interstate. Are we to demand they stay downtown or nowhere? They'd pack up and move to Florida quicker than you could say, "lets work out a downtown deal and forget the outer edge of the City." Something would end up on these wooded properties along I-85 eventually, but I wouldn't feel so confident in their being so successful by then.

I am with Spartan on the idea that Greenville needs to kick the LRT plan into high gear NOW.

I'm moving that whole LRT thing here, but Spartan and Skyliner are right. It will be cheaper to build LRT now, even with elevated viaducts and with tunnels, than to do it 20 years down the road on plain ROW with grade crossings. That's just how things work.

[gs3]

I'm moving that whole LRT thing here, but Spartan and Skyliner are right. It will be cheaper to build LRT now, even with elevated viaducts and with tunnels, than to do it 20 years down the road on plain ROW with grade crossings. That's just how things work.

Hey jarvis, you should submit your lightrail plan to the city, it's a great plan.

[jarvismj]

It's not so much that, it would have to get through city council, and luckily, the line from ICAR and downtown is obviously inside city limits. I've heard that Mayor White looks at these forums, which is great, but the chances of me going up to the city government and telling them this is good idea are slim to none. If it were a collective effort though, they would be more inclined to listen to us. I haven't really dwelled too much on LRT, as it is almost a pipe dream for us. But, now that I started thinking about it, a small 5-6 mile line going between downtown and the ICAR area wouldn't be so bad, and not that hard to do.

[goodbye]

The planning should continue for the entire Greenville area, but a highly focused effort to get the line built between downtown and the ICAR campus is extremely necessary today. If traffic cannot be controlled much more on the roads, then there is no other alternative but a better bus system. Surely there is a corridor that could be used to minimize the effect of building over or under major roads. Greenville desperately needs to get this going, or we may lose many more potential citizens to the suburbs.

[jarvismj]

Skyliner might know something about this, but I think that a great selling point would be to do a 3D animation of a train making the line from ICAR, over I-85, over Verdae, Woodruff, and Haywood Rd, then going ground level to downtown, and depending on alignment, going into a tunnel to one or two stations. Produce this, and then "sell the system" to local government and the voters, and everyone in the upstate. How awesome would it be to drive up I-85, surrounded by trees, and having this bridge over the freeway, and all the sudden have a LRT train come out of the trees, and speed over the interstate. That would really throw a curveball to all the people who drive through not aware of how big Greenville really is.

Edited March 16, 2006 by jarvisj3

[goodbye]

Aweome idea, jarvisj3! You have me thinking seriously now.