First Ward Urban Village / North Tryon Vision Plan

[CharlotteWkndBuzz]

Horrible spot (currently). This is just as bad as the “proposed” high rise next to the factory/277 at the music factory. The homeless run that stretch of Tryon and under those bridges. Any project on that side of town is a plus and will accompany the N Tryon vision but whew boy, there’s still so many lots uptown that would be better options. Affordable housing may work there but otherwise good luck trying to charge $1500+ for a one bedroom at that spot. 
 

*why the confusion? It’s a bad location (currently ). Has potential. 

Edited July 28, 2020 by CharlotteWkndBuzz

[kermit]

I wonder what Danny L is thinking as he watches apartments get built all around his blight?

[cltcane]

51 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

Yes an apartment complex has been submitted for approval to Char Meck on that site.  That is probably the highest and best use due to the fact office tenants I dont think would cross 277 as many dont want to go up that far on N Tryon now.

Sounds like a perfect spot for Inlivian.  Land swap?

[kermit]

Nicely done Clay! 

Quote

But a “Save the Hall House” campaign led by Clayton Sealey, a local creative director and social media manager, says affordable housing can still be built on the site while preserving the historic hotel. Sealey runs the social media page CLT Development devoted to Charlotte development and urban planning news.

[...]

Sealey acknowledged the challenges with the building, but said the site is large enough to accommodate both a refurbished hotel and an affordable housing development, if it were built more densely.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/biz-columns-blogs/development/article244584007.html

Edited August 1, 2020 by kermit

[cltbwimob]

3 hours ago, kermit said:

Nicely done Clay! (I am sure you assembled all of this press)

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/biz-columns-blogs/development/article244584007.html

Keep the pressure up...this building must not be destroyed.  

[southernnorthcarolina]

 

Were I a hard-core preservationist (spoiler alert:  I' m not), I don't think the Barringer Hotel/Hall House is the hill I'd die on.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but the beholder would have to be under the influence of some pretty strong "feel good" drugs to see this building as anything other than one of ordinary, utilitarian design, rendered in cheap materials.  "Art Deco" elements?  Please.  A concrete first and second floor facade tacked onto an otherwise perfectly plain box built of the most common brick (a particularly ugly and gloomy dark maroon which I can only surmise must have been on sale) does not suffice as an Art Deco design element.  This decorative (to be charitable) feature, the only attempt at distinctiveness on the building, is precast concrete rather than marble, granite, or even limestone or terra cotta.  But the dead giveaway of a cheap mindset is the fact that it extends only part-way down the sides, and not at all to the rear of the building.  It's rather like a tract house which has faux shutters on the windows facing the street, but not on windows on the sides or rear.

Age alone does not qualify a building for historical significance.  The Barringer was completed in 1940, so probably designed in 1939.  It was at the end of the Art Deco era.  It might have ben interesting had it been designed in the "Streamline" (a late Art Deco offshoot) mode, but of course, no such luck.  We can lament what might have been, but we must deal with what was actually built.  As it stands now, or even if it were gutted and renovated, it's more of an impediment to adjacent development that a stimulant.

It needs to be blowed up real good.

 

[KJHburg]

the problem is that we have only a few high rise buildings left this old.  We lost the Polk and this old hotel is all brick and they want to replace with stick built siding 6 story building which is ridiculous.  As I have said many times in NO other NC city would this building even be considered to be torn down only here in Charlotte.  So you would replace a building that has stood for 80 years with a low rise stick built that won't ever last that long? 

[TCLT]

Is turning Hall House into another boutique luxury hotel really going to contribute something meaningful to uptown? We already have two of those in historic buildings. Is there another feasible option for how to use this tower? Aside from it simply being old, this building is historically insignificant and architecturally unremarkable. Is having a gutted and updated old building only accessible to the affluent really going to improve north Tryon? Stick built apartments might be disappointing from a development perspective, but it’ll add full time residents (and desperately needed affordable housing) and approachable retail to the whole block. I think that’ll be more beneficial to this area of uptown than another high end hotel. I hate seeing Charlotte’s already small stock of old buildings dwindle further but I think I’ve been convinced that this one isn’t the hill to die on.

[Synopsis101]

39 minutes ago, TCLT said:

Is turning Hall House into another boutique luxury hotel really going to contribute something meaningful to uptown? We already have two of those in historic buildings. Is there another feasible option for how to use this tower? Aside from it simply being old, this building is historically insignificant and architecturally unremarkable. Is having a gutted and updated old building only accessible to the affluent really going to improve north Tryon? Stick built apartments might be disappointing from a development perspective, but it’ll add full time residents (and desperately needed affordable housing) and approachable retail to the whole block. I think that’ll be more beneficial to this area of uptown than another high end hotel. I hate seeing Charlotte’s already small stock of old buildings dwindle further but I think I’ve been convinced that this one isn’t the hill to die on.

We said the same thing about Polk. Which one is the hill to die on?

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

41 minutes ago, TCLT said:

Is turning Hall House into another boutique luxury hotel really going to contribute something meaningful to uptown? We already have two of those in historic buildings. Is there another feasible option for how to use this tower? Aside from it simply being old, this building is historically insignificant and architecturally unremarkable. Is having a gutted and updated old building only accessible to the affluent really going to improve north Tryon? Stick built apartments might be disappointing from a development perspective, but it’ll add full time residents (and desperately needed affordable housing) and approachable retail to the whole block. I think that’ll be more beneficial to this area of uptown than another high end hotel. I hate seeing Charlotte’s already small stock of old buildings dwindle further but I think I’ve been convinced that this one isn’t the hill to die on.

Building stick housing with less density so close to Trade and Tryon is an abomination. There are plenty of areas where this can be built, a surface lot potentially. When there are people willing to rehab the building, a city organization shouldn't subsiding its destruction. 

3 minutes ago, Synopsis101 said:

We said the same thing about Polk. Which one is the hill to die on?

Exactly, why care about design and history at all? 

[TCLT]

Exactly, why care about design and history at all? 

What is so significant about the design and history of this building that makes it worth saving though? Simply that it is old?

Uptown is so far gone as far as historic buildings go that keeping this one around isn’t going to create any kind of real character for the area when it’s going to be surrounded by glass towers and stick built apartments. Would it be nice to keep it, yeah for sure. But I think getting more residents uptown, and affordable units especially, faster is better for the city than turning an old building into a place for rich visitors to play. Those residents will add more life to an area that desperately needs it. And with travel, especially high end business travel, looking to be depressed for years potentially how long is it going to take for funding to actually show up to rehab this building into a hotel? We already have at least 2 stalled hotel projects and the intercontinental is inching along.

We said the same thing about Polk. Which one is the hill to die on?

I think that should’ve been the hill. Bringing that down to put up another cookie cutter market rate luxury apartment complex was a huge waste. At least this one brings some affordable housing to the table.

[B Randy]

9 minutes ago, TCLT said:

What is so significant about the design and history of this building that makes it worth saving though? Simply that it is old?

Uptown is so far gone as far as historic buildings go that keeping this one around isn’t going to create any kind of real character for the area when it’s going to be surrounded by glass towers and stick built apartments. Would it be nice to keep it, yeah for sure. But I think getting more residents uptown, and affordable units especially, faster is better for the city than turning an old building into a place for rich visitors to play. Those residents will add more life to an area that desperately needs it. And with travel, especially high end business travel, looking to be depressed for years potentially how long is it going to take for funding to actually show up to rehab this building into a hotel? We already have at least 2 stalled hotel projects and the intercontinental is inching along.
I think that should’ve been the hill. Bringing that down to put up another cookie cutter market rate luxury apartment complex was a huge waste. At least this one brings some affordable housing to the table.

Somewhat thinking this is a troll...

If not...historic qualities in a vacuum  are not the issue here...It’s about the scale (12 vs 6 floors), the materiality (solid masonry vs wood/who knows what combo of cheaper facade materials), the fact that Charlotte, as a maturing downtown, should have more than two boutique hotels...that Uptown needs to add the nightlife, vibrancy and  restaurants that another one off hotel will incorporate...and the fact that this building as it sits has the ability to be a signature piece of Uptown if developed correctly, instead of what will always be a missed opportunity and an obvious sacrifice of enduring and quality urbanism for near term pro forma thinking...

I’m all for affordable housing - we need it badly...but this approach to creating it is really immature when taken in context.

 

[TCLT]

Somewhat thinking this is a troll...
If not...historic qualities in a vacuum  are not the issue here...It’s about the scale (12 vs 6 floors), the materiality (solid masonry vs wood/who knows what combo of cheaper facade materials), the fact that Charlotte, as a maturing downtown, should have more than two boutique hotels...that Uptown needs to add the nightlife, vibrancy and  restaurants that another one off hotel will incorporate...and the fact that this building as it sits has the ability to be a signature piece of Uptown if developed correctly, instead of what will always be a missed opportunity and an obvious sacrifice of enduring and quality urbanism for near term pro forma thinking...
I’m all for affordable housing - we need it badly...but this approach to creating it is really immature when taken in context.
 

Im not trolling and I’m not sure what about my posts would suggest I was. This is a sincere opinion. And I understand the arguments for saving it. I just feel that getting affordable housing and full time residents is more important than preserving the building for a hotel rehab. I get that people won’t agree with that. If there was money and a partner available now to cover the cost of the rehab AND the cost of doubling the height of Inlivian’s building to get the same number of units and make the economics of making some affordable work then I’d be 100% against demolishing it. But that’s not the situation. It’s possible Inlivian actually just lacks vision and is being small minded, and maybe I am too. But I care more about just getting the housing units built as soon as possible. Any delay now, with the economy deteriorating, could stall this project for years. And that’s worse for uptown than losing an old building, even if it’s a quality building.

[atlrvr]

I'd prefer to see it saved...that said, I can't make an educated opinion until I know what a hotel developer would pay for the site with the stipulation that it's saved.

I do think it's a shame that Clayton's article suggested a higher density project on the same site, because Inlivian can easily defeat that argument in showing the cost per unit differential, as it certainly is not a viable option (as opposed to a land swap with with the County), unless a hotel developer is willing to pay a lot for the hall house as is.

[B Randy]

51 minutes ago, atlrvr said:

I'd prefer to see it saved...that said, I can't make an educated opinion until I know what a hotel developer would pay for the site with the stipulation that it's saved.

I do think it's a shame that Clayton's article suggested a higher density project on the same site, because Inlivian can easily defeat that argument in showing the cost per unit differential, as it certainly is not a viable option (as opposed to a land swap with with the County), unless a hotel developer is willing to pay a lot for the hall house as is.

Both comments above true.  No offense meant.  

I agree, don’t think Inlivian would go to different (taller) construction type w/o another bucket of public money being dropped on their doorstep. Totally get the current $ realities.  

However, if Inlivian was so concerned about getting a quality affordable housing project done quickly w economic realities of their site...they wouldn’t have pulled their land from the original two block project.  If they were really concerned about honoring the Hall House - they would have swallowed their pride and stayed in for the good of our city.  They did not. 

Agree to disagree - but I’d counter that a 25 yr, 6 story Bldg on our signature street, instead of an enduring 12 story bldg w character (for Charlotte) isn’t worth the likely nominally accelerated timeline.

[TheMightyBK]

Isn't the facade being saved?  I thought I read that, but I could be misremebering.  If it is, I'm cool with that.  I'm sure the interior is all but useless as far as adaptive reuse goes.  But I'm pro-preservation of anything that has even slightly interesting architectural features.  I think this thing's front elevation passes muster in the "it's just different than glass" category, so I do hope it sticks around.  It's not exactly eye candy, but it is visually interesting-ish.  

[Guest]

5 hours ago, atlrvr said:

I'd prefer to see it saved...that said, I can't make an educated opinion until I know what a hotel developer would pay for the site with the stipulation that it's saved.

I do think it's a shame that Clayton's article suggested a higher density project on the same site, because Inlivian can easily defeat that argument in showing the cost per unit differential, as it certainly is not a viable option (as opposed to a land swap with with the County), unless a hotel developer is willing to pay a lot for the hall house as is.

yea... I'm on the landswap side... that part of the interview I had with the observer was not mentioned. Its what I'm pushing hard on social media, the 11.67 acres of land at Hal Marshall, and the numerous hotel developers who have contacted me.

That said, having talked to the architect, developer, city and county in this endeavor, they are not going to budge on the affordable housing being housed anywhere other than within the 8th and tryon parcel.

2 hours ago, TheMightyBK said:

Isn't the facade being saved?  I thought I read that, but I could be misremebering.  If it is, I'm cool with that.  I'm sure the interior is all but useless as far as adaptive reuse goes.  But I'm pro-preservation of anything that has even slightly interesting architectural features.  I think this thing's front elevation passes muster in the "it's just different than glass" category, so I do hope it sticks around.  It's not exactly eye candy, but it is visually interesting-ish.  

facade being saved means nothing when they complain about the floor heights being too short, it means you could never save the windows, or the brick, only the bottom floor, which is just cast concrete and limestone.

Edited August 2, 2020 by Guest

[cltbwimob]

6 hours ago, Tyree Ricardo said:

yea... I'm on the landswap side... that part of the interview I had with the observer was not mentioned. Its what I'm pushing hard on social media, the 11.67 acres of land at Hal Marshall, and the numerous hotel developers who have contacted me.

That said, having talked to the architect, developer, city and county in this endeavor, they are not going to budge on the affordable housing being housed anywhere other than within the 8th and tryon parcel.

Perfect...

So there is a viable path to saving this building by selling it to a hotel developer, several of whom are interested.  And there is developable county owned land just 2 blocks North, which Inlivian could probably get for free or minimum charge.  So they could sell the building and the land that it’s on and build some additional capital for their affordable housing project, but rather than do that they are going to forego the money they could get from a sale of Hall House, use some of their funds (which include taxpayer money) to raze Hall House, and completely ignore the presumably much cheaper option of the Hal Marshall site (which is county owned and wouldn’t require a complicated demolition).

Sounds like a healthy dose of obstinance, hubris, and institutional narcissism mixed with a bit of bad stewardship of taxpayer funds.

Edit: BTW, once Silver Line arrives, the Hal Marshall site will actually have better transit access than the Hall House site (given that both sites are roughly equidistant from the Blue Line but Hal Marshall is closer to the Silver Line route), and I thought one of the reasons the Hall House was considered to be the perfect site for this housing development was due to its convenient access to transit.

 

Edited August 2, 2020 by cltbwimob

[Cityplanner]

I’ve been inside Hall House (church volunteer event) and I didn’t find it memorable.  Nor is the exterior memorable.    A better building could be built there.  But affordable housing?  On a prime street?  That’s not the best use of valuable real estate.  Sell the land to a developer and use the profits to build more or nicer public housing on less-expensive land.

[KJHburg]

Here is a pretty detailed description of the Barringer Hotel aka Hall Hotel.  Remember CHA used it is house seniors while Edwin Towers was under renovation.  They then left the building abandoned by a decade.  They will never take care of this stick built building that propose all you have to look at is how they treated this tower. I am sure when CHA Inlivian was using this building there were minimal repairs or min. restoration done but that does not mean it could not be restored.   When it opened this was a great hotel.

https://files.nc.gov/ncdcr/nr/MK2935.pdf

and yes that is a terrible spot to build a low density apartment complex just because they own the land.  The county owns the next 2 blocks up Tryon and it is a parking lots why not build there and sell this property and let someone build something or renovate it?  I know the CHA Inlivian does not have the money to renovate this hotel but sell it to someone who does.  It is very shortsighted 

[DMann]

I have stayed at a 21cMuseum hotel in Nashville and Durham.  This property is exactly the type that they look for, and their hotels are pretty great.  Would love to see them pick this up and add to their stable.

 

[KJHburg]

Even a Hotel Indigo looks for older buildings like this recently opened one in downtown Winston in the Pepper Building built in 1928.  Photo from last month.  I guess this rather "bland" building would have be torn down in Charlotte but not in Winston.   Honestly it looks like a shorter version different brick color of the Hall House aka Barringer Hotel. 

 

[CharlotteWkndBuzz]

I love the 336. Best city outside of the 704. 

[Cityplanner]

I don’t see what about Hall House is worth saving AS LONG AS a high-quality new building is built on the site.  Neither the interior nor the exterior is interesting, and a block in a commercial area in Manhattan is likely to have numerous buildings like that (and many older and more elaborate ones).  Old doesn’t automatically mean good.  

[CLT704]

55 minutes ago, Cityplanner said:

I don’t see what about Hall House is worth saving AS LONG AS a high-quality new building is built on the site.  Neither the interior nor the exterior is interesting, and a block in a commercial area in Manhattan is likely to have numerous buildings like that (and many older and more elaborate ones).  Old doesn’t automatically mean good.  

It is unique to Charlotte, a rarity when so many historic buildings have been torn down. It adds character and authenticity to our city.