First Ward Urban Village / North Tryon Vision Plan

[richyb83]

DaAcheiver, I really like the Uptown aerial! Is there something else as a part of the Convention Center/Bobcat Arena complex?? Is that new hotels along the freeway near the football stadium??

Charlotte is a city on the move!

[Rebelde]

Did he not have the land before the development boom? Most recent developments I have heard announced were made last year.

Wachovia, 300 South Tryon, 1 Charlotte, Novare 3rd ward project,Sierra, Bank of America, possible Trump, ETC. in the '06.

Question; Did Levine have all this land before we got all excited over a 17 story condo building...?

Edited July 9, 2007 by Rebelde

[DeeMan]

This man bought all this land with his hard earned money, if he wants to develop it, let him, if he doesn't then leave him alone. I myself would like to see it all developed but we live in capitalist economy so let it be, we can't force anyone to develop if they don't want to. The fact that he is just getting richer by buying these lands is perfectly fine, if it weren't for rich people, no condos or towers would ever be constructed!!

[atlrvr]

Well, zvyzod, I can appreciate your opinions, and to a degree, agree with them somewhat, I challenge your ascertion that the current market is condos, and that we are over-saturated, and that this is justification to just sit on land.

The current market has little do with what the market is upon completion of a particular project (3 years from now). He has owned land through a series of market cycles, and could have easily built a project concurrent with Courtside as his land basis was even lower than the subsidized land Furman bought from the CHA. The market may be flooded in 3 years from now, but that's not a good excuse that he couldn't have hit the market at perfect timing.

A year ago, the "future market" tended toward office space. Had he already had a shovel in the ground, he would be hitting the market at (or virtually at) the historical low Class A vacancy point....it seems that the ship has sailed on that one.

The market 3 years from now will be apartments. Vacancies are falling locally and nationwide, rents are rising, employment will be booming downtown, institutional money is going to need some sort of product to chase, and office buildings are getting too expensive, and best of all, there is little in the pipeline. Will he step-up to the plate, or will he let this pass, and in a few years say, "nah, the market's not right...too much new product coming on-line"

You have named a bunch of admirable attributes that Levine possesses, but (to me, at least) he doesn't seem to possess confidence in taking a risk, or a developer's "gut feeling". Without those, buying Uptown land seems like the safe bet.

And for what it's worth, I have put my money where my mouth (and gut) is.

[geekUSA1981]

I think many are frustrated with the unfulfilled plans and sorry excuses Levine continues to give. He's said he hasn't built yet because he doesn't feel the market/environment is right, yet. I find this an odd reason, considering the developers/investors of the Vue, Courtside, Trademark, Wachovia project, 210 Trade, Epicentre, Avenue, 300 S Tryon, One Charlotte, Novare projects, and more have all felt the market IS right to build. And he's had control of a lot of the land long before any of these projects were announced. So it's not as if there was a flood of new construction. The parking lots that sit there, in my mind (and I'm sure the minds of many others), are the antithesis of a thriving city. Parking lots are a sign of stagnancy. Much like the parked cars they house, they are not going anywhere. When parking lots are in the downtown area of a city, it gives the impression that the city is really just a big strip mall or business park. I know Charlotte isn't quite a bustling major city, but it's heading that way. It'd be a shame if in 10 years, virtually all available land in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th wards was developed with all-rises of buildings, and they all overlooked a sea of asphault in 1st ward, with Levine still saying the time just isn't quite right, yet, to build.

[ChesterCopperPot]

While there are some philanthropists out there, real estate development is a business where return on investment drives action. Until somebody shows me that Levine's decision to buy up land in a limited supply environment, letting the parking revenue pay for property tax as well as almost all (if not all and then some) the cost of tying up that large capital sum (or mortgage), and letting the yearly double digit increases of inner loop land increase his net wealth are not giving him a better ROI than developing and releasing the land immediately, I will save judgement on his decision to do so. I'm guessing his forecast of the land value defeats the prospect of developing this land. As soon as parking revenue falls with respect to the value of land enough to deter sitting on this land, then it will begin to change hands/be developed. Right now, I have to respect his decision to make a slow dime rather than a quick nickel. When the land does turn, the higher land values will likely demand larger, denser projects than we have seen thus far in 1st Ward, so this is not necessarily a negative for you skyscraper junkies out there. I personally don't believe Levine has acquired so much land that he is driving the development outside the loop prematurely. The South Blvd and Southpark projects aren't dense enough yet to convince me of that.

[mjfhokie]

One quick thing I find fascinating, and maybe it's just me only living in Uptown for a little over a month, but the lot at 11th and Brevard, which I assume is part of this land, has free parking for the whole month of July. Before this, about 10 cars would park in that lot on a normal work day. Now it's about 30+, but I'm guessing it will drop right back down at the end of July. I guessing not much money is being made on this lot!

[Miesian Corners]

That being said, all of the forum ideas, while good ones, if not financially feasible, will never see the light of day. If the Pro Forma doesn't show the investor what he wants to see, he waits for the market to change, or invests elsewhere.

I was not intentionally trying to be condescending- chastising, yes (see below). Apologies if it came across that way. You are very correct that I don't know who I'm addressing. Point well taken.

I suppose I'm just trying to say (and this is insight into my own mind, not Levine's) that you all need to cut the guy a break- it's taken a large amount of time and money to accumulate all of this land. While you may think it's ridiculous that he's not developed anything in First Ward, it's still his time, his investment, his land. I wish I had had the insight to buy dilapidated downtown properties like he did when he did, and the benevolence to give back to the community as his family has done.

"I dont really care what anybody says... Thats flat out ridiculous! .. If he cares so much then why doesnt he do just a single development for now... Not like he will run out of land.. He obviously doesnt care about the current market and enjoys to hear his name in thrown around by other developers that really want in on the charlotte market."

Do you really think he's sitting on a throne, with his fingers in a steeple, guffawing and cackling all day long? These comments strike me as more ridiculous than undeveloped land. Please reread my post, and try to drop the conception that all developers are evil.

By the by, the current market is condominums, and very much oversaturated.

Developers are not evil? Why is it that I smell sulfur every time a Beazer representative walks by? (only kidding Conformity--, but not the Beazer part)

Why do we rag on Danny so much? Try living in First Ward, being on the neighborhood board, and having meetings with Levine over the past 10 years. Try having him show you plan after plan (three at last count) that never come through, while in the meantime, you watch every other parcel uptown get developed. Try listening to him tell you the historic value of Treleor House and that its been leased to ______ (insert: restaurant, office, bread-maker, etc...), yet nearly a decade later, it sits empty and on the verge of collapse. It is very hard to have any confidence in the man when he has promised so much and delivered so little (I give him credit for UNC Charlotte, but that's it).

[Skyline49er]

Developers are not evil? Why is it that I smell sulfur every time a Beazer representative walks by? (only kidding Conformity--, but not the Beazer part)

Why do we rag on Danny so much? Try living in First Ward, being on the neighborhood board, and having meetings with Levine over the past 10 years. Try having him show you plan after plan (three at last count) that never come through, while in the meantime, you watch every other parcel uptown get developed. Try listening to him tell you the historic value of Treleor House and that its been leased to ______ (insert: restaurant, office, bread-maker, etc...), yet nearly a decade later, it sits empty and on the verge of collapse. It is very hard to have any confidence in the man when he has promised so much and delivered so little (I give him credit for UNC Charlotte, but that's it).

Speaking of UNC-Charlotte, when are they supposed to start construction on their building....aren't they wanting a 2009 opening, or was it 2010?

[dubone]

I actually think it is a misnomer to call Levine a developer. He is a land banker.

To a degree, he has done great work in shrinking the supply of truly available land, so that other land can be developed more densely than it might otherwise have been. But it is fairly obvious, if you follow the story, that he is either incompetent or completely disinterested in having uptown improve as a liveable place. He has isolated First Ward's Garden District in a moat of asphalt.

[mdadolfo]

Seems like The Row is under construction. Has all it's units been sold out too?

Edited July 11, 2007 by mdadolfo

[atlrvr]

Levine has been outbid (for the moment)....the developer of 28thRo in NoDa and another partner have bid $35M...they didn't comment on plans.

I enjoyed a quote from Jim Palermo saying he "yawned" when Levine bid, knowing that it would be land banked.

[cltheel.sdl]

Levine has been outbid (for the moment)....the developer of 28thRo in NoDa and another partner have bid $35M...they didn't comment on plans.

I enjoyed a quote from Jim Palermo saying he "yawned" when Levine bid, knowing that it would be land banked.

Where was this quote? And who is the developer of 28thRo?

[atlrvr]

In next weeks prints CBJ......it is Greg Godely (who formerly developed/invested in industrial buildings around Charlotte)

[Raintree21]

Here's the CBJ story. Levine was outbid by BB&D Investment Group.

The full quote posted by atlvr is: "When I saw Daniel was a bidder, I just yawned," says Jim Palermo, executive in residence at Johnson & Wales University and a pivotal player in North Tryon's 1990s surge during his days as a Bank of America Corp. real estate executive. "He would land bank it, and it would be such a waste."

A third party may be interested as well, Flagship Capital Partners has expressed some interest in addition to Levine.

[brian7270]

The market 3 years from now will be apartments. Vacancies are falling locally and nationwide, rents are rising, employment will be booming downtown, institutional money is going to need some sort of product to chase, and office buildings are getting too expensive, and best of all, there is little in the pipeline. Will he step-up to the plate, or will he let this pass, and in a few years say, "nah, the market's not right...too much new product coming on-line"

I think the market is now. From what i have been hearing from the advisers we respect is that every multifamily developer in the nation has their claws in Charlotte right now and that there is a serious risk of over building apartments. Land prices are going way up and proforma returns are dropping.

Brian

[atlrvr]

^ Yes but his land basis is low enough that he doesn't have that issue. Is it the best profit margin? Probably flipping land he's held for 10 years would be better...

I agree that apartments are now, but if I had to start planning a project now, with no specific development niche in mind, I think at completion (3 years from now), apartments are still the best game in town. Returns are higher on condos, but that's if you will be able to get people to buy. Office towers have a decent return, but with the supply in the works, its a year too late, especially with the liklihood of cap rates rising by then.

Anyway, I know he was talking to Dean DeViller's a while back about JVing on some apartments, but I'm not sure what became of that. Probably not much, since the land he had appraised 2-years ago at ~$3M an acre, would now be on the market at $6M+/ac.....

[49er]

does anyone remember the brown rogers dixon warehouse that levine tore down a few years ago? It was where the green market is held today. Not only does he land bank, he destroys worthwhile old buildings and leaves dirt lots. the city really wanted that saved because it was one of the last of the warehouses that used to line the rail tracks through downtown. it would have made a beautiful mixed use loft style building. the treloar will slowly fall to the ground. after he lets it rot he'll say its too far gone to save, just watch.

i guess he saved some tax money by reducing the value of the parcel

[BUILDIT]

I love driving through providence and seeing all the old brick warehouses that are outside the downtown, thats a beautiful city... I was wondering what happened to charlottes warehouses. right a landbanker who is greedy took care of it

[carolina_fan]

...land he had appraised 2-years ago at ~$3M an acre, would now be on the market at $6M+/ac.....

Levine's Urban Village land hasn't appreciated that much in 2 years, has it?

[atlrvr]

I would think his parcels closest to Tryon/Trade would be.....he's in a perfect position. He can sell his most valuable parcels off, and as they are developed, it increasaes the value of his remaining parcels.....

[monsoon]

I love driving through providence and seeing all the old brick warehouses that are outside the downtown, thats a beautiful city... I was wondering what happened to charlottes warehouses. right a landbanker who is greedy took care of it

Actually a lot of it disappeared through urban renewal projects of the 60's and 70's, the building of I-277, and tax policy that encourages these places to be torn down. It wasn't just warehouses, but also churches, Victorian homes, 19th and early 20th century mansions that lined Trade street (last one torn down in 1990) and so forth. Many historic buildings also disappeared at First Union's (Wachovia) and NCNB's (Bank of America) instigation. It was after this happened that the land bankers showed up and bought the property for cheap.

[dubone]

That is definitely true, but it should not take away from Levine horrible stewardship of the 19th century buildings he has on his land. He says with a straight face that Treloar is imminently getting a tenant, only he says the same tenant as he did years and years before. He says with a straight face that Treloar will be moved across 7th St to be an anchor for the park, yet his more recent drawings do not include this. Nor do they include the building that Dixies is in, or any other buildings that line the trolley tracks between 7th and 9th.

He is a landbanker interested in appreciating the commodity of land, and the century old buildings on that land are simply holding it back in its potential for a highly valuable project to go on top.

It is so obvious that Levine is not interested in developing his land this decade, and maybe not even next decade. He is simply trying to maintain buzz about imminence so that he can be free to buy more land from the city as though that extra parcel will somehow make it all happen.

Once you see the pattern of his behavior, you realize that you've been fed a whole lot of lies. I still remember when I used to believe that Levine's land was being developed any day now.

[cltheel.sdl]

That is definitely true, but it should not take away from Levine horrible stewardship of the 19th century buildings he has on his land. He says with a straight face that Treloar is imminently getting a tenant, only he says the same tenant as he did years and years before. He says with a straight face that Treloar will be moved across 7th St to be an anchor for the park, yet his more recent drawings do not include this. Nor do they include the building that Dixies is in, or any other buildings that line the trolley tracks between 7th and 9th.

He is a landbanker interested in appreciating the commodity of land, and the century old buildings on that land are simply holding it back in its potential for a highly valuable project to go on top.

It is so obvious that Levine is not interested in developing his land this decade, and maybe not even next decade. He is simply trying to maintain buzz about imminence so that he can be free to buy more land from the city as though that extra parcel will somehow make it all happen.

Once you see the pattern of his behavior, you realize that you've been fed a whole lot of lies. I still remember when I used to believe that Levine's land was being developed any day now.

He owns the Dixie's building? Great, you know that's gonna get demoed. I really don't want to lose any more significant older buildings uptown - I could probably count them on my 10 fingers.

[geekUSA1981]

Is this yet another rendering? http://www.charlottecentercity.org/Develop...ban_village.pdf

I have to say, I like it much better than the prior renderings I've seen. This one appears to have a lot more height to it. Although, not too crazy about what appears to be low/mid rise buildings fronting Tryon in the top-right corner. Am I interpreting that correctly? Seems rather odd to not have highrises fronting what many would consider THE main street of uptown Charlotte.

Edited July 19, 2007 by geekUSA1981