First Ward Urban Village / North Tryon Vision Plan

[NYtoCLT]

I actually did email county commissioners and got an almost immediate phone call from Pat Cotham (not her office, her personally, great constituent service).   A couple of notes:

County Commission is not the right organization to direct ire.  Invlivian is not overseen by the county.  Unclear if overseen by City instead or quasi-governmental so not directly accountable to any elected officials, but the City apparently has a more direct relationship than the county.

Apparently Inlivian had been working with the county/city/library/BOA as part of the cohesive North Tryon vision, but pulled out recently so this is not part of the cohesive plan.

As for Hall House itself, the justification is that the floor sizes are too small/ceiling heights too low, so a remodel isn't very likely.  That said, they could double the floor sizes and it would be bigger than a 6 floor apartment.  

 

Tl/DR - Floor height is the issue, but if you still want to see it saved email City Council and Alma Adams (Federal so she can bother HUD), County is not the correct organization.  

[tozmervo]

2 minutes ago, NYtoCLT said:

I actually did email county commissioners and got an almost immediate phone call from Pat Cotham (not her office, her personally, great constituent service).   A couple of notes:

County Commission is not the right organization to direct ire.  Invlivian is not overseen by the county.  Unclear if overseen by City instead or quasi-governmental so not directly accountable to any elected officials, but the City apparently has a more direct relationship than the county.

Apparently Inlivian had been working with the county/city/library/BOA as part of the cohesive North Tryon vision, but pulled out recently so this is not part of the cohesive plan.

As for Hall House itself, the justification is that the floor sizes are too small/ceiling heights too low, so a remodel isn't very likely.  That said, they could double the floor sizes and it would be bigger than a 6 floor apartment.  

 

Tl/DR - Floor height is the issue, but if you still want to see it saved email City Council and Alma Adams (Federal so she can bother HUD), County is not the correct organization.  

I wondered if the floor-to-floor was low, but there are definitely systems that work well in older buildings with low ceilings. 

[tarwater]

How is that the ceiling height was fine in 1940 but not 2020? Did we get that much taller...? Is it a sprinkler system issue maybe?

[NYtoCLT]

It looks like Inlivian has an independent board -- Lucy Brown, Shirley Fulton, Sheila Jones, Leigh Ann Smith, Ray McKinnon, Linda Ashendorf and Michael W. Kennerly.  http://inlivian.com/about/#team

 

It doesn't list emails, but if anyone has their contact info, I would recommend reaching out to them,

[tozmervo]

6 minutes ago, tarwater said:

How is that the ceiling height was fine in 1940 but not 2020? Did we get that much taller...? Is it a sprinkler system issue maybe?

It's a bell curve. Ceiling heights were usually pretty high until the 40s-70s, when they were really low. Economics and material capability factor in, but Air Conditioning also made high ceilings less "needed" for habitation.  

UNCC has been through this. Scott & Holshouser Halls were renovated and both have very low ceilings. The school's experience with those renovations was not good, so they decided that Moore & Sanford Halls (which are the same design, all 4 were built in late 60s) would be torn down. Moore has been torn down, Sanford is still standing for now. I don't know the specifics of what happened that made the renovations a poor experience, but it can be very expensive. Cramming proper mechanical systems in, along with plumbing and sprinklers, can result in some exceptionally low ceilings. 

Edited May 29, 2020 by tozmervo

[Rufus]

21 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

It's a bell curve. Ceiling heights were usually pretty high until the 40s-70s, when they were really low. Economics and material capability factor in, but Air Conditioning also made high ceilings less "needed" for habitation.  

UNCC has been through this. Scott & Holshouser Halls were renovated and both have very low ceilings. The school's experience with those renovations was not good, so they decided that Moore & Sanford Halls (which are the same design, all 4 were built in late 60s) would be torn down. Moore has been torn down, Sanford is still standing for now. I don't know the specifics of what happened that made the renovations a poor experience, but it can be very expensive. Cramming proper mechanical systems in, along with plumbing and sprinklers, can result in some exceptionally low ceilings. 

Weren't the dorms built in the 60s and 70s? I just don't understand the logic in that it is too low ceilings when countless hotels in other NC cities have been rehabbed from older buildings similar to Hall House: Hotel Indigo and Cardinal Hotel in W/S, 21c Hotel in Durham, others in Asheville. 

This just seems like a capacity issue with Inlivian instead of a structural issue.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Rufus

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, NYtoCLT said:

I actually did email county commissioners and got an almost immediate phone call from Pat Cotham (not her office, her personally, great constituent service).   A couple of notes:

County Commission is not the right organization to direct ire.  Invlivian is not overseen by the county.  Unclear if overseen by City instead or quasi-governmental so not directly accountable to any elected officials, but the City apparently has a more direct relationship than the county.

Apparently Inlivian had been working with the county/city/library/BOA as part of the cohesive North Tryon vision, but pulled out recently so this is not part of the cohesive plan.

As for Hall House itself, the justification is that the floor sizes are too small/ceiling heights too low, so a remodel isn't very likely.  That said, they could double the floor sizes and it would be bigger than a 6 floor apartment.  

 

Tl/DR - Floor height is the issue, but if you still want to see it saved email City Council and Alma Adams (Federal so she can bother HUD), County is not the correct organization.  

I'm working on organizing a community Zoom with Inlivian and the County and cititzens.

[NYtoCLT]

12 minutes ago, Tyree Ricardo said:

I'm working on organizing a community Zoom with Inlivian and the County and cititzens.

Great, hopefully if there is enough outrage, they'll reconsider. 

It might be worth seeing if anyone can look into how other places have addressed the low floor to floor ratio for other projects in other cities since that seems to be one of the arguments they are going to make.  

[cltbwimob]

1 hour ago, NYtoCLT said:

I actually did email county commissioners and got an almost immediate phone call from Pat Cotham (not her office, her personally, great constituent service).   A couple of notes:

County Commission is not the right organization to direct ire.  Invlivian is not overseen by the county.  Unclear if overseen by City instead or quasi-governmental so not directly accountable to any elected officials, but the City apparently has a more direct relationship than the county.

Apparently Inlivian had been working with the county/city/library/BOA as part of the cohesive North Tryon vision, but pulled out recently so this is not part of the cohesive plan.

As for Hall House itself, the justification is that the floor sizes are too small/ceiling heights too low, so a remodel isn't very likely.  That said, they could double the floor sizes and it would be bigger than a 6 floor apartment.  

 

Tl/DR - Floor height is the issue, but if you still want to see it saved email City Council and Alma Adams (Federal so she can bother HUD), County is not the correct organization.  

Somebody correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe the County commission does actually have a lot of influence over this despit Pat Cothams deflection.  While they don’t directly control Inlivan, they do decide how the 14.5 mil they received from a land sale would be allocated and one of the options is this Inlivian proposal, or they can choose to redirect that money the BofA spearheaded efforts outside uptown that would yield a lot more units elsewhere.  Plus Inlivian is asking for an additional $6mil of additional public funding for the proposal.  So unless I am mistaken, the county commission can pretty much kill this proposal by choosing not to fund Inlivian’s Scheme.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article242815616.html

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article243026506.html

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by cltbwimob

[tozmervo]

33 minutes ago, Rufus said:

Weren't the dorms built in the 60s and 70s? I just don't understand the logic in that it is too low ceilings when countless hotels in other NC cities have been rehabbed from older buildings similar to Hall House: Hotel Indigo and Cardinal Hotel in W/S, 21c Hotel in Durham, others in Asheville. 

This just seems like a capacity issue with Inlivian instead of a structural issue.

That's what I'm saying. It can be done.

[cltbwimob]

So by my count we have 3 commissioners probably voting for the Inlivian proposal (Susan Harden, Mark Jerrell, and Pat Cotham), and 1 in the probably against category (Trevor Fuller).* There are 5 other commissioners out there, we need to win over 4 of them.  Vote is Tuesday night.  Let’s all show up en masse (virtually) for the vote.

*Based on various sources 

Edited May 29, 2020 by cltbwimob

[B Randy]

2 hours ago, Rufus said:

Weren't the dorms built in the 60s and 70s? I just don't understand the logic in that it is too low ceilings when countless hotels in other NC cities have been rehabbed from older buildings similar to Hall House: Hotel Indigo and Cardinal Hotel in W/S, 21c Hotel in Durham, others in Asheville. 

This just seems like a capacity issue with Inlivian instead of a structural issue.

This is correct. 100%

It is prioritizing their basic business model and limited capacity for creative development over:

1) More impactful, multi-pronged affordable housing outcomes.

2) The vibrancy, scale and authenticity of our Uptown and Tryon St.

 

[CLT>]

I had a good conversation with Commissioner Jerrell, and we talked for about 20min about both the need for affordable housing uptown, and the importance of  the Hall House property. Right now he said they haven't really talked as commissioners so he's not sure where everyone stands, but he said the chance to get 700 units of affordable housing is very hard to turn down from his perspective.

I pitched a proposal to him that since the county has 11 acres of idle land 2 blocks away, that they do a land swap of the same size parcel with Inlivian, and let them build their project as they want to, holding onto their land in perpetuity. The county then controls the Hall House property and can then either combine it with the masterplan of the rest of the block, or sell the property on the open market. That way it's a win win for everyone, knowing that some giant county masterplan would take years for the Hal Marshal site, and it would further activate North Tryon to the north. He said he would bring it up in good faith with some of the folks at Inlivian.

The fire under everyone currently is now from BofA which wants to get the multi parcel development going asap, and their contribution of money is key to making the uptown and other scattered site projects work. Inlivian pulled out of the original deal because they suddenly decided owning their real estate was more important than contributing it to a bigger development and not getting lifetime affordable units.

But Commissioner Cotham was definitely wrong, those who hold the purse strings have the control. So email or call your commissioners and let them know how you feel. It's also important to remember that 700 units are a hell of a lot of affordable housing units so it's a tough thing for commissioners to vote against, so they need to have a viable alternative. They only need 5 yes votes.

[B Randy]

2 minutes ago, CLT> said:

I had a good conversation with Commissioner Jerrell, and we talked for about 20min about both the need for affordable housing uptown, and the importance of  the Hall House property. Right now he said they haven't really talked as commissioners so he's not sure where everyone stands, but he said the chance to get 700 units of affordable housing is very hard to turn down from his perspective.

I pitched a proposal to him that since the county has 11 acres of idle land 2 blocks away, that they do a land swap of the same size parcel with Inlivian, and let them build their project as they want to, holding onto their land in perpetuity. The county then controls the Hall House property and can then either combine it with the masterplan of the rest of the block, or sell the property on the open market. That way it's a win win for everyone, knowing that some giant county masterplan would take years for the Hal Marshal site, and it would further activate North Tryon to the north. He said he would bring it up in good faith with some of the folks at Inlivian.

The fire under everyone currently is now from BofA which wants to get the multi parcel development going asap, and their contribution of money is key to making the uptown and other scattered site projects work. Inlivian pulled out of the original deal because they suddenly decided owning their real estate was more important than contributing it to a bigger development and not getting lifetime affordable units.

But Commissioner Cotham was definitely wrong, those who hold the purse strings have the control. So email or call your commissioners and let them know how you feel. It's also important to remember that 700 units are a hell of a lot of affordable housing units so it's a tough thing for commissioners to vote against, so they need to have a viable alternative. They only need 5 yes votes.

100%

[NYtoCLT]

Did everyone else realize that Inlivian's offices are on East Blvd is Dilworth?  If they are really concerned with putting affordable housing in neighborhoods that need it, they would do a land swap with this parcel and move their offices to a less expensive neighborhood.  I am sure they could find suitable office space in North Tryon.

[Niner National]

Any chance we can get the protests moved to first ward park? In the event they turn destructive maybe we can channel that destruction on Levine’s parking deck.

[go_vertical]

I can bring the sledgehammers.

[kermit]

11 hours ago, Niner National said:

Any chance we can get the protests moved to first ward park? In the event they turn destructive maybe we can channel that destruction on Levine’s parking deck.

 

 

[cltbwimob]

On 5/29/2020 at 6:32 PM, CLT> said:

I had a good conversation with Commissioner Jerrell, and we talked for about 20min about both the need for affordable housing uptown, and the importance of  the Hall House property. Right now he said they haven't really talked as commissioners so he's not sure where everyone stands, but he said the chance to get 700 units of affordable housing is very hard to turn down from his perspective.

I pitched a proposal to him that since the county has 11 acres of idle land 2 blocks away, that they do a land swap of the same size parcel with Inlivian, and let them build their project as they want to, holding onto their land in perpetuity. The county then controls the Hall House property and can then either combine it with the masterplan of the rest of the block, or sell the property on the open market. That way it's a win win for everyone, knowing that some giant county masterplan would take years for the Hal Marshal site, and it would further activate North Tryon to the north. He said he would bring it up in good faith with some of the folks at Inlivian.

The fire under everyone currently is now from BofA which wants to get the multi parcel development going asap, and their contribution of money is key to making the uptown and other scattered site projects work. Inlivian pulled out of the original deal because they suddenly decided owning their real estate was more important than contributing it to a bigger development and not getting lifetime affordable units.

But Commissioner Cotham was definitely wrong, those who hold the purse strings have the control. So email or call your commissioners and let them know how you feel. It's also important to remember that 700 units are a hell of a lot of affordable housing units so it's a tough thing for commissioners to vote against, so they need to have a viable alternative. They only need 5 yes votes.

The land swap idea is a great idea.  Win-win for everyone.  Is there any way some of our local development influencers over CLT development to maybe nudge this idea along? Also was there ever any traction on getting a Zoom meeting set up with Inlivian for this thing.  I know life has been even crazier than usual for the past couple of days, but the vote takes place tomorrow.

[KJHburg]

Council votes narrowly for option A of the 7th and N Tryon block  Ashley with the Biz Journal is the source of this on twitter

There's $18.7M in funds available to go toward affordable housing. Here's a matrix that shows how those dollars could be spent.

 

 

Edited June 2, 2020 by KJHburg

[B Randy]

25 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

Council votes narrowly for option A of the 7th and N Tryon block  Ashley with the Biz Journal is the source of this on twitter

There's $18.7M in funds available to go toward affordable housing. Here's a matrix that shows how those dollars could be spent.

 

 

Option 3 approved.  Best use of $ and maintains affordable on the original "project" site.  That's a win.

MOU also approved w/ developer - so this should finally progress in coming months...

[navigator319]

So did the idiotic plan for Hall House die?

[cltbwimob]

17 minutes ago, navigator319 said:

So did the idiotic plan for Hall House die?

Nope...alive and well.

Not a single commissioner spoke of the Hall House and how it would get demolished.  I guess the good news is that the MOU has a supplemental amendment in it that requires that the county coordinate with Inlivian on their proposal, and any negotiation with Inlivian can include conditions on the money.  So there is a chance that once they start coordinating with Inlivian, a clause to protect the Hall House could pop up or perhaps the land swap that CLT> mentioned could be negotiated.  But tonight the commission voted to give the money to Inlivian.

Edited June 3, 2020 by cltbwimob

[B Randy]

27 minutes ago, cltbwimob said:

Nope...alive and well.

Not a single commissioner spoke of the Hall House and how it would get demolished.  I guess the good news is that the MOU has a supplemental amendment in it that requires that the county coordinate with Inlivian on their proposal, and any negotiation with Inlivian can include conditions on the money.  So there is a chance that once they start coordinating with Inlivian, a clause to protect the Hall House could pop up or perhaps the land swap that CLT> mentioned could be negotiated.  But tonight the commission voted to give the money to Inlivian.

Inlivian will have to come back to the Commission to finalize the $6mil.  

So the time to protect Hall House is in the lead up to that meeting. 

[Guest]

So did the idiotic plan for Hall House die?

Hall house is gone. I’m going to try, but boy are there big names in the community in support of this.

 

 

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Hall house is gone. I’m going to try, but boy are there big names in the community in support of this.
 
 
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