Birminham loses Corporate HQ to Charlotte

[monsoon]

Thanks for the info Fear of Heights. Tbe geography would not explain the population loss however. (unless I am missing something which may be the case)

Also if 50% of Jefferson county is simply undevelopable land, it would still be larger than Mecklenburg in size. A portion of Meck. is also undevelopable because the western side of the county includes 3 fairly large lakes and the present watershed rules restrict development.

[RiversideGator]

Fear of Heights: I love Birmingham. I lived there for 3 years for school and really enjoyed living there. I think the main reasons why it isnt growing more rapidly are (1) a bad city govt with little/no cooperation (partially caused by racial antagonism) with surrounding govts resulting in less cooperation in attracting development and (2) the conservative nature of the populace (which I liked) results in them being somewhat opposed to change. I think New Orleans has similar problems too. As to the geography, this is what makes Bham special, in my opinion. I love Red Mountain. It isnt that big of an obstacle though - you can just build roads around the ridges or even through them. In Jacksonville we have a huge river in the middle of town which means we have to build multi-million dollar bridges across the river to accommodate development, but we are still growing. I think you should focus on the two items I listed above and dont blame poor ole Red Mountain. Bham is still growing anyway.

[mjcatl2]

As somone who doesn't live in Birmingham or Charlotte, I feel I can more objective as I am indifferent to both. First why oh why is the city population always discussed? It is useless. Most cities have lost population. The only who grow are ones that were able to habitually annex land. Additionally I don't think that a city that was a blip on the map a generation ago and is only a mid size city now (Charlotte) can say look at Birmingham as that cute little city. Charlotte ain't that much bigger. Sure it is on a pace to be in a bigger league of cities sooner than later in population, however the other amenities of the big boys take a lot longer for these younger cities to obtain.

Birmingham's metro was slightly larger than Atlanta's during WW2 - both above 800,000. Birmingham's backwardness (and Alabama's in general) hurt the city and state for a long time. Atlanta grew in part, because it wasn't Birmingham which was geographically centered for much more than it is... it could have had Hartsfield essentially, it could have been a major city. Charlotte benefits because it's in a decent geographic location and honestly "lucked" out (for lack of a better description) with the banks (it could have easily been any number of cities that ended with the situation the Charlotte has).

I don't say this to simply trash either city. I hope both continue to do well and I wish Charlotte in its bid to be the next big thing in the South, would focus on better growth - making the city more unique (less chains, more urban).

Birmingham has a decent downtown for a city of its size, from what I have personallly seen - while the city has improved its growth, it can do better and hopefully retain and build upon its downtown.

[gs3]

Charlotte benefits because it's in a decent geographic location and honestly "lucked" out (for lack of a better description) with the banks (it could have easily been any number of cities that ended with the situation the Charlotte has).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When you look at the population starting in 1950 to present, Mecklenburg county gained almost 75,000 to 100,000 people every decade. That's not luck....thats people in a community working hard, developing a great place to live that attracts others.

Birmingham was big in the 50's and should be MUCH bigger now. It's growth over the years has been minimal. Look at all it's southern peers Charlotte, Nashville, Raleigh, Jacksonville, Memphis, etc. They've all out paced Birmingham.

[monsoon]

When you look at the population starting in 1950 to present, Mecklenburg county gained almost 75,000 to 100,000 people every decade.  That's not luck....thats people in a community working hard, developing a great place to live that attracts others.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed. It also doesn't seem to be known that the banks are responsible less than 10% of the jobs in the city. Charlotte has a very diversified economy.

[bobliocatt]

Birmingham, like most of the country's large early 20th century manufacturing based cities, has suffered the last 40-50 years as the industry has declined. However, like other older cities (ex. Pittsburgh, Louisville, Detroit, etc.) its still got an urban core that most similar sized southern metros will never have. Because of the beautiful historic architecture, gridded streets, matured urban parks, the place has all the potential in the world to eventually outshine others who lack these amenities. All that holds it back is the lack of vision from the local government.

[A2]

Birmingham, like most of the country's large early 20th century manufacturing based cities, has suffered the last 40-50 years as the industry has declined.

[Fear of Heights]

[

[A2]

Interesting , I never thought about that....Now that you said it, it makes sense (with respect to the Airport and Delta). The EST definately makes planning flights a lot easier when coordinating with other major hubs on the east coast. Thanks for the insight.

[monsoon]

One wonders how Chicago's O'Hare grew into the world's largest hub even though it is also in the Central Time Zone. (remember that local Chicago was served by Midway)

[A2]

One wonders how Chicago's O'Hare grew into the world's largest hub even though it is also in the Central Time Zone.    (remember that local Chicago was served by Midway)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Another good point monsoon. I think Chicago's O Hare got to where it is simply because it was already at the crossroads of the country (between the east and west coast and other mid western cities). Also a lot of rails run straight through the city, so it makes since that they have as important an airport as they have a rail system. Not to mention I think O Hare got to be what it is not because of time zones, but mereley because the city was already so developed and such a vital part of the US's overall economy. Atlanta's airport really created the Atlanta we see today. (a world class traspotation and logistics mecca). This draws people to it. It feeds on itself now. For example, if you ever ask somebody if they have been to Atlanta, they will more than likely say yes. The whole world has to layover in their airport. . Imagine how this must expose the city. It continues to get corporate clout and will continue to do so because of this world class facility we know as Hartsville International. I sometimes envy ATL. They did it right (at least for there airport).

[monsoon]

Well actually you get a layover there only if you fly Delta. The vast majority of people flying these days don't go through the Atlanta airport anymore. I haven't been in the Atlanta airport in more than a decade and I do a lot of flying.

[A2]

Well actually you get a layover there only if you fly Delta.  The vast majority of people flying these days don't go through the Atlanta airport anymore.  I haven't been in the Atlanta airport in more than a decade and I do a lot of flying.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this is quite true. However, everytime I fly I find myself in ATL. I have to agree though. Less flights are diverted through ATL as they once were.

I fly Southwest out of RDU and sometimes I will drive to Greensboro to take a flight out. CLT is just too dog gone expensive. B'ham's airport is ok. It is way to close to their center city though off I-59. That is why they have a height restriction in their CBD of 36 floors. B'ham would have had a pretty impressive skyline if they would have moved their airport out of the city (like ATL or CLT). ATL airport is now the busiest in the world. It eclipsed O Hare some time ago. It is by all accounts one massive airport.

[A2]

just wanted to post this. It's a view from Ruffner Mountain. It really does B'ham justice. It really is a special place. I wish private and public support would build to bring back to its glory days of old.

My Webpage

[mjcatl2]

When you look at the population starting in 1950 to present, Mecklenburg county gained almost 75,000 to 100,000 people every decade. That's not luck....thats people in a community working hard, developing a great place to live that attracts others.

I didn't say it was. I was specifically speaking of the banking industry consolidation.

[RiversideGator]

I must say I do get a little tired of the attitude from the Charlotteans re their banks (and yes I know there are other industries in Charlotte). The banking industry consolidation occurred in NC because of the relatively liberal banking laws there as compared to other states in the SE and nation. Charlotte should not delude itself into thinking that it was chosen from on high to be the 2d largest banking capital in the US. This could have happened in Bham, Jacksonville, Atlanta or several other places. Things can change rapidly in business too. Dont be surprised if Bank of America relocates to NYC one day. Charlotte wont dry up, but it will be a huge hit if it happens.

[rockhilljames]

The banking industry consolidation occurred in NC because of the relatively liberal banking laws there as compared to other states in the SE and nation.  Charlotte should not delude itself into thinking that it was chosen from on high to be the 2d largest banking capital in the US.  This could have happened in Bham, Jacksonville, Atlanta or several other places.  Things can change rapidly in business too.  Dont be surprised if Bank of America relocates to NYC one day.  Charlotte wont dry up, but it will be a huge hit if it happens.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The thing that strikes me funny about this is....don't you think that those liberal banking laws were created by design? That is exactly how Charlotte rose to such prominence in the banking world and...that was exactly the plan!!

Ever wonder why Deleware has all those credit card companies? Well, the wrote legislation that made it easier for them to do business there...the result is a LOT of capital around Wilmington.

Give Charlotte some credit, the rise of banking in NC was planned, not an accident. Heck, Winston-Salem was doing pretty well too with Wachovia and BB&T, so it's not like it was just Charlotte.

[krazeeboi]

Well, in regards to numbers, its difficult to directly compare based on city limits because the laws in regards to the areas are different and the sizes change.  You can however compare county size as they stay the same.  And we have this comparison

Jefferson County Population (1113 sq/miles)

1950 - 558,928

1960 - 634,864 +

1970 - 644,991 +

1980 - 671,324 +

1990 - 651,525 -

2000 - 662,047 +

2003 - 658,141 -

Pop Change/53 years = 99,213

Pop Density = 591/sq mile

Mecklenburg County Population (526 sq/miles)

1950 - 197,052

1960 - 272,111 +

1970 - 354,656 +

1980 - 404,270 +

1990 - 511,433 +

2000 - 695,454 +

2003 - 752,366 +

Pop Change/53 years = 555,314

Pop Density = 1430/sq mile

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is my first time seeing these figures for Mecklenburg. Charlotte has grown phenomenally over the past 50+ years, both in population and land area.

[Claws]

I just got done reading an article in AARP the Magazine about racism in the U.S. and how Charlotte has made much progress toward becoming a racially blind city. In the article it drew attention to the fact that cities that handled the civil rights era with a general policy of nonviolence have prospered in today's world--it specifically mentioned Charlotte, Atlanta, Dallas, Nashville, and Jacksonville. It cited Birmingham's violent racial tensions in the 60s as a possible reason it hasn't grown substantially in the past half-century. This seems like a possible contributing factor to me.

[krazeeboi]

Yeah, for some people Birmingham still has that "anti-civil rights" stigma to overcome. And the fact that it's located in a "Deep South" state, with all of the negative connotations attached to that moniker, doesn't really help.

[MeltingHotDogs]

Coming after the Duke Energy/Cinergy deal there may be another Cincinnati company being taken by a Charlotte company. I have heard sevaral people talking about a possible Wachovia buyout of Fifth Third Bank, which isnt to out of the question at all.

So maybe they have moved from Birmingham to Cincinnati.

[A2]

Coming after the Duke Energy/Cinergy deal there may be another Cincinnati company being taken by a Charlotte company. I have heard sevaral people talking about a possible Wachovia buyout of Fifth Third Bank, which isnt to out of the question at all.

So maybe they have moved from Birmingham to Cincinnati.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

While it is concievable that an aquisition could happen w/ Fifth Third bank, I can't see it as their first target. I am supecting someone out west. Rumor mills at the office (I work at Wachovia) suggest Washington Mutual or a merger of equals w/ Wells Fargo. I seriously doubt the WF deal would happen. San Francisco already hates us for plucking BofA from there crown. If we took WF and brought the headquarters to CLT they might send there city leaders to stone us. I think Wachovia will not be interested in buying right now alltogether. They are still working out the kinks w/ the Southtrust deal (and believe me there have been many). I would suspect they will be on the prowl though in mid to late 06'. Small banks watch your backs. In the end there will only be five (maybe ten) banks left in the country. They will all have over a trillion in assets under management. Currently CITI, BofA (CLT bank), and Bank One are at that number. They are all within striking distance of one another. CITI is the largest, but BofA is the largest bank counting only deposits. WB (Wachovia) is tired of being a DISTANT fourth. (and I do mean distant), but for now they must bide their time. As for Duke/Cynergy I think every city is on the prowl for more corporate HQ's. It really is a fierce competition. CLT and Atlanta have really made efforts in the southern states to lure Fortune 500 clubs to their towns. (it is the main thing behind genuine growth)

Here is a list of the top ten cities with Fortune 500 HQ's (notice Atlanta and CLT)

Pretty shocking:

Atlanta is 4th, Charlotte 5th in the entire US. People who say CLT is primarily banking are being misled. While it is our "bread n' butter" it is not the only thing they have their eyes on.

Top Cities (with 7 or more HQ)

Rank City HQ

1

New York City 43

2

Houston 20

3

Atlanta 14

4

Chicago 10

5

Charlotte 8

5

Dallas 8

5

St. Louis 7

8

Cincinnati 7

8

Milwaukee 7

8

Minneapolis 6

8

Philadelphia 6

8

Pittsburgh 6

Here is the ranking breakdown:

Industry

HQ

Industry Rank

Energy Duke Energy 1st

Commercial Banks Bank of America 2nd

Wachovia 5th

Automotive Retailing Sonic Automotive 3rd

Metals Nucor 3rd

Electronics SPX 3rd

Aerospace & Defense Goodrich Corp 10th

General Merchandisers Family Dollar 13th

Specialty Retail Lowe's 3rd

Here is a link if this is not understandable:

http://www.charlottechamber.com/content.cf...2&channel_id=47

[A2]

Here is another great link showing the diverse and powerful CLT economy. If you think about the facts CLT really flies under the radar as compared with the other major cities on the list above.

http://www.charlottechamber.com/content.cf...content_id=1567

[peaceloveunderstanding]

Im suprised how few HQs chicago has.

[A2]

Im suprised how few HQs chicago has.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/quote

I was a little taken back by that too. What is even more shocking is tha LA did not make the cut, nor San Francisco, Miami, or Seattle. Interesting.