Who will you vote for?

[Spartan]

Remember Hitler was elected.  Yes elected.  He did this by putting people to work, putting food on the table, making the trains run on time, picking up the garbage and running a brilliant propaganda machine.  The very sensible Germans where so taken in by this machine they didn't even question when their neighbors were drug off into the night to be gased to death and burned in the ovens. 

Instead we get to hear about who Scott Peterson was screwing before he murdered his wife.  The sad thing is that so many people have fallen into this trap, including many forumers here, that this is the accepted norm now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I really hope you aren't comparing Bush, or any American President to Hitler? Hitler took advantage of a resentful society in the years after WWI. The circumstances which allowed him to convince the Reichstag to dissolve itself an cede power to him for 4 years are very very unique to the Germans. I think that is a low jab at right wing politics (if you can call Bush a conservative).

I too am sick of hearing about that Peterson case. I always change the channel if that crap comes on. The only thing remotely interesting about it is that a California court is considering an unborn child to be a person. Normally a pro-choise state wouldn't consider it a person. This outcome of this case will set the precedent for this type of thing, and could determine the future of abortions.

[paulblackgsx]

Well for all of the truth you find in the non-mainstream sources you choose to find your news with, I'm surprised you still won't acknowledge, or can't find for yourself the AQ linked terrorists that were in Iraq, before the US went in. Finding articles that don't always agree with the your opinion, and learning multiple sides to the story, is just as important as picking a source for information.

[monsoon]

[Cotuit]

Divide seen in voter knowledge

By Alan Wirzbicki, Globe Correspondent | October 22, 2004

WASHINGTON -- Supporters of President Bush are less knowledgeable about the president's foreign policy positions and are more likely to be mistaken about factual issues in world affairs than voters who back John F. Kerry, a survey released yesterday indicated.

A large majority of self-identified Bush voters polled believe Saddam Hussein provided "substantial support" to Al Qaeda, and 47 percent believe that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction before the US invasion. Among the president's supporters, 57 percent queried think international public opinion favors Bush's reelection, and 51 percent believe that most Islamic countries support "US-led efforts to fight terrorism."

No weapons of mass destruction have been found in Iraq, the Sept. 11 Commission found no evidence of substantial Iraqi support for Al Qaeda, and international public opinion polls have shown widespread opposition to Bush's reelection.

In contrast, among Kerry supporters polled only 26 percent think Iraq had such weapons, 30 percent say Iraq was linked to Al Qaeda, and 1 percent said foreign public opinion favors Bush.

The polls results, said Steven Kull, the head of the Program on International Policy Attitudes at the University of Maryland, which conducted the survey, showed that Americans are so polarized two weeks before the election that many lack even a common understanding of the facts.

"It is rather unique the extent to which we have different perceptions of reality," Kull said.

On other international issues, the survey found that around 70 percent of Bush supporters responding believe that the president supports participation in the land mine treaty and the comprehensive nuclear test ban treaty, and a narrower majority believes he supports the International Criminal Court and Kyoto Accords. In fact, Bush opposes all four treaties.

Kerry supporters correctly identified their candidate's position on every foreign policy issue in the survey except defense spending. Only 43 percent of the Democrat's supporters know he wants to keep the Pentagon budget at the same level rather than cut or expand it.

The survey was conducted in three waves, Sept. 3-7, Sept. 8-12, and Oct. 12-18, by the polling firm Knowledge Networks. The poll's margin of error is between 3.2 and 4 percent.

Kull said it is common for voters to tailor their views on particular issues to those of the candidate they favor overall, but the extent to which Bush supporters are filtering out news from Iraq that might reflect poorly on the president is unprecedented.

According to the survey, the difference doesn't reflect lack of access to information about Iraq.

The poll found that perceptions did not vary significantly by level of education among those who plan to vote for Bush.

And many of the Bush voters surveyed knew that the Duelfer report said Hussein had no WMDs, but continue to believe that he did regardless.

Kull suggested the dissonance among Bush voters reflects the country's difficulty coming to grips with the discrediting of the rationale for the Iraq war.

"This period will really stand out as when the US went to war on assumptions that turned out to be incorrect," he said. "The body politic is still struggling to come to terms with that."

From The Boston Globe

[paulblackgsx]

It's not the politics, it is the root of our politics and the root of everything in our society, greed.

Our society is sick, and it doesn't seem that anyone cares to do anything about it, because we are all too greedy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I certainly hope your not looking to politicans to correct the problem of greed. Although greed is not even what I consider a quality I find to be good, I certainly don't expect my government to change the opinions of someone from greed. Obtaining something illegal from greed, sure. Just being greedy though?

[BrandonTO416]

Its not up to the politicians to control greed, it is up to politicians to decide on policy which promotes one way over another. And if we had politicians which emphasized energy independence, transfer to newer technologies including renewables as much as possible, and we had a government that was more responsible then that makes a big difference.

[Cotuit]

It wouldn't hurt if politicians started to look at what greed is doing to the country.

ETA: What he ^ said.

[monsoon]

[Spartan]

I disagree. You might occasionally get the bad seed congressman, but I think that overall, they care about the well being of this country. Republicans and Democrats (and the other parties) all have their way of doing things, but the ultimate goal for all parties is a better society. Repubicans aren't trying to screw everyone by lowering taxes and Democrats arent trying to screw everyone by raising them. The great thing about this nation is that everyone up in Washington is trying to do what they think is best for the country.

[Cotuit]

I'm sorry but that is deusional. I'm not saying all politicians are unfeeling crooks, but they are like everyone else, looking out for number.

But individual politicians good or bad intentions aren't the real problem. The problem is systemic, you have to be in major industries' pocket in order to get elected to anything in this country, and lobbyists are in effect the fourth branch of government.

[Spartan]

Ok, so perhaps we should discuss alternatives for electing officials? Maybe campaigns should be limited to speeches like it was before mass media. What else did they do back then?

[paulblackgsx]

Wow, the bitterness rating is off of the chart.

[monsoon]

[Cotuit]

Wow, the bitterness rating is off of the chart.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Should I sit quietly and be conent with big businesses undue influence over our political and cultural landscape?

[BrandonTO416]

I disagree. You might occasionally get the bad seed congressman, but I think that overall, they care about the well being of this country. Republicans and Democrats (and the other parties) all have their way of doing things, but the ultimate goal for all parties is a better society. Repubicans aren't trying to screw everyone by lowering taxes and Democrats arent trying to screw everyone by raising them. The great thing about this nation is that everyone up in Washington is trying to do what they think is best for the country.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It isn't as simple as saying Democrats raise taxes, Republicans lower taxes. Its kind of rediculous to come from that base viewpoint without being more informed on the reality.

Democrats in congress fought for the 10% tax bracket that became part of the tax relief package of 2001, extended in revisions to this date by the Bush administration. It was a compromise, and its a bracket that the Republicans didn't support. Their main platform was to knock the top bracket from 39.5% to 33% and eventually 30% to try and flatten the tax code, not to lower the lower bracket for the first $10 or $15k of income at all.

Secondly, Al Gore ran on a platform in 2000 of cutting middle class taxes. Clinton cut middle class taxes. Not since Mondale in 1984 has a Democrat openly ran for "raising taxes" across the board to pay down debt, and that was because of the Reagan deficits anyway.

But you know, I'm sick and tired of arguing politics. Its like running in circles.

All I want out of our government is more responsible spending of taxpayer money. That doesn't mean cutting taxes until debts are paid down, because its ignorant to think the economy will grow enough to match the tax cuts then pay down deficits on top of it at this point.

But I like low taxes, so once we meet a consistent debt repayment program, I'd like to see a true, long term tax cut be implemented that does make the country more competitive and give us slightly more spendable income.

However, first should come fiscal responsibility and the government taking care of key issues: keeping healthcare costs down (tort reform is not the answer, btw, that constitutes very little in terms of overall healthcare costs rising), reliable energy policy (which includes diversifying transit and alternative fuels), then other basics like education, pension reforms, and security.

Having lower healthcare and lower energy costs in and of themselves creates more of a boost to the economy then tax cuts.

Its that simple for me. And government should stay out of the bedrooms.

For me, the choice is simple. Kerry supports making this country stronger, Bush supports stupid policies that consistently fail.

[paulblackgsx]

Have you been watching TV again?

[monsoon]

[paulblackgsx]

Actually

I think I said that.... guess my statement wasn't bitter enough.

[monsoon]

[monsoon]

[paulblackgsx]

Or rather, clear enough if that was really the case.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't see what was unclear about my statement, but ok. I just didn't refer to specific examples. But I didn't think I needed to, most skyscraper forum visitors know the government favors certain lifestyles because we discuss it all of the time, though usually in an unpolitical manner. And if someone doesn't know, I'm sure they would have chimed in.

[monsoon]

[paulblackgsx]

Like usual, there goes Kerry lying and stretching stories to attack Bush right before the election. The funny thing is how many people believe half of the crap he says. Unbelieveable.

[cityboi]

I thought this was funny. Here is a video link showing George Bush giving the middle finger

http://www.funnyjunk.com/movies/47/Bush+Un...inger%21/stream

[monsoon]