City expects courthouse 'guarantee'

[vicupstate]

Vicupstate -

Pardon me for getting your quote wrong.  But why do you think Cannon Design went through all of the hoops?  Look to the owner my friend.  They did so because they were directed to.  Cannon's design was forced to be wittled down because of the owner and a faulty CM who probably can't even correctly figure their bill at dinner time.  I seriously doubt it was their choice to cut of the dome, reduce the floors and the bussles.  No where in the competition rules and guidelines did it say that hshould the first place comepetitor not complete the task the second place finisher would get a chance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am well aware that the owner (in this case the city) calls the shots. That's why my comments were directed at the design not the firm itself. It is still Cannon's design. Their name IS on it. If I referred to it as "the revised design from the winner of the design competition", without actually using the word "Cannon" would that sit better with you? The point is, regardless of who or how it got to it's final version, it is not a design that should be used. To spend between 232 and 268mm dollars for an important civic building that will likely stand for 50-100 years, it just isn't good enough IMO. Surely a better design is available that will meet the budget. If Cannon (or any other firm) submits a new design that is better and meets the project budget and requirements, that is fine with me.

The city's contract with Cannon had an escape clause which the city executed. Did the design competition explicitly say that the second choice COULDN'T be used in case the winner didn't complete the building? If not, the city is free to do so IMO. Doing so would save time (and therefore money), not to mention get this major project FINALLY underway. No one, not Peyton, KBJ, Cannon, et al has really said anything publicly on this issue. Does KBJ still think their design will work under the approved budget? Did the city give KBJ the chance to truly make it's case? If the city disagrees, how far off the budget is KBJ's design (in the city's opinion)? These questions have either not been answered, or if they have those answers have not been disclosed. That's neither good government nor good politics.

[FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER]

Then just make the whole darn thing a super tall and quit spreading it all over kingdom come! Eating up nearby streets, closing them, etc., that should make budget and expenses go up more than one tall scraper on one city block; then in the future they can expand to the blocks around them if they choose!

FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER

[merlin]

Then just make the whole darn thing a super tall and quit spreading it all over kingdom come!  Eating up nearby streets, closing them, etc., that should make budget and expenses go up more than one tall scraper on one city block; then in the future they can expand to the blocks around them if they choose!

FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

what about all of the millions already spent on infrastructure relocation? The work has already been done for it. DOn't get me wrong, I felt that way before the competition it shoul dhave been a tower, another beacon on our skyline. But, once again we are back to the fundamental mentality of this cities government.

[scongro]

Wow, did this get heated all of a sudden!!!

The only comment I have to make is the thing about KBJ. Keep Boring Jacksonville!? You can call KBJ many things, but boring?? Check this out:

Is this really too boring for you?

[Urban_Legend]

^WOOT WOOT! I love those towers, even if the proportions aren't accurate in that rendering. But they'll be an awesome addition to the skyline!!

[PghUSA]

Don't know about the inside baseball here . . . but you can bring it and those towers up to the 'burgh anytime, those look like great additions to Jacksonville. The discussion on the behind the scenes stuff is interesting as well (let's just remember to play nice ).

[merlin]

Wow, did this get heated all of a sudden!!!

The only comment I have to make is the thing about KBJ.  Keep Boring Jacksonville!?  You can call KBJ many things, but boring??  Check this out:

Is this really too boring for you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you only knew how long I have seen those. Not to mention everywhere else I have seen them. Looks like they took Douglas anderson and set it atop a cylinder. Don't even get me started on the scale issue. Those are so far out of scale and completely dwarfs everything around it and caught in between them (Aetna Building). I give credit to Steve Papke for his 3D skills and little photoshoped lens flare.

"Boring" probably isn't the best word to use for them, maybe... played, or been there, or done that, look at Miami, Orlando, etc. All of theses cities have the same thing. Is it fundamentally wrong to do something that has already been done before.... no. However look at the contexts at which these buildings sit in these other cities. Check out these condos - much better architecture and thought - http://newconstruction.cc/TenMuseumPark.html

those are my thoughts anyway.

"a great new epoch has begun. there exists a new spirit" le corbusier

[vicupstate]

I see the appeal of the Miami project, but from the renderings, there is nothing around it that is over a few stories. Therefore, it don't see how it supports your point about 'scale'. Maybe other buildings are proposed nearby, but if so, they aren't shown in the rendering.

[Captain Obvious]

I'm not so sure that I, personally, can take architectural criticism seriously from someone who quotes le corbusier without any irony. (In my opinion a mediocre architect, and probably THE worst urban planner in human history ... at least at his level of influence.)

Let me be clear, I don't intend that to be a personal insult. Rather, I'm merely using that as an indicator to suggest that many of us have such disparate views on architectural theory, that debate on the pure architectual merits of specific projects is probably pointless. Conversly, if one likes le corbusier, one probably has no reason to take my asthetic views seriously, and so on.

That being said, I do agree that Ten Museum Park is a very nice design. However, I suspect that the project's asthetics will be hugely dependent on the quality of building materials, given the smooth simple design. With a stated unit price range of $300,000-$4,000,000 I have no doubt that the developers can afford to do it right. With these Riverpointe Towers having projected unit prices in the $200,000s I'm doubt that they could do it as well.

[bobliocatt]

I see the appeal of the Miami project, but from the renderings, there is nothing around it that is over a few stories.

[FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER]

In my opinion, KBJ hasn't done anything really great since MODIS was built as Independent Life.

The two twin towers, Riverpointe, Waterside, whatever they will be called looks like something that should be built on South Beach in Miami Beach.

I like them though; they are something totally different and eye-catching for a Southern, Blue Collar town like Jacksonville; they will definitely stand out and catch the eye from visitors and outsiders.

Same thing happened when BOA was built back in 1990; such a penetrating, modern, tall monolith did not seem to fit in to Jacksonville's skyline; but it got settled in and everyone got used to it; and the same will happen with the twin towers.

FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER

[merlin]

I'm not so sure that I, personally, can take architectural criticism seriously from someone who quotes le corbusier without any irony. (In my opinion a mediocre architect, and probably THE worst urban planner in human history ... at least at his level of influence.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just because I quote Le Corbusier doesn't mean I subscribe to everything the he was about. Does every word that someone types have to be disected here?

Yes there are no other buildings around it - unlike the KBJ towers that flank a multistory tower. The argument was that they overwhelm the context. Have you taken a serious look at where the KBJ towers are going and where they are proposed to be squeezed in? What that rendering doesn't show you is how close up against the building in the back, including the Aetna building it really is going to be.

For someone who calls himself "Captain Obvious" you sure seem blinded to the reality of the sad state architectural design is in Jacksonville. With the exception of a handful of buildings and residences, there is no progressive architecture in Jacksonville, and I will argue architectural theory in Jacksonville is almost non-existent. There is no real architectural critique in Jacksonville, the local profession does not even try to police itself for the good of the city. Everyone is concerned with feeding their ego and making a name for themselve rather than producing quality architecture that speaks to every occupant of the city.

I have said enough and IMO people here seem to be searching for arguments and commenting on people intellect. There is no need for that. Every word that is typed here is not meant to be criticized. Maybe if I start quoting Wright everyone will instantaneous agree with me? Also, how the h*ll did this get so far off topic?

[scongro]

I think we are all sick of the whole courthouse cluster-you-know-what.

[Urban_Legend]

^AMEN!