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Traffic, Freeways and Road Construction


monsoon

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the TIP entry was to widen from 85 to nc73.  As a bonus for charlotte, DOT was able to make a portion of the route a Design-Build project, which allowed it to be completed way ahead of schedule.  As they had only limited amount of money, the political decision was made to widen only to 485.  That became an embarassment when the Observer pointed out about how much of a mess it will be when 485 opens to 77, so they put in another design-build project as a stop-gap by extending one lane to Gilead Road exit.

Quick answer: lack of money keeps the full widening project delayed, but we were lucky to get a little money earlier than expected in order to get the section between 85 and 485 done years before we otherwise would have.

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Thanks for the quick response D. I guess the work will resume once monies are obtained? At least this is what I am gathering from your response. Is it fair to assume that the widening will carry it all the way through to say exit 28 (which makes sense)??? ;)

A2

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Thanks for the quick response D. I guess the work will resume once monies are obtained? At least this is what I am gathering from your response. Is it fair to assume that the widening will carry it all the way through to say exit 28
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Ridiculous if you ask me D. I did read your post about the whole "equal funding" bit. I think the State needs to get with program and quit with their antiquated system of funding. It is UNFAIR and hurts our overall economy. (and I am speaking about the entire state). When Commerce is compromised, the economy suffers. So bye bye tax dollar Mr. and Mrs Politician. They need to do something before there is a backlash of angered citizens :angry: and (more importantly) angered corporations :angry: who could stand to lose Millions in employee commute times and because of a lack of Infastructure it also makes it harder to recruit companies to what is suppose to be a thriving city. ;)

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I get the feeling that a lot more money will be freed up for these types of projects when 485 is done.
485 comes from the loop money pot, so that's not the case.

The lack of money, however, is a serious problem for charlotte, as the state funding formula uses the cities as "donor" areas to fund expensive projects in rural areas. There are Billions of dollars of transportation projects on the needs list around here that have no funding. It is the reason that independence is only widened a couple of miles a decade... and 77 south of downtown isn't programmed for widening until ~2030.

More money will be available after the next three fiscal years when DOT cash flow is back in line.

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http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/new...ws/12226063.htm

They say they're for real this time. The Independence and Albemarle Rd. interchange will open today after rush hour.

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In addition

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/new...on/12236017.htm

Interchange Puzzles Commuters!

Independence Boulevard's new interchange at Albemarle Road opened Wednesday morning, but some drivers are already confused by the new traffic patterns.

They are changing lanes abruptly after realizing they are bound for the new underpass that leads to Albemarle Road.

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Yeah, I just rode on it by mistake. I was heading home and was looking at the solid line in the center of the road wondering, hmmm, wonder why that's there, they must not have finished their striping yet. Then I was all of a sudden I was on Albemarle Rd. :whistling: But overall, it was very nice and smooth. Should ease a ton of congestion on Independence. Wonder what they'll do with those 2 turn lanes now that they aren't being used?

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Wow I'm starting to like this idea, well the loop going toward north on Eastway was 245 B so I'm guessing going on Wendover is 245 A. If I-30 is becoming a reality through Charlotte via Independence Blvd, we all will be happy that Independence will be a full freeway and not an expressway.

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Do you all really think that an interstate should be built right through uptown and along Independence? Particularly something as "nationally significant" as I-30? You have to remember that modern engineering standards for 2-digit interstates are now significantly stricter than even the standards that were used for I-277, much less the Independence freeway.

Every single exit on Independence would have to be redone to allow for wider turns, longer ramps, accelleration/decelleration lanes, and higher speeds. Particularly a quasi-cloverleaf like Eastway could easily take up 4 times as much land. Even the brand new exit at Albemarle Rd would have to be completely rebuilt AGAIN before the I-30 designation could be granted, since it is a left exit (which is basically not allowed on newly designated interstates). Shoulders would need to be widened, too. Not to mention that they'd need to improve & widen the Belk or Brookshire Freeway (depending on the route chosen), which would tear up another big chunk of previously available land uptown.

I think you should think a bit more about what you're saying. Chances are, I-30 through Updown might sound good as numbers and letters on a computer screen, but in practice it would be much more expensive and the consequences would be far more severe than you probably realize. Once you see just how much this I-30 would affect Uptown and SE Charlotte, I bet you would decide that you DON'T want it there.

Projects like this happened by the dozen in the 1960s and 1970s. Now? Not a chance in hell.

I say if I-30 is built, it should be routed along the southern segment of I-485. That would have much less impact on the city's built environment, and I-485 is already up to modern interstate standards. It would only need to be widened to acommodate more traffic, compared to the massive, costly, disruptive, and drawn out reconfiguration that would be needed on Independence.

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i say yes. I want the (hypothetical?) corridor for i30 to use Brookshire and Independence.

I know what you are saying about standards, but frankly i believe the current freeway sections could simply exist as a "future i30" for decades without any upgrades taking place. But even taking the oldest freeway section, brookshire freeway through downtown, it would not be too difficult to lengthen the ramps if it became necessary to win approval. Such a requirement would not have any negative impact on downtown, as it can be done entirely within the right of way that exists between 11th and 12th streets.

Sure, they may have to build a bridge over an extra cross street, and empty the traffic a block further (for example the exit to church street might need a bridge crossing church with the longer exit ramp actually delivering traffic to tryon instead).

but still, it is already an interstate in the system, and i'm sure something could be worked out.

Same thing goes for Independence. In my opinion it can just get a "future i30" sign and remain just as it is for 30 years. But eventually, there is going to be the need anyway to upgrade it further, so eventually they'll eliminate driveway access and make various other improvements to match interstate standards.

It isn't like we are talking about creating a brand new freeway through the heart of a city... i'm talking about using an existing set of freeways. Upgrades, however, don't have be taken on immediately for it to be identified as part of the corridor... look at i74, there are many projects that are being done right now to simply upgrade us74 to an expressway, with plans for eventual interstate-level upgrades not even planned until decades from now.

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out of curiousity, is there not a separate 55mph design standard that requires less of the upgrades you are talking about? are all interstates by definition required to be designed to a 65 or 70+mph standard with long ramps, wide shoulders, and long radius turns?

this may be a cheifjojo question.

also, i originally agreed with you that i30 should follow 485, but the more i thought about it, the more i don't agree that modern interstates must bypass cities, especially not when they can be routed through existing rights of way. why should downtown pineville get a nationally significant interstate corridor over downtown charlotte? it seems to me that brookshire and independence will need to be upgrade eventually (even if it won't happen until 30 years from now), so why not route this corridor through the more important destination? I'm not for immediately doing all the upgrades, though, but i just think that the feds/aashto would allow for a transition period as i wrote above.

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UGH! The 277/Independence interchange is bad enough. Same with 277/77/Wilkinson.

Definately do not route I-30 through Charlotte. It would be repeating the mistake that Winston-Salesm did with I-40 in the 1960s. They immediately began clamoring for a bypass.

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I'm curious why both of you assume that there will be a need to upgrade Independence to an interstate-quality freeway in the future. Although I don't live in Charlotte, I hope that Independence and the Brookshire NEVER need to be upgraded beyond the standard of the current Independence freeway. Hopefully improvements in density, transit, surface arterials, and interconnection will make it unneccesary.

Even a 55mph interstate would need MASSIVE improvements over the current Independence freeway. And since this road is supposed to be a through route, do you think the USDOT would WANT to pipe it through central Charlotte, when a faster, more efficient route through the outskirts already exists? In case you've forgotten, the purpose of the Interstate Highway System is not to bring "prestige" to cities, but rather to facilitate inter- and intra-state commerce and travel. I also doubt the USDOT would be too keen on an indefinite "future I-30" designation. That's confusing to motorists, and you might end up with nearly as many trucks on the present Independence Blvd as you would on the final I-30 when, and if, it's ever built.

Besides, I don't think this should be a game of political pork barreling about which city "gets" what. I-30 along I-485 would serve the Charlotte METRO AREA just as well as a route along I-277 and Independence. If people are going between Uptown and I-30, just take I-77, or Independence, or the Brookshire. Simple enough! And is there anyone who wants actually wants/needs to get to Uptown who would give up on their trip to Charlotte and say "Ah, forget it, you have to go WAY out of the way to get there!"

Charlotte has great interstate access to its center. I-77 is right there (Oh, sorry, that's a "worthless" non 5/0-numbered interstate.) Okay, then I-85 is pretty damn close too, all of 2 miles away. Do you want Charlotte to end up like Atlanta? I-75/85/20 cleaves central Atlanta into a bunch of disconnected areas. The only glue trying to hold it together is Marta (which does a decent, though inconsistent job.) Some may say "Atlanta is bigger and more important than Charlotte, and if we want our city to be bigger and more important too, then we need more major interstates." I disagree. In my opinion, downtown Atlanta has grown and continues to boom in spite of being sliced up like a pie by so many major interstates, rather than because of it. Atlanta has been a focal point of the inland southeast since long before interstates, before highways, before automobiles, and even before railroads. The interstates have nothing to do with it.

Putting I-30 through uptown would put a pretty huge amount of through traffic (TRUCKS!!) right through the center of the city. I daresay that nearly 100% of the NEW traffic on the road (people that don't already use Brookshire/Independence) wouldn't even consider stopping in Uptown. How many people do you know who drive through a city, are "impressed" by the skyline, and decide to "stop in" and check it out? All the truckers and road trippers would instead be trying to get to the OTHER SIDE of Charlotte, where they can gas up their vehicles and grab a quick bite to eat at a McDonalds with a nice huge parking lot and easy on/off access.

Once again, I think that putting I-30 through central Charlotte would be a mistake of monumental proportions. That sort of thing would have fit right in among the mistakes of the urban renewal days of the 1960s - The Boston Central Artery, or the I-95 Viaduct in Richmond that unceremoniousy violates the beautiful architecture of Main Street Station, for example. Such a project would be remarkably out of place in the 21st century.

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I agree with bypassing it....these significant interstates are used for long-haul travel....trucking, vacationers etc. There is no need to funnel these people through the city.....in fact, that's why outer belt-loops were created in the first place, to divert this through traffic away from the urban core.

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Parts of the John Belk Freeway have 45 and 50 MPH design speed and the John Belk was built in the late 1980s. The standards for urban freeways are different though and it is state law that decides the speed limits on Interstates now, no longer a Federal issue, and I-485 is designed with rural standards. NC laws state that urban freeways must have at least a 55 MPH design, while rural is at least 65 MPH. Dubone, you do have a point, let the Brookshire have a future designate for 30 years, even to get the Future I-30 designation will probably take a decarde, so it might be way into the future, 2050 or so. By then transportation planner will see the need to upgrade Brookshire, it was built in the 70s and will almost outuse its design. The thing with is Independence, before you get to Briar Creek/Cricket Arena, it already meet the 55 MPH design speed, but probably need to widen the shoulders around the exit to Old Independence. Beyond Briar Creek, it will all be rebuilt somehow and somewhat again once CATS decide its transit option.

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There is a big difference between "55mph freeway standards" and "55mph interstate standards."

I don't know of any examples in the Charlotte area, but for those of you who know it, take a look at 19/23/future 26 north of Asheville. The speed limit is mostly 60mph, except for a small 50mph section near the I-240 interchange. And yet, they still gave it the "Future 26" designation all the way from Asheville to Mars Hill - because that stretch of road, in spite of its widely-spaced exits and wide-radius curves (again, perfectly safe for 60mph!) is still not good enough to be called an interstate.

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John Belk is part of I-277 and it does have 45 and 50 MPH speed limits and it was built in the late 80s. But it does make sense to route I-30 along I-485 South as part of the Garden Parkway in Gastonia, the Garden Parkway will terminate at I-485 at West Blvd, but it will create a new interchange at I-85 connecting to US 321 north of Gastonia. I-485 South, but west of I-77 is currently being widen to 6 lanes to South Tryon, but it is widen with room for 8 lanes, it was widen through a loophole in the loop fund. But making I-30 going on the Monroe Connector from I-485 will be tricky, as the Monroe Connector will be an exit off of US 74.

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honestly, if aashto/fha requires such massive upgrades before they allow even for a "future" interstate designation, then i'll change my opinion. In that scenario i'd be for route i30 around 485 and putting a biz or green 30 designation along brookshire and independence.

that said, i still believe that brookshire and independence will both be upgraded eventually to have longer exit ramps and complete limit access respectively.

I know this is a controversial point, but the interstates were originally routed through downtowns for economic development purposes... and although that corresponded with the decades of suburban flight and decrease health of downtowns, (to which interstates surely contributed to a bit), the cities with downtown interstates ended up maintaining much larger employment bases than those without.... and that often is displayed most symbolically in their skylines... (winston-salem and charlotte with downtown interstates have much taller skylines than greensboro and raleigh, for example).

Anyway, i am firm believer that as long as there are enough cross bridges to mitigate the barrier-effect, downtowns benefit greatly from the high capacity of freeways and interstates. It would be unfortunate if all the investment in interstate infrastructure was forced to go to the suburbs simply because of land-intensive design standards.

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to respond to the comments that routing i30 through the center of charlotte would increase truck traffic... the center of charlotte is the HUB of trucking traffic. by bypassing the center of charlotte, you are basically bypassing where much of that trucking traffic originates and ends.

(While i'm also an advocate in other threads of shifting those trucking centers away from the 85/graham street/norfolk southern yards, that will be a decades long process and may never occur). If there is any infrastructure money or improvements that come with being designated an interstate corridor, then that money should be spent on the infrastructure in the city.

if the interstate standards are high for safety reasons, then why shouldn't independence and brookshire freeways be upgrade eventually. that is where all the cars and people are!!! again, why should drivers on the loops or rural connectors be safer than the twice as many drivers on the urban freeways? And if there is no justifying higher standards in urban limits because of high costs and lower speeds, then why aren't there a second set of standards for urban interstates.

The interstate system was built to connect city to city and in every case that was feasible, the priority was placed on taking the interstate to the center of the city. 3digit interstates and spurs were created for bypasses and distribution to more remote areas. what has changed that now the interstates must bypass the population centers? high volume transportation must go to low population areas? that doesn't make sense to me.

and it isn't shameful urban renewal.... no one lives on brookshire freeway or independence boulevard. There is zero tragedy in swallowing up parking lots of 60s-era sprawl for infrastructure. Brookshire would be a little trickier, but i am sure the issues could be worked through over time.

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