First Ward Urban Village / North Tryon Vision Plan

[krazeeboi]

In permitting lingo, "pulled" means they applied for the permit.

Wow, don't I feel stupid. Thanks for letting me know.

[UrbanFuture]

I wonder how high 18,026 sqft comes out to, I'd imagine not too tall, but I can't see the floor plates being to big either, because the site plan shows the pool for the Ledge jutting out into part of that open space on the corner of 6th and mcdowell.

On another note, I'm pumped they are finally moving on this again. There was a dead period for a good month.

[world44]

QCkid,

Is there a fourth building?

[UrbanFuture]

QCkid,

Is there a fourth building?

Yes, office building on the 6th street/McDowell corner from what I've seen/heard. It may have changed locations on the site, I haven't taken a look in a while.

[world44]

The word about the Quad at Quarterside is that it will be completed and ready for habitation in Summer of 2008. The tags are attractive therefore took the plunge too! The square looks promising according to Blvd Centro.

[swh1972]

The 3rd Quarter Earnings Report for Colonial Properties Trust (Developer for Enclave) notes that only 1 of 85 units is under contract as of September 30, 2007. A footnote within the report indicates the following:

(4) Upon completion of the project, the Company in considering the lease of all units as multifamily apartment homes.

I would be pi$$ed off if I was the one person holding a contract and just realized that all of my neighbors may be renters...

On a brighter note, the same report lists the number of units under contract at Midtown Metropolitan at 75 out of 101.

[moving uptown]

The 3rd Quarter Earnings Report for Colonial Properties Trust (Developer for Enclave) notes that only 1 of 85 units is under contract as of September 30, 2007. A footnote within the report indicates the following:

(4) Upon completion of the project, the Company in considering the lease of all units as multifamily apartment homes.

I would be pi$$ed off if I was the one person holding a contract and just realized that all of my neighbors may be renters...

On a brighter note, the same report lists the number of units under contract at Midtown Metropolitan at 75 out of 101.

im sorry but that is what they get for screwing everyone out of their contracts! that building was initially affordable and one of the properties i was seriously considering but now they are going to have to deal with apts, serves them right.

ps why would anyone pay $350/sf to live in a stick built home when they could live in trademark, courtside, or elswhere

[uptownliving]

I agree, Colonial royally screwed themselves over with this project.

[Miesian Corners]

The 3rd Quarter Earnings Report for Colonial Properties Trust (Developer for Enclave) notes that only 1 of 85 units is under contract as of September 30, 2007. A footnote within the report indicates the following:

(4) Upon completion of the project, the Company in considering the lease of all units as multifamily apartment homes.

I would be pi$ed off if I was the one person holding a contract and just realized that all of my neighbors may be renters...

Someone on the First Ward board better be jumping on this. Per the agreement with the Charlotte Housing Authority which owned the land (and only after a BITTER fight between the neighborhood and CHA), that property had to be developed as "for sale" due to the over abundance of renter-occupied housing in First Ward.

[uptownliving]

Yes, the agreement was that Encalve was going to be for sale and that would be built first before the CHA would build their subsidized apartments. However CHA has now abandoned their plans to build the subsidized apartments next to Enclave. Since the subsidized apartments arn't going to be built there that effectively nullifies the agreement.

[MZT]

Sounds like it will be less of an "Enclave" since it will be open to renters. Turnover in a rental community has to exceed any condominium complex.

I'm sure that single buyer's contract will be axed. I can't imagine a judge enforcing it... Now, if 40% or so of the units had been sold, that would be more debatable. Then, a buyer is really stuck! You could even serve on the HOA and have no real influence, since the rental management has the majority vote...

Seriously though. This is an example of what happens in a small town. (By that I'm implying that Uptown is still kind of it's own market that's supported by reputation and word of mouth.) I can't imagine many Realtors in Uptown being willing to steer buyers to there, after the Renwick fiasco.

Edited October 27, 2007 by MZT

[Charlotte_native]

I'm sure that single buyer's contract will be axed. I can't imagine a judge enforcing it... Now, if 40% or so of the units had been sold, that would be more debatable. Then, a buyer is really stuck! You could even serve on the HOA and have no real influence, since the rental management has the majority vote...

Another difficulty for buyers will be their lenders. Most lenders don't like to lend money on new condos if more than 20% or so of the units will be rentals.

Can't say I feel real sorry for this developer, but I do for these buyers.

[dubone]

In the time since the Renwick was first proposed, we now have a major Furman development, Quarterside, as well as M Street (and I think the City View project was built after the Renwick was first proposed as mixed income). I think that number of rental housing downtown is probably a significantly lower percentage than it used to be. Given the fact that these people have definitely screwed themselves out of the possibility of selling the units, I'd just as soon have this as market rate rentals and get people living in this.

I think the world has changed so much since the original controversy, that as long as it isn't more subsidized housing, that it isn't going to be a big deal for the neighborhood to have it be rental.

One way to look at it is that is a project that still happened, but all those buyers got to get out and support another project to happen. So if you are of the mindset that gluts are good, then this definitely helps.

[UrbanFuture]

One thought I had was how far into construction did they get before someone told the contractor not to install "condo finishes"? Do these places all have the granite and hardwoods in them? I can't imagine they would rent them for less than market rate let alone subsidize them. Especially the top floor 2 story lofts. What a disaster for Colonial, I hope this drags them down a few notches in the development world for screwing with contracts. On the other hand, I want people to buy there; I'm super pissed as a future resident of Quarterside that those high priced neighbors are now ghosts.

[voyager12]

God forbid anyone would willingly stoop to living next door to dreaded "renters' We are not a disease. What's even more funny is that these "rentals," cue the dreaded gasps ... are most likely going to be market rate and not an option for the evil unwashed masses. Most homeowners opposed to apts are also rented once and most tenants are quite responsible. Having a successful city includes housing a mix of economic classes. Much of First Ward was envisioned as mixed income. The final product for renters and owners will be very nice. What's the problem?

Edited October 28, 2007 by voyager12

[dubone]

Maybe some people have a boogeyman complex on renters, but the original concern with rental units was a very simple proportion issue. It isn't that First Ward doesn't want rental units, it is that there is already a very significant number of rental units there. As a general rule, but certainly not always the case, renters are not as connected to the neighborhood and therefore do not do things which are important for helping the neighborhood improve. They are a temporary and transient group in general.

The concern is that the original concept for Hope VI was not only to have a mixed income neighborhood, but to have a base of home ownership to create a vested interest in keeping the neighborhood stable. If that home ownership base diminishes to a small minority of the residents, the concern is that the social risks would increase.

As I said earlier, I think that Courtside, Court6, Quarterside, M Street, and First Row have brought it in enough home-ownership to the area that it is really a non-issue for Enclave to be a rental place. I bet that First Ward could even support a few more subsidized units, too.

[UrbanFuture]

I do believe I was misunderstood I am currently a renter and enjoy it thoroughly. I will also most likely be a renter sometime in the future also, so I have nothing against renters. I also have nothing against apts, in fact, I envision it turning into a nicer version of the former 5th & poplar apts. And I'm also not a "blue blood, holier than thou" soon to be property owner who peers down or up in Enclave's case from my brick and hardi plank tower at the non-property owners. I was merely saying in terms of selfish reasons (i.e. my personal property value) that having a place across the street that is somewhat similar on the exterior and structure but $100,000 more will be missed by me. Renters in that building will actually make the neighborhood much more lively and fun, due to the fact that normal, all walks of life, people will be able to live there and will add to the neighborhood culture and character. I live in Alpha Mill right now and the mix of people here is phenomenal, I am sad to admit I doubt it will retain such a great diverse mix when it goes for sale in 4 years.

[Miesian Corners]

God forbid anyone would willingly stoop to living next door to dreaded "renters' We are not a disease. What's even more funny is that these "rentals," cue the dreaded gasps ... are most likely going to be market rate and not an option for the evil unwashed masses. Most homeowners opposed to apts are also rented once and most tenants are quite responsible. Having a successful city includes housing a mix of economic classes. Much of First Ward was envisioned as mixed income. The final product for renters and owners will be very nice. What's the problem?

Dubone did a very nice job of explaining what the problem was. CHA was originally going to build more subsidized housing on the site. At the time, First Ward Place Apartments (also controlled by CHA) were terriblly mismanaged. Trash, noise, poor upkeep (doors with bumper stickers and graffiti, junked cars in the parking lots, too many people living in units (one one bedroom unit had 10 people, three of which were wanted by CMPD), etc). We saw the new apartment development as more of the same. If they couldn't handle the units they already had, why give them a chance to build more? And in the same neighborhood, for goodness sake! Furthermore, the way CHA went about the process was underhanded. When they announced a neighborhood meeting to address concerns, they scheduled it a day in advance for 10 a.m. on a Tuesday. I guess they were expecting no one would be able to come due to work (boy, were they ever wrong about that one!).

So no, I have no issue with "renters", but I have a HUGE issue with CHA and the way it goes about its business.

[Raintree21]

News14 has an interesting article about the relocation of the Medical Examiner's Office. They will be moving to a new building on Reno Ave., which is off West Trade in between Rozzelles Ferry and Brookshire. Their new $5 million building will triple their current size and will "feature state-of-the-art equipment and an outdoor serenity garden for grieving families." Sounds like this will be quite a nice place and will be a serious upgrade from their current facilities.

[world44]

The rents at the Enclave are not going to be economical with justification of the sale prices. At another Charlotte Forum many professionals are asking for guidance on rentals, to try out the area, before buying. This is a perfect opportunity for those new comer business professionals, attorneys, doctors, engineers, and so forth.

This project will definitely not be the same "First Ward Place Apartment" scenario. Uptown is becoming a very expensive area to live. It will be a matter of time before projects like these are phased out because of rising economics. By the way, where do these "subsidized" dwellers work if only banking exists within the area?

[atlrvr]

It seems that Kanvas Art Gallery is finally going to be moving into its new home in Court 6. It is currently located at a building in Levine-Land that is slated for demo for UNCC's building.

I'm glad to see some unique retail come to this part of 1st Ward, I just hope they get enough traffic.

[QC-NC]

So Starbucks, Barnes & Nobles, Banana Republic, Fed-Ex Kinkos, to mainstream and not unique enough?

I personally wouldnt mind seeing a replica of a Phillips Place or Birkdale type feel. I beleive that the area will soon have a dense enough population to support that type of feel. But unique retail (art galleries) are typically secondary commercial retailers, meaning they exist because the mainstream "common/popular" commercial already has laid a base attraction for residents and visitors from outside of 1st ward.

Id like to picture 1st Ward as the future Georgetown of Charlotte. With resdences, alonside, mainstream retail, alongside the unique only in charlotte specialty unique retail...

Anyone know how to kick start this master plan I have haha or even agree with me at all?

[arsenalfcn5]

So Starbucks, Barnes & Nobles, Banana Republic, Fed-Ex Kinkos, to mainstream and not unique enough?

I personally wouldnt mind seeing a replica of a Phillips Place or Birkdale type feel. I beleive that the area will soon have a dense enough population to support that type of feel. But unique retail (art galleries) are typically secondary commercial retailers, meaning they exist because the mainstream "common/popular" commercial already has laid a base attraction for residents and visitors from outside of 1st ward.

Id like to picture 1st Ward as the future Georgetown of Charlotte. With resdences, alonside, mainstream retail, alongside the unique only in charlotte specialty unique retail...

Anyone know how to kick start this master plan I have haha or even agree with me at all?

While I agree that there exists a great deal of potential in First Ward, especially if anything positive happens in Levine-istan, but to throw around names like Georgetown might be a bit of a stretch.

FWIW...The style, character, and quality of Georgetown, and for that matter similar enclaves in northeastern cities, cannot be created artificially like Phillips Place or Birkdale but must evolve from a set of conditions created by a truly urban community. It might take 50 years for 1st ward to acquire the cache of these iconic districts (if we don't tear it all down after 25) and even then, you're relying on today's developers to have the foresight to build space that will be worth renovating in 50 years rather replacing it...and I'm not sure we're seeing that today.

[atlrvr]

...and even then, you're relying on today's developers to have the foresight to build space that will be worth renovating in 50 years rather replacing it...and I'm not sure we're seeing that today.

And this is the problem. Developers typically aren't building anything with a shelf-life of greater than 50 years. Phillips Place won't exist as we know it in 25 years, since there is no redeeming character to it. It fills a specific function that is trendy today, but can't be easily adapted as trends change.....it will soon decline as new forms of urbanism or suburbanism render it obsolete....see Sharon Corners as nearby example.

QC-NC....I have to disagree with the assumption that independent retail follows popular chains. This has been true in Charlotte primarily by financing requirements for retail developers. Looking at retail life-cycles in established cities, independents almost always do the heavy-lifting in terms of making an area attractive to larger retailers. Starbucks is never the first coffee shop in a gentifying neighborhood.

At this point, First Ward is a blank canvas, which in my opinion is what is making it difficult to attract retail. Lenders want established tenants, and established tenants want to be in an area that has proven to be successful in attracting shoppers.

[QC-NC]

QC-NC....I have to disagree with the assumption that independent retail follows popular chains. This has been true in Charlotte primarily by financing requirements for retail developers. Looking at retail life-cycles in established cities, independents almost always do the heavy-lifting in terms of making an area attractive to larger retailers. Starbucks is never the first coffee shop in a gentifying neighborhood.

I comepletely see what you are saying.. However, do you not agree that in Charlotte many of the newer developments, especially when an entire area is renovated and revitalized, see the popular chains pioneer the clean slate which has just been constructed. I.E. Midtown (metropolitan), Phillips place, Birkdale, Sharon Corners, Epicenter (planned so far). Because the firstward area has been 'clean slated' id say it falls into this category.

Dont get me wrong, YOU both are right in your statements that the cache of the admired Georgetown full of upscale retail attraction, constant flow of pedstrians/visitors, and meer physical attraction are not by accident and didnt not happen over night. It is a result of good design that compliments flow of traffic, (ha! ya right... but seriously) reasonable and attractive retail space and presentation, and multiuse structures that can serve as either or both at the same time.

Realistically, 1st Ward we will never recreate such a magnificent relic of residential, retail, and architectural grace. We ARE the new, stucco covered, quick fab, rushed design, build and keep moving type of city. And part of this fault falls just with the times we are in and the technology we have. If we were in 1800s and had only brick, then our architecure would resemble much more of that sturdy CLASSIC utilitarian feel which most would agree summarizes Gtown's architecture to a T.

But can we not steer away from the trend that GATEWAY VILLAGE went down?

Residential above (forgive my diction and narrow minded thought process) pointless retail: Nail Salons, Convience Stores, inpersonal restaurants that fail months later, and random other light commercial space that isnt enought to ever convert to anything of significance or uniqueness.

I would like to see a community which is not a false conjecture of a cookie cutter "modern village", instead a place more along the lines of(shall i stay with the DC/VA reference) Clarendon, Courthouse, Balston of NoVa. Where the urban feel is aligned with quality retail space and design so that access to most any and everything you want and need is with in a square 1/2 miles.

Anyon feel me on this reconsidered theory of 1st Ward's potential? Explain, expand, correct my naiveness