100,000 Iraqis Killed since Bush's Invasion

[PghUSA]

The deaths referred to by this post came from aerial bombings and rocketry.  Did you read the article?  Car bombings have taken relatively few Iraqi lives, but are also a responsibility of the Bush Regime now as they created the situation that allows that allows these deaths to occur.  And they have no plan for fixing it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok I'm gonna read it in its entirety, I have a very hard time believing 100,000 died because of aerial bombings, but if this is what your seeing then I'll read it more closely.

As far as Bush being responsible for the situation, I can see where your coming from on that, but no one makes anyone commit a suicide bombing, ask the Israelis that.

If it is true that everytime we aerial bomb we kill 100,000 mostly non combatants this is NOT precision bombing . . . i'd be interested in the totals from the 91 "video game" war and from Clinton's Serbian action, on average thats 200,000 for the 1990s . . .

If this is true I'm honestly aghast . . . not so much at Bush (although I'm understanding a bit more where your opinions are coming from) but at the military machine that we've been using in the post WWII era.

A little background about me . . . one of my best friends married a Serbian girl the devastation and destruction in that country because of aerial bombings was uncalled for under Clinton as far as the innocent population, I know that has happened in Iraq but 100,000+ each time we unleash it?!?!?! Either that or Bush is making it worse then Serbia or '91? And no I'm not talking that he's evil or a conspiracy, but why would it be worse tatically or operationally?

[monsoon]

[PghUSA]

please quote me justifing killing . . . or anyone on this board for that matter.

If it is the lives you care about then my shock that this is what our "precision bombing" brings isn't isolated to Iraq. The Serbian conflict was different because of NATO and is too deep to go into with justice on this thread but the bombings weren't always justified. The reason for my bringing up other conflicts is twofold A) Iraq needs to get like Japan in 1950 soon and not like Serbia or Somalia or Korea like it is today and actually worse then Serbia and Somailia since we are entrenched in it. B ) to think of the ultimate damage that aeiral bombings do produce

. . .and I remember why I didn't read this article closely, the Lancet link is registration hades, and Im back at their "index page". I did see Tony Blairs govt. was as shocked as I am at this #.

[Cotuit]

You still won't recongize the fact that there were hundreds of Al Qaeda linked terrorists in Iraq as potential justification for the war

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are Al Qaeda linked terrorists in scores of countries throughout the Globe, including our own.

[paulblackgsx]

There are Al Qaeda linked terrorists in scores of countries throughout the Globe, including our own.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You obviously missed the numbers I posted, nor do I think you understand their range of control at the time of the invasion. We're not talking about a handful of cells.

[monsoon]

[Brickell]

Forget the fact that it was Reagan who supported Saddam and NOT George W., whereas FDR, Truman and Clinton all have blood on there hands supporting dictators that committed genocide.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He was far from a saint, or even a decent leader, but will you please stop putting Aristide into the same class as Sadaam, Stalin or Hitler. There was no genocide in Haiti. Duvalier was a much worse dictator for Haiti.

[paulblackgsx]

I asked

[monsoon]

[Ruso]

Am thinking about how the US feels like if it is a nation that can interfere in every world conflict. With the obviuos exceptions (WW2), i feel that the US is too arrogant believing that it can solve every conflict in the world. In Iraq, a country with millenarian history and very complex social strctures, americans believed that the US tried solve something impossible to solve from outside. Same with Vietnam, Chile, Haiti,etc.....

[paulblackgsx]

I didn't think you had any proof of 100s of links Al Queda terrorists to Iraq as you put it.

Except for Fox, which I don't bother to watch, none of the networks has concluded that Saddam Hussein supported any Al Queda movements, especially those directed against the USA.

[monsoon]

[PghUSA]

If Kerry voted "to authorize" Bush to use force in Iraq if all else failed . . . then why would he, if what your saying Metro is correct. I don't believe deathtolls like this took place when Clinton did this in Serbia and I dont believe any president did this with "precision weapons" since they came about in the 1950s and 1960s so I do feel another leader--Kerry included--could have found a better way to do this with less blood, this doesn't excuse for one minute the terrorists with suicide bombs over there, and I am taking this report from Lanceit at face value (the British Govt. is investigating these claims or has that wraped up?) but given its credibility there is truth to those numbers.

My question though is why would Kerry vote to authorize if #1 and #2 was held in faith with everyone on capital hill and in intelligence? Why authorize if there is no reason to. Kerry has yet to really answer that, or maybe I missed that.

[monsoon]

[PghUSA]

Kerry and the others in Congress voted to specifically to

[paulblackgsx]

No one has presented any justification here for the war in Iraq, much less the resulting carnage that has come from it.

Not your mind. I didn't bother trying to build a list of justifications, because it's a little late for that. I did knock Bush for missing potential justifications for the war on Iraq. This would be assuming they were before.

I am referring specifically to this statement. That somehow there was a justification of the war and the resulting 100,000 dead innocent Iraqis, because of these mythical terrorists. I don't recognize they were there because

Ohh, YOU don't recongize that they exist. They are mythical. Well, I must be wrong.

it simply does not make sense as Saddam did everything he could to keep them out.

Strange, Iraq admitted they were there. That's right, Iraq actually admitted this group existed. They of course, claimed that they intended to deal with them.

There is absolutely no proof of this.

That's a reason to be followed behind the first attempt at logic?!? Your kidding right? There is absolutely NO proof, categorily there were not Al Qaeda linked terrorists in Iraq prior to the US invasion in in the hundreds of numbers? No proof?

[monsoon]

[paulblackgsx]

I have a rather length response that I never seem to finish. However, in the mean time I'll give you the following.

it simply does not make sense as Saddam did everything he could to keep them out.

Read the Iraqi UN rebuttal to United States pre-war. They do not openly admit that Al Qaeda was active in Iraq, however, they do openly that Zarqawi has entered their country to join this group (to seek medical attention from wound in Afganistan). As we all know, Zarqawi has written letters to Osama Bin Laden that was published on this groups website (check BBCNews for the source article on this story, as well as various others), in addition to his various other activities and statements posted first on this groups website. And of course, just recently Zarqawi pledged his alligence to bin laden, despite denying involvement with them for years.

There is plenty of other information. Some fact, some ficition, some rumor, which is why my response would be long since I don't feel like posting a single story with a bunch of unanswered questions or the thought that it would leave holes to be shot in the information. I'd rather have a comphrensive story.

However, there is no shortage of information from a variety of view points concerning this group.

[monsoon]

[paulblackgsx]

I can read the CIA report that says there was no link.

No link to what? To Saddam?

[paulblackgsx]

Well, if the link to Saddam was what you were reffering to, I'm not sure why you brought it up, since that was never involved in the point I was attempting to make.

If your refering to a link with Al Qaeda, I've yet to found anything, certainly published by the US government, that does not illustrate the link between the group and Al Qaeda, which is my point. In fact, short of one or two articles that only dealt with interviews of a some members of the group who denied any connection, I haven't even found much in an attempt to deny that there were Al Qaeda connection did not exist, because it clearly did.

[monsoon]

[paulblackgsx]

Report by Abbas al-Badri from Suleimaniya, Iraqi Kurdistan published by Arabic language London-based newspaper, Al-Sharq al-Awsat on 28 September

A document that Al-Sharq al-Awsat has obtained indicates that Usamah Bin-Ladin blessed the establishment of the hard-line Kurdish fundamentalist "Jund al-Islam" [soldiers of Islam]movement, which the Kurds call the Kurdish Taleban. Its establishment was announced early this month in an area close to the town of Halabja near the border with Iran.

This movement broke away from the "Islamic Unity Movement of Iraq's Kurdistan" and is led by Abu-Abdallah al-Shafi'i, alias Warya Hawliri. The document indicates he was trained in the use of arms in Usamah Bin-Ladin's Al-Qa'idah bases and took part in battles against the Russians in Chechnya.

The document obtained by Al-Sharq al-Awsat says: At 1630 hours, 1 September 2001, the constituent meeting of Jund al-Islam was held in the town of Tawilah following the unification of "Al-Tawhid" [unification] and Quwwat Soran" [soran forces] groups and in the presence of the following Arab Afghans: Abu-Wa'il, Abu-al-Darda, and Abu-Yasir. (All these are aliases and the three of them are specialists in sabotage operations, the use of TNT, and assassinations). Abu-Abdallah al-Shafi'i attended on behalf of Al-Tawhid and Molla Aswa, real name As'ad Muhammad Hasan, on behalf of Quwwat Suran. Hasan was born in 1962 and has a degree in geology. He joined the Islamic Unity Movement that is led by Shaykh Ali Abd-al-Aziz in 1991 and was elected member of its Central Shurah Council at its 7th conference in 1997. But he split from it at the end of the 1990's and founded the "Quwwat Suran".

The document adds that Usamah Bin-Ladin blessed the unification of the two movements under the new appellation of Jund al-Islam and gave it a (gift) of 6m Iraqi dinars, around 300,000 dollars, through two Al-Qa'idah elements who lived in London and then moved to Afghanistan: Abu-Mas'ab al-Suri and Abu-Basir. The latter's real name is Shaykh Abd-al-Mun'im Mustafa Abu-Halimah (Jordanian and has several books that have become a jurisprudence curricula for fundamentalists. These include "Rules in Expiation", "The Rule on the Legality of Seizing the Polytheists' Possessions" and the "Idol." He wrote another book that is no less sensationalist entitled "The Nice Answers to the Questions of Kurdistan's Strangers.") According to the document, these two are the liaison officers between Al-Qa'ida and its branches in the world, including north Iraq.

The document details information about a special group that was sent to Afghanistan on 12 July for training in Bin-Ladin's camps.

The number of armed elements known as the Arab Afghans in the Jund al-Islam ranks is 60. They were all trained in Al-Qa'idah camps and some of them took part in the Chechnya war.

The Jund al-Islam's Central Shura Council includes Kurds, Arabs, and Afghans. The group uses a local radio station for its media activities that it had set up in Darkashikhan near the town of Bayyarah, the fundamentalist group's main stronghold near the border with Iran.

[monsoon]

[ShowMeKC]

100,000 is an estimate real more reliable stats put civilians killed over 14,000... (confirmed/reported)

There are so far nearly 1,000 Iraqi Soldiers killed in this war... (a .8 kill ratio)

However we have over 10,000 Iraqi POW's in our hands...

Only 8 American POW's in terrorist hands...

1,131 Americans Dead or POW's (in Iraqi Freedom)

10,488 Terrorists Dead or POW's (in Iraqi Freedom)

You can't justify the death of 1 American by killing more enemies, it can only be justified by liberating Iraq...

BTW we currently have over 110,000 Troops in Iraq vs. 255,000 at the invasion..

John 15:13

"Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

-Yehoshua