2nd Most Important or Favorite city in Midwest

[Snowguy716]

As someone who has only briefly driven through Detroit and Chicago, but has spent significant time in Minneapolis (I have lots of family and firends from the area), I don't feel warranted to vote on this issue.

Minneapolis/St. Paul are booming at the moment. Between 2000 and 2005, the population of the CBD grew to 30,000 from just under 20,000 and surpassed hte previous high of 30,000 set back sometime in the 1950s. Something like 5,000 new condo units are recently constructed, soon to be constructed, or approved for construction. With an average of 1.7 people living in each Condo, the downtown Minneapolis population will grow to nearly 40,000 in the next 2-3 years.

This comes as news soon after the completion of the light rail completion this past winter which has met a warm reception by the metro as ridership has blown projections out of the water.

More lines are being proposed along other major freeway routes as is a commuter rail on existing tracks north of the city.

I also thought I would mention some well known companies that are based in the Twin Cities metro area:

Target

Marshall Fields

U.S Bancorp

American Express Financial Advisors

PepsiAmericas

3M (The maker of Post-its)

Northwest Airlines

Dairy Queen

Medtronic

General Mills

Imation

Cargill (World's largest privately held corporation with 63 billion in revenues. I'm not proud that Cargill is based in Minnesota, but it is important nonetheless)

Best Buy

[Ih8thecold]

Here's an interesting fact: As you are all aware, GM is losing money hand over fist, this is no secret. GMAC accounts for almost all of GM's profit. The lions share of this profit (in excess of $2.5 billion, the exact numbers are HERE ), comes from funding residential ventures. Recently GMAC formed a new parent company called ResCap. This company will be insulated from GM's junk bond status, and will provide them with a lower cost of funds for doing business. ResCap is the merger of GMAC Residential and GMAC-Residential Funding Corporation, and is headquartered in Minneapolis. General Motors has become a finance company that just happens to make cars, and the finance part is hq'd in Minneapolis.

[davidb]

I agree that Chicago best personifies the Midwest, just as New York and D.C. do the BoWash Megalopolis, and LA does the West Coast.

My second favorite city is Metro Detroit, then MSP, particularly because they both have so many towns, lakes, nice homes, and good colleges. Additionally, I always meet people from these areas, no matter where I am, and they always seem happy and interesting.

Detroit's economy is very automobile-oriented, but it is more engineering than anything else. R&D work is done a lot in Michigan for autos, chemicals, heavy machinery, and pharmaceuticals, as well as a lot of financing and insurance.

Minneapolis-St. Paul just feels like a very safe and secure city, though it does become prohibitively cold. Having the University downtown is a plus, and there are many appealing downtown residences.

[TheseGoTo11]

Poor poor Cincinnati. The first midwestern city to earn a national top 10 population ranking in the 19th century isn't even pulling in 1%

The second to crack the top 10, StL, also isn't doing too well here either.

Midwestern rankings have a history of changing, and Detroit's media mkt is now just 300,000 homes bigger than MSP's - 1.9m to 1.6m HHs.

[hudkina]

Maybe because Detroit has four major media markets (Toledo, Flint, Lansing, and Windsor) directly surrounding it, while Minneapolis has half of Minnesota and Wisconsin to pull from.

The Minneapolis region still has a long way to go to even catch up to Detroit, let alone pass it.

[DetroitBazaar]

Detroit is and always be the midwest's second city, hands down. Chicago 1, Detroit 2. Detroit and its environs are engines for the entire country- internationally and nationally.

[HolidayInnExpress]

Look at it like this. In the event of a nuclear war, which cities would enemies target in the Midwest, given a limited number of nuclear weapons? Beyond a doubt, Detroit would rank very closely with Chicago, for its ability to PRODUCE material goods. In fact, part of the reason that Detroit has lost industry to other regions is not all due to free market forces, but national strategic interest to disperse production capacity in case of a Nuclear attack. If you have all your eggs in a few baskets, it makes it that much easier to cripple a nation

[hudkina]

Also, keep in mind that the majority of military supplies going overseas is directed through the Detroit Arsenal at one point or another. And once the base realignment is complete the Arsenal will play an even larger role in military logistics. It seems Detroit still earns its nickname as "The Arsenal of Democracy" even today.

[AvianKeahi]

Look at it like this. In the event of a nuclear war, which cities would enemies target in the Midwest, given a limited number of nuclear weapons? Beyond a doubt, Detroit would rank very closely with Chicago, for its ability to PRODUCE material goods. In fact, part of the reason that Detroit has lost industry to other regions is not all due to free market forces, but national strategic interest to disperse production capacity in case of a Nuclear attack. If you have all your eggs in a few baskets, it makes it that much easier to cripple a nation

[MJLO]

The cities government, is definately a joke. I don't think the city government however, plays a role at all in the vitality of the region. The core city is dying, if not dead. But the region itself, still continues to gain in population. Still continues to be the manufacturing center of the country, and believe it or not, a massive center of high tech r&d no matter how jealous you get for Minne playing second seed to Detroit. No matter how you can look at, and mock the infrastructure of the core city, even if all of the manufacturing were to dry up and head south. The heart of the automotive industry, domestic and foriegn still operates there. It is the brain-child of all support industries, and they are not going anywhere. Civicly it is crippled. But economically South-eastern Michigan isn't going anywhere

[midwest]

Maybe because Detroit has four major media markets (Toledo, Flint, Lansing, and Windsor) directly surrounding it, while Minneapolis has half of Minnesota and Wisconsin to pull from.

The Minneapolis region still has a long way to go to even catch up to Detroit, let alone pass it

This is also true for St. Louis. Springfield, Cape, Columbia, and Quincy Hannibal surrounding St. Louis. Minneapolis certainly covers more ground...thus giving it an inflated importance in regards to media markets.

I realize St. Louis is trailing Minneapolis in this poll...however I don't understand the reason. Minneapolis metro is slightly larger, but nationally I just can't believe Minneapolis is a more important city - and for the record I do not live in either city. I think St. Louis people are doing a poor job voting on this board.

Here is why I think St. Louis is a more desirable city overall

1.) Skyline is recognized worldwide

2.) Much warmer than MSP

3.) Better cost of living than MSP

4.) Better sports town - when is the last time you saw somebody wearing a Twins hat outside Minnesota

5.) Nation's 2nd best zoo behind San Diego (and it's free)

6.) More diverse population

7.) Home to Bob Costas, John Goodman, and Nelly

8.) The Hill

9.) Booming downtown growth (I realize the same is happening in MSP)

10.) St. Louis has had light rail for over a decade (MSP is coming online now)

11.) Brick City (everything has such an urban feel) very east coast.

These are just the first few that come to mind.

[AvianKeahi]

I realize St. Louis is trailing Minneapolis in this poll...however I don't understand the reason. Minneapolis metro is slightly larger, but nationally I just can't believe Minneapolis is a more important city - and for the record I do not live in either city. I think St. Louis people are doing a poor job voting on this board.

Here is why I think St. Louis is a more desirable city overall

1.) Skyline is recognized worldwide

2.) Much warmer than MSP

3.) Better cost of living than MSP

4.) Better sports town - when is the last time you saw somebody wearing a Twins hat outside Minnesota

5.) Nation's 2nd best zoo behind San Diego (and it's free)

6.) More diverse population

7.) Home to Bob Costas, John Goodman, and Nelly

8.) The Hill

9.) Booming downtown growth (I realize the same is happening in MSP)

10.) St. Louis has had light rail for over a decade (MSP is coming online now)

11.) Brick City (everything has such an urban feel) very east coast.

These are just the first few that come to mind.

\\

I Like St. Louis. But the list of comparisons is shaky at best. It is an arbitrary list, and anyone could assemble an equally arbitrary list to show how their city is superior to St. Louis. But it is a hollow exercise. Let's follow the list above for example:

1). The MSP skylines are recognized worldwide. (If STL cannot provide backup statistics, neither should I).

2). MSP is much colder than STL in the winter. That's a good thing, because MSP therefore has better skiing. (Silly, huh?)

3). MSP is much more expensive to live in that STL. Why? Because MSP is far more desirable for housing and you know what? Market rules, folks.

4). The Twins beat the Cardinals in the 1987 World Series. So therefore MSP is the better sports city. (Sounds silly, doesn't it?)

5). But here is a sore spot for me...The Minnesota Zoo is the key player in the following International conservation efforts: Tiger Global Conservation Strategy; The Conservation Breeding Specialist Group; Thai Zoo Masterplan For Conservation; Saigon Zoo Masterplan for Conservation; Coastal Anti-Poaching Patrols in Ujung Kulon National Park, Indonesia; Preservation of Javan Tigers in Meru Betiri National Park; Sumatran Tiger Conservation Program; South China Tiger Protection Program; Medical, Reproductive and Management Evaluation of South China tigers in China. The Minnesota Zoo also achieved the following awards: Minnesota Zoo U.S. Seal Conservation Fund Awards; Amur Leopard Field Census Conservation Program; 2004: The AZA International Conservation Award; 2003: The AZA Significant Achievement in North American Conservation Award; 2002: International Association of Avian Trainers and Educators Award.

So is St. Louis the "better" zoo? What does that mean?

6). Diversity? Please explain. This is one claim I do not understand. MSP is home to two of the largest Hmong and Somalian populations in the country. Or does "diversity" only mean black and hispanic?

7). Home to Prince, Jessica Lange and Sam Shepard, which clearly trumps Bob Costas, John Goodman and Nelly.

8). Summit Avenue, Uptown, Lowry Hill, Cathedral Hill, Northeast, and The Wedge, which also (somehow) trumps "The Hill." (Isn't this really silly?)

9). Booming downtown growth. It far exceeds St. Louis. But again, so what?

10). MSP's light rail is a product of a strong liberal fight to restore the rail transit system that was dismantled in the 1950's. The MSP rail system was one of the the WORLD's largest systems in the 1950's. See this link to read about the entire story. http://www.lovearth.net/gmdeliberatelydestroyed.htm

11). All of St. Paul has a very East Coast feel to it. While Minneapolis has a very West Coast feel. Hmmm....So what?

I guess what I am saying is that lists of "accomplishments" are only as good as how people view the value of those same accomplishments. St. Louis is great. So is Minneapolis/St.Paul. So is Detroit. And so is Chicago, Cincinnati and Cleveland!!!

[hudkina]

St. Louis is a great city with a great feel and history, but I'd say Minneapolis is a solid 3rd after Chicago and Detroit. The thing with St. Louis is that it didn't really grow as a region nearly as much as Detroit or Minneapolis have in the past few decades. While the city has a great urban vibe, with character that few cities in the country can match, the region as a whole just can't compete with Detroit or Minneapolis.

[midwest]

I must say all of these arguments are great, and very educated. I appreciate the feedback on my prior response regarding St. Louis. What some of you say is very true...it does come down to personal taste. I feel Detroit and Chicago are probably more important than St. Louis...but I still feel St. Louis and Minneapolis compare favorably on a national scale - at least in the eyes of people who do not live in either city.

I would like to add one thing though: I'm not sure if market value for housing is the best indicator of a city's desirability. For example: the cost of living in West Des Moines Iowa is higher than many suburbs in St. Louis. Although Des Moines is nice, it's no St. Louis. I believe Anchorage costs more as well.

I would like to argue a lower cost of living makes a place better...your dollar stretches further. If it's someone elses money who cares, but when it's my money St. Louis sounds like the better deal - especially if my choice is between StL and MSP. I can get more house for my money, and live in a comparable place.

[JivecitySTL]

Interesting discussion and many great points to boot. When it comes down to it, I don't think there is much of a difference between several cities vying for the #3 spot. Chicago and Detroit quite easily take #1 and #2 respectively by default (size & GMP). As for the rest, St. Louis, Minneapolis and Cleveland are pretty much on the same playing field. They may outdo each other in certain categories, but I don't think one obliterates the others. For all practical purposes, they are pretty much equal.

One thing Minneapolis has going for it is its relative success in the new economy. STL and Cleveland had been historically much more prominent cities than MSP, but in recent decades the latter city has boomed, and that alone makes it an impressive contender.

[AvianKeahi]

Chicago and Detroit quite easily take #1 and #2 respectively by default (size & GMP).

I guess I have to take issue with this - just a bit . San Francisco is not a huge city, but it easily trumps many others that are twice its size. The same is true of Boston or Seattle or San Diego or Miami. Size does not matter. What seems to concern most people is the quality of life and access to amenities that an inner city can offer it's residents or visitors.

[gvsusean]

If this web site still exists 50 years from now then quote me here, " Grand Rapids MI. will be of 2nd most importance in the midwest." ya I said it!

[hudkina]

I guess I have to take issue with this - just a bit . San Francisco is not a huge city, but it easily trumps many others that are twice its size. The same is true of Boston or Seattle or San Diego or Miami. Size does not matter. What seems to concern most people is the quality of life and access to amenities that an inner city can offer it's residents or visitors.

The importance of a city is not determined by the vitality of its inner city neighborhoods. Detroit is #2 in the region not only because of its population, but also because of the size of the economy.

[Xing]

Ok, my thing about Minneapolis is that I have never seen neighborhood images before, which makes me curious. I have seen more images of Detroit and Cleveland, than I have of Minneapolis, and when I do, it's only of its downtown. So, before I make a huge judgement, I'd like to see more. The other thing is that Minneapolis wasnt comparable 30 years ago, which means it holds a bit less history, and historic architecture. Only recently did it really start to surpass places like St Louis and Cleveland. So, it makes me wonder, is it "better" simply because it's newer? It never had to go over many of the racial issues either, as most other midwest cities have. So, it was lucky there, since the "caucasians" didnt have that "power challenge" that always worries them, as it did in Cleveland, Chicago, Detroit, and St Louis. "Minneapolis is so liberal and urban. Oh ya!! DOUCHE!!! DOUCHE!!!"

So, it's kind of like Boston, Seattle, and San Francisco- the power struggle isn't there, so it gives people that false sense of , "see, we don't racial issues like you ," type of attitude. Yet, Boston pretty much kicked out much of its African American population, yet we hear little about it, and we see more of that finger pointing, and self righteous persona. Anyway, Yeah, so are there going to be riots among the Latinos of Minneapolis in the future? Who knows. I hope so. Then they can move on to Winnepeg. Oh Keneda!

[AvianKeahi]

...The other thing is that Minneapolis wasnt comparable 30 years ago, which means it holds a bit less history, and historic architecture. Only recently did it really start to surpass places like St Louis and Cleveland. So, it makes me wonder, is it "better" simply because it's newer? It never had to go over many of the racial issues either, as most other midwest cities have. So, it was lucky there, since the "caucasians" didnt have that "power challenge" that always worries them, as it did in Cleveland, Chicago, Detroit, and St Louis. "Minneapolis is so liberal and urban. Oh ya!! DOUCHE!!! DOUCHE!!!"

...Anyway, Yeah, so are there going to be riots among the Latinos of Minneapolis in the future? Who knows. I hope so. Then they can move on to Winnepeg. Oh Keneda!

I strongly beg to differ. You should really look into the history of such things before you spout ignorant comments like that.

The Twin Cities have always been at the forefront of social issues in the Midwest, including race, unions and equal opportunities for all minorities. The terrible Minneapolis racial riots of the late 60's and early 70's demonstrated the extreme diffibulties that minorities - even today - face in major US cities. And it's not limited to blacks. The American Indian Movement was founded in Minneapolis in 1968. Minneapolis was the first US city to adopt an ordinance outlawing discrimination against gays and lesbians. The 1934 Teamster's strike made the Twin Cities the focal point of Union disputes in America.

Minneapolis is NOT "newer." It has endured the same sorts of issues that every other Midwestern city experienced throughout the 20th Century. To imply - as you seem to be doing - that the Twin Cities have escaped serious racial and social issues and is therefore somehow a "newcomer" to the scene is really ridiculous.

[hudkina]

Not to say that Minneapolis wasn't a major city prior to 30 years ago or that it didn't have its racial/social problems, but he is right about Minneapolis never having a large African American population.

These are the percentage of African Americans in each of the major Midwest metros:

Minneapolis 5.3%

Grand Rapids - 7.3%

Cincinnati - 11.7%

Kansas City - 12.8%

Columbus - 13.4%

Indianapolis - 13.9%

Milwaukee - 15.1%

Cleveland - 16.8%

St. Louis - 18.3%

Chicago - 18.6%

Detroit - 21.1%

[Snowguy716]

This whole "a city is only diverse if it has lots of black people or hispanics" really irks me. I think this country needs to find the definition of diversity. While I would agree that the exurbs of outter MSP are not diverse, the Twin Cities themselves have diversity. They have large groups of immigrants (Hmong and Somalian), Russian and Polish.

And while I understand that in today's world "white people" are not diverse... people are very proud of their ethnic heritage. Why do you think all those poor old people invade Minnesota's Lutheran churches every winter for Lutefisk, Lefse, and Swedish Meatballs? (Something you probably haven't heard of if you're not from Minnesota).

Diversity is more than just skin color. Be proud of racial diversity... but encourage diversity in all forms.

[hudkina]

Nobody is saying that Minneapolis doesn't have a diverse blend of ethnicities. But the point is that Minneapolis never really had to deal with the racial strife on the same level that other midwestern cities dealt with over the last 50+ years.

[AvianKeahi]

Nobody is saying that Minneapolis doesn't have a diverse blend of ethnicities. But the point is that Minneapolis never really had to deal with the racial strife on the same level that other midwestern cities dealt with over the last 50+ years.

So, apparently you are saying that "racial strife" only occurs between blacks and whites? Or could you possibly accept the fact that the people of Minneapolis/St.Paul have attained a level of acceptance and harmony that has escaped cities such as Detroit?

[hudkina]

Yes, the majority of the racial strife that has occured in this country is a result of the aftermath of slavery. Minneapolis really didn't have to deal with it on the same level as Detroit, Chicago, St. Louis, or Cleveland, because Minneapolis never had a large African American population. Also, Minneapolis isn't the only city with large ethnic groups, and no I don't think there has been any more harmony between the races/ethnic groups in Minneapolis than there has been in Detroit.