First Ward Urban Village / North Tryon Vision Plan

[carolina_fan]

Yes, he's that rich.

When Atlanta has people that rich, they get Aquariums built for them. We get parking lots.

Levine is a relatively young guy...so he still has decades to work on those parking lots and build an Aquarium too.

Edited June 27, 2007 by bja

[cltheel.sdl]

How many different parcels does Levine own? Can someone post a map showing what he owns please?

[rooster8]

I did a 30 second map in Paint:

Red - Levine owned

Blue - Hal Marhshall - soon to be Levine owned

Brown - Other owners

Green - UNC Charlotte

I probably missed quite a few, but this gives you an idea.

[cltheel.sdl]

That is a LOT of land. Well, I know we hate him now, but when Levine finally does develop his land some 20+ years from, we will love him because that will probably be some of the last developable land Uptown. Also, the incredible land prices will require some intense density, so I'm sure we will all like that. Let's just forget about Levine for a few years so we don't get depressed.

[Justadude]

^ In the meantime, though, this is going to really stunt the development of N. Tryon. Lots of potential in that area, but not many people are going to want to live or work next to a bunch of parking lots, vagrants, and empty buildings.

Maybe we can call it the Parking Lot District and market it to tourists.

[nowensone]

I guess a side benefit of his "strategy" would be that he is causing more density than would otherwise occur naturally..

[cltheel.sdl]

^ In the meantime, though, this is going to really stunt the development of N. Tryon. Lots of potential in that area, but not many people are going to want to live or work next to a bunch of parking lots, vagrants, and empty buildings.

Maybe we can call it the Parking Lot District and market it to tourists.

This is true. I wonder how residents of Courtside feel about the separation between them and Tryon by all those parking lots. I'm sure it must take away some part of that urban experience they paid for.

[Raintree21]

^ In the meantime, though, this is going to really stunt the development of N. Tryon. Lots of potential in that area, but not many people are going to want to live or work next to a bunch of parking lots, vagrants, and empty buildings.

Maybe we can call it the Parking Lot District and market it to tourists.

This is where Urban Ministries does their daily feedings of the homeless, right in front of the Hal Marshall building. Then you have their headquarters 2 blocks away and the Uptown Men's Shelter a block away from that on Tryon.

[gooleyguy]

This is where Urban Ministries does their daily feedings of the homeless, right in front of the Hal Marshall building. Then you have their headquarters 2 blocks away and the Uptown Men's Shelter a block away from that on Tryon.

These people have to go somewhere. Do they not?

[gooleyguy]

Levines offer to the county will be overturned and 1 of 2 things will happen on July 2:

1. He have to pay more for it.

2. He will lose the property to a person who will develop it immediately.

Wish us luck...........

[dubone]

LUCK!

Please someone bid higher, keep it out of the hands of Danny Boy and redevelop that land. There is no reason that the county offices couldn't move sooner, either to temporary space, or to semi-finished space in the Freedom Mall.

It would be catastrophic for the goal of connecting First and Fourth Wards if Hal Marshall fell in the hands of the Levine.

[carolina_fan]

Levines offer to the county will be overturned and 1 of 2 things will happen on July 2:

1. He have to pay more for it.

2. He will lose the property to a person who will develop it immediately.

Wish us luck...........

So the clock doesn't get reset with each upset bid?

[Justadude]

These people have to go somewhere. Do they not?

Absolutely, and I didn't mean to imply that we should discourage Urban Ministries from doing their work. But from the point of view of residents/workers/visitors, a crowd of homeless people standing in an empty parking lot next to a government building is about as stereotypically "ugly urban" as you can get. I would much, much rather UM have a decent location to do their work (one of the churches would be ideal) and that the 1st Ward properties be developed into something that doesn't scare off foot traffic.

I'm reasonably fearless when it comes to urban exploration, but even I don't feel entirely comfortable crossing the Levine-owned parts of 1st Ward when it's just me and a crowd of homeless.

[dubone]

That reminds me. Why on earth did the county not plan to keep the land under the grove of trees near 9th and College? That would be a perfect spot for a pocket park. All they would need to do was not sell that land with the rest.

It is omissions like that that prevents Charlotte from having enough parkland. There is just no foresight. Now, we get a grove of 80 year old trees mowed down for a development or a parking lot, as Levine will certainly do, and in 15 years we will be wondering where those people will go for parks.

[atlrvr]

Maybe Levine will incorporate it into a "square" (see the Novare 3rd Ward thread for further fascination), and can self proclaim it Levine Square......he could plaza over the southern edge, where it is just grass, and put in a large fountain with a likeness of him projecting water through his pursed lips.

[dubone]

He could also pave it with the rubble from all of the antique buildings he has let fall into disrepair so that he can tear them down with an excuse. There could be a Treloar section, the Carey/Dixies section, the McNeil section, etc.

[zvyozd]

First of all, let me say you all are hilarious.

Some of you are on target, some are way off.

Not sure what the ramifications of my posting will be, so I would appreciate discretion, but I felt like I had to defend the Levines somewhat.

I am new to the development/planning world in general, so if my replies are misinformed or uninformed, please feel free to let me know. They are only my opinions.

The problem with these kind of reports is that they are never binding and have little political teeth. In fact, the client for this report is Center City Partners, who have no real muscle anyways with the city. Levine did participate in the planning process and it will really be up to him and other corporate entities (see BofA) to see this plan to fruition.

That's always been the problem with this city. The city doesn't drive investments, they let the private development community take charge, and adapt their plans accordingly. Therefore, we don't have unique cultural investments, but a convenient/efficient gift from a corporate benefactor.

Agreed. Not only do they not drive investments, but, it could almost be argued, actively prohibit them. Try being told by 3 different departments what kind of setback you actually need for UR-1 zoning. It's a ridiculous clustersomething.

did levine send the request for parking deck funding through carrier pigeon? that would allow it to fit into his 2398 AD timeframe for building with the Oxygen Store and Cooling-suit Tailor shop (to offset the effects of global warming) named as possible tenants.

Very funny. Again, try working with the city's review process sometime. You would pull your hair out, if your hair hadn't fallen out by the time they got back to you.

"i hope mr. levine doesn't use the internet, we sure are mean about him quite a bit."

I believe he loves the Internet. Or as I call it, the Intertron.

"I'm sure he just chuckles. He knows he's in the catbird's seat. Wait until Epicentre opens and his land price probably doubles."

Warmer...

"that question has been asked in random threads in the last few weeks, but no one knows the answer.

That block used to be a City owned lot used for bus parking, but was sold as part of the arena financing. by all accounts, Levine Properties purchased the land. the grading appears to just be a fancy repaving of the surface lot, with trees and fencing added, but i'm not sure. i seriously doubt we're seeing anything built on that block, though."

I do (know). You will. Be even more patient than you already are.

"Exactly. What a friggin' tool !"

That's a bit uncalled for. You don't even know the man.

"I agree that for the most part, he is smart to wait. As long as he is covering his taxes with his parking revenue, then he can just retain the land for posterity, as he is clearly planning to do. Eventually, I'm sure he'd like to experience more revenue from the land through development, but he wants to maximize public investment by waiting until the political climate allows for funding of a park.

In some very specific cases, I'm relieved that he HASN'T done anything with his land. At least at the moment we will still have two blocks of natural land with grass and trees between Brevard, Caldwell, 7th and 9th. His plans will replace that defacto parkland/open space with development. He will replace it with a park west of Brevard that will actually be smaller than the current open space. Also, Levine now plans to tear down his historic buildings, such as Treloar, the building that Dixies is in, and old warehouse at 8th on the Trolley Tracks. Hopefully, by delaying, some alternatives can be found for saving those buildings.

As long as Furman continues to expand the First Ward neighborhood south, I am content with Levine's land sitting idle. Hopefully, something will fill in parking lots between Courtside and the trolley tracks on the non-Levine land south of 7th. That way we have contiguous connection. Eventually, Levine will build something, because the taxes on his land will be too much for the land to sit undeveloped.

I just hope he partners with someone with more experience in building quality development. His projects around Matthews are not that impressive."

Warmer...

(I'm not personally a huge fan of the Matthews projects, either, BTW, but they fit the demographic and use there).

"Well said. I was thinking the exact same stuff, except I didn't know about the Matthews projects. Also Elric is right on. If Levine waits, his property can only go up in $. And it's not like we really need more development Uptown at this moment. It's kinda nice knowing there's a project waiting when other projects subside."

Warmer...

"BTW, does anyone know what Dan Levine looks like?"

Yes.

"I still worry about the Treloar House. For all that Dan says about its history and its marketability, he's done nothing to keep it from deteriorating.

As far as what he looks like, he's an attractive, unassuming mid to late 40s looking guy with dark hair, not incredibly tall, appears fit. He likes long walks in the woods, movies, romantic dinners, and talking about his feelings."

LOL, indeed.

"Any of you lawyer types know if the city or county can use emminent domain to "force" Levine into action on his land. The risk being that if he does nothing, it is detrimental to surrounding development. This is kind of a spin on the recent Supreme Court case in the northeast that allows for emminent domain for commercial projects, where I believe that in the past it was only used for public projects, such as highways."

No. How would you like it if someone forced you to develop an undevelopable (for the current market) piece of land that you owned? It's bad enough that the city is too afraid to use TIF's- let's not bring that nasty unconstitutional (IMO) business into this fair city.

"Though I can't speak for Levine, if that were my property, I would be in no hurry right now to start developing expensive projects for this land given the high number of proposed but unbuilt projects that have been announced in the downtown area. If it is his goal to eventually make a lot of money on this land, then it is in his best interest to see what gets built out instead of jumping on the bandwagon right now and announce a project that will end up competing with the other projects. (some of which may not be built). There are more than 5000 condos proposed for this market so why would he want to add another one to the lot? The only exception to this would be if a developer were to offer him a lot of money for one of these parcels.

If my assumption is correct about his goal to make money on this property, then Levine is doing what is in his best interest which is what 99% of the property owners do in this city. If anything his reluctance to develop this land right now is a sign that he doesn't think the market is there."

You're on fire.

"Unfortunately, I don't think this land is such a large part of the Levine family fortune. It's just a plaything.

But I'm still not sure it's good capitalism to hold that land off the market. It isn't really in the path of growth. Second Ward sits between the business district and the city's most affluent neighborhoods; the Levine land sits on the way to the railroad yards. It's apparently still economical to build single-family homes in that area.

I know, I know, it's uptown land. But there's a lot of empty uptown land and, even during the current "boom," only a very small portion is being converted to new development each year. It could be a generation or more before there is actual pressure on the Levine land -- ie, a lack of better parcels closer to Trade & Tryon.

In the meantime, it's up to Levine himself to make that land into something more.

And he doesn't seem to care."

Dead wrong, on all fronts.

"Chump change for him, though."

Wrong, as well.

"I don't see how they can chastise Levine for just holding onto to his property especially when you consider all of the really bad development that does exist on S. Tryon. I say let Levine develop it when he is ready rather than to give us yet another mediocre development because he was pressured into it. My guess is that he is reading the economic tea leaves right now in that it is not a good time to be taking on a massive new development."

Strongly agreed.

"He could have been receptive to providing Trump with a plot of land for his new project (I'm not sure there is any reason to believe this will be low quality), but for whatever reason he is notoriously hard to work with. He also blew the deal with Novare becuase they couldn't resolve some issues. He should take a hint from the development draw from the 3rd ward park and maybe lay some concrete plans for a park on his own land. That said I think he's missed the boat for this boom so I don't think we should expect anything else for a while."

My personal opinion, and what I've heard, is that Trump is a chump and a bully to the cities he "chooses" to develop in. Notoriously hard to work with? Did you hear that from your city sources? Ha.

I hope you are right Miesian Corners. You can go all the way back to the early 1990's and see plan after plan has never come to fruition. I gotta believe that there were many other developers and civic leaders that would have wrote what Jim Palermo did today. Palermo is a made man, so he doesn't have to worry about any backlash, plus he has given so much to the city and is so respected that his opinion carries weight in the city. I'll tell you one thing, I am sick and tired of walking though Levine wasteland everyday.

"Given so much"? Apart from one condo project, he's not invested one dime of his net worth into developing the city. He simply does his job well. If that's the case (tired of walking through "wasteland"), Pita Pit friend, you should probably move.

"I found this amusing. Levine graduated from UNC-Chapel Hill with a degree in City & Regional Planning....who would have guessed"

Why is this amusing?

"Look at it this way, there at least won't be a flood of land on the market. He is suppressing supply, so at least other areas get built up higher. But seriously, hasn't he choked off first ward for long enough!?

Why can he not just get it together? Because he is a land banker, pure and simple. He doesn't really care about building anything. He only updates his plans to keep the perception that development is imminent, so people can build around him, and increase the value of his land. He doesn't care at all what happens to the area in the meantime."

Wrong. Why keep frustrating all of you with the "perception that development is imminent"? You're right about the escalating value of his land easing his conscience, but he is trying, albeit slowly, to implement plan after plan. Some things just aren't financially feasible or practical. While that is not the bottom line, this is his and his family's net worth we're discussing, not some chump change. You all are very fast (and not just on this thread) to be critical of developers- how many of you have ever tried walking in their shoes, or putting your butt on the line to develop land? There's an old adage about putting the money where the mouth is that doesn't only apply to the topic of this thread.

"Everyone has a price, even Levine...I think his bet will eventually pay huge dividends and in the spirit of capitalism he will win big. His concern is not for the skraper junkie, and Urban dweller, but for his own pocket book. However, I think that when the land is developed (and it will one day be developed), it will be one hell of a project since all parcels bordering Levine's is going to already be built out. I have to think that D's optismism on the supply/demand side of things is absolutely correct and well put. (even though the pesimist in me hates the wait)"

Same here. Philanthropy is nice, but how many of us are willing to fork over our wallets without a vague promise of return on investment? When it's millions of dollars you're talking about, the comparison between "us" and "them" takes on a whole new meaning.

"What I want to know is how Levine can sit on such expensive land and pay taxes on it. Does his parking revenue add up to all that?!! If so, we're all in the wrong biz."

And what biz would that be?

"Let's just look at this on the bright side...big land planning firms like Civitas, LandDesign, and Kimley Horn will get more business as Levine studies this new parcel five or six times over the next 15 years."

Both funny and true. Planning for development is no cakewalk nor cheap.

"This is true. I wonder how residents of Courtside feel about the separation between them and Tryon by all those parking lots. I'm sure it must take away some part of that urban experience they paid for."

Why would you pay for an urban experience that does not exist? Tell them to take it up with their developer.

"I'm reasonably fearless when it comes to urban exploration, but even I don't feel entirely comfortable crossing the Levine-owned parts of 1st Ward when it's just me and a crowd of homeless."

That would be an issue to take up with CMPD and City Council. If you are still frightened of people without homes, check this link out.

"He could also pave it with the rubble from all of the antique buildings he has let fall into disrepair so that he can tear them down with an excuse. There could be a Treloar section, the Carey/Dixies section, the McNeil section, etc."

Levine Properties has more to manage than just these buildings.

Note: Edited only to put quoted text in boldface.

Edited July 9, 2007 by zvyozd

[cinco]

i'm sure levine is a swell guy - but, your on a forum that is designed to converse about urban development - which doesn't exist on levine's prime uptown real estate.... so, you probably aren't going to sell anyone on levine's "purchase and sit" tactics.

we all recoginize that it is his land - and he will do with it what he may. however, being concerned enthusiasts - we have opinions on what we think he should do. not too mention, alot of us find it OUTRAGEOUS that the city would allow him to get his hands on even more prime uptown real estate.

Edited July 9, 2007 by cinco

[zvyozd]

^ that is probably the most redundant post i've ever read here... and other than describing what he looks like - the insight is minimal (for me).

i'm sure levine is a swell guy - but, your on a forum that is designed to converse about urban development - which doesn't exist on levine's prime uptown real estate.... so, you probably aren't going to sell anyone on levine's "purchase and sit" tactics.

we all recoginize that it is his land - and he will do with it what he may. however, being concerned enthusiasts - we have opinions on what we think he should do. not too mention, alot of us find it OUTRAGEOUS that the city would allow him to get his hands on even more prime uptown real estate.

Thanks for the boost of confidence. I'll be sure to post again soon and try to inform your opinions.

I am not trying to sell anyone.

If the purpose of the forum is to converse about development, and Levine's does not exist, could/should we get a moderator to close this thread? Purchasing land and planning development is more than half the battle- as soon as you see bulldozers, the development process is nearing it's end.

Again, thanks for the flame, but one of my main objectives was to chastise you all for claiming to know anything about urban development after developing nothing, which puts you in the same seat as the man you would so readily chastise. I don't see how that's redundant.

[JerseyBoy]

Well thank you zvyozd for giving us some insight into how Levine thinks and that it isn't just hopeless property after all. Though it is kind of depressing to see all of that undeveloped land so close to Uptown. For my Future Charlotte Skyline thread I made a map that showed the remainder surface lots/undeveloped land if all the new projects are built and the predominant amount of land was Levine's.

[ES Charlotte]

Well thank you zvyozd for giving us some insight into how Levine thinks and that it isn't just hopeless property after all. Though it is kind of depressing to see all of that undeveloped land so close to Uptown. For my Future Charlotte Skyline thread I made a map that showed the remainder surface lots/undeveloped land if all the new projects are built and the predominant amount of land was Levine's.

I dont really care what anybody says... Thats flat out ridiculous! .. If he cares so much then why doesnt he do just a single development for now... Not like he will run out of land.. He obviously doesnt care about the current market and enjoys to hear his name in thrown around by other developers that really want in on the charlotte market.

[cinco]

Thanks for the boost of confidence. I'll be sure to post again soon and try to inform your opinions.

I am not trying to sell anyone.

If the purpose of the forum is to converse about development, and Levine's does not exist, could/should we get a moderator to close this thread? Purchasing land and planning development is more than half the battle- as soon as you see bulldozers, the development process is nearing it's end.

Again, thanks for the flame, but one of my main objectives was to chastise you all for claiming to know anything about urban development after developing nothing, which puts you in the same seat as the man you would so readily chastise. I don't see how that's redundant.

i apologize for the overly personal comment regarding your post. it was unnecessary. however, your initial post struck a chord because i read it to be condescending (which you admit that you intended to chastise). you have no clue as to who you are addressing and would not know who has or hasn't ever been involved in development... in some capacity or another - many of us have. even still, that is aside from the point.

we all have ideas as to what levine should do with all his vacant land uptown - for the betterment of charlotte.

Edited July 9, 2007 by cinco

[Raintree21]

It's just funny that seemingly every post about Levine over the last two years was copied and the reposted with virtually no information going with it besides "warmer..." Everyone is entitled to their opinion and that opinion for the most part here is that people want to see this land developed. Why take offense to the fact that some people are tired of others lining their pockets and simply want to see the city improved and developed?

[zvyozd]

i apologize for the overly personal comment regarding your post. it was unnecessary. however, your initial post struck a chord because i read it to be condescending (which you admit that you intended to chastise). you have no clue as to who you are addressing and would not know who has or hasn't ever been involved in development... in some capacity or another - many of us have. even still, that is aside from the point.

we all have ideas as to what levine should do with all his vacant land uptown - for the betterment of charlotte.

That being said, all of the forum ideas, while good ones, if not financially feasible, will never see the light of day. If the Pro Forma doesn't show the investor what he wants to see, he waits for the market to change, or invests elsewhere.

I was not intentionally trying to be condescending- chastising, yes (see below). Apologies if it came across that way. You are very correct that I don't know who I'm addressing. Point well taken.

I suppose I'm just trying to say (and this is insight into my own mind, not Levine's) that you all need to cut the guy a break- it's taken a large amount of time and money to accumulate all of this land. While you may think it's ridiculous that he's not developed anything in First Ward, it's still his time, his investment, his land. I wish I had had the insight to buy dilapidated downtown properties like he did when he did, and the benevolence to give back to the community as his family has done.

"I dont really care what anybody says... Thats flat out ridiculous! .. If he cares so much then why doesnt he do just a single development for now... Not like he will run out of land.. He obviously doesnt care about the current market and enjoys to hear his name in thrown around by other developers that really want in on the charlotte market."

Do you really think he's sitting on a throne, with his fingers in a steeple, guffawing and cackling all day long? These comments strike me as more ridiculous than undeveloped land. Please reread my post, and try to drop the conception that all developers are evil.

By the by, the current market is condominums, and very much oversaturated.

[zvyozd]

It's just funny that seemingly every post about Levine over the last two years was copied and the reposted with virtually no information going with it besides "warmer..." Everyone is entitled to their opinion and that opinion for the most part here is that people want to see this land developed. Why take offense to the fact that some people are tired of others lining their pockets and simply want to see the city improved and developed?

Anyone who wouldn't want the land to be developed and have Charlotte improved wouldn't be on the forums in the first place, I don't think.

Because the implication that someone else should improve the city at their own expense, regardless of the market, and not you, leaves you in a worse place than a NIMBY, in my entitled opinion.