Fort Myers: Project & Construction List

[Florida]

that is indeed quite respectable.

[OCF]

I think it's inaccurate to characterize Fort Myers as a quaint little town of only 50,000 residents. Although it's true Fort Myers has has only 50,000 residents within the city limits, Fort Myers like many Florida cities has a relatively low population compared to it's metro population. Fort Myers is the county seat and cultural and commercial center of Lee county, one of the nation fastest growing counties that at last count had a population over 500,000 and is expected to be in the 750,000 range within 10-15 years. If you take the entire southwest Florida area of Lee, Collier and Charlotte counties which is the Naples, Fort Myers, Cape Coral, Port Charlotte metro area you have a population close to 1 million people. I grew up in the area back when Lee county was a small budding community of around 350,000. Over the past few years it has exploded and with FGCU, the revitalization of downtown FM and the new Southwest Florida International Airport there seems to be no end in sight. But the great thing about this area is that through it all, Southwest Florida has retained it's small town feel. Friday night high school football and the county fair are still local traditions while national and international performers and headliners often perform at Germain arena which is also home to 3 minor league sports franchised including hockey, football and basketball. Fort Myers also has the distinction of being the only city in Florida with two spring training teams who each have their own stadiums. I'm sorry to have ranted on like this, but being from the area I just wanted to give a better picture of the area and share in the enthusiasm of the ongoing boom there.

[Aessotariq]

Local insight and contrasting points of view are always welcome. Thanks for sharing.

[Aporkalypse]

The Ft Myers area was named the nation's fastest growing economy this year and home prices and new construction is moving at a blistering pace throughout SW Florida with Naples taking the lead. Lee and Collier Cos are quickly becoming a single economy.

http://www.webspawner.com/users/petergotts...untysecono.html

As for Ft Myers being smaller, Lee Co has 484, 000 people as of 2003 census estimates and Collier County 277,000. Comparatively, Sarasota Co has 340, 000 and Manatee Co 280, 000 so Ft Myers' metro is already larger. Cape Coral is Florida's fastest growing mid to large city and now has 138k residents, more then West Palm, Boca Raton, or Sarasota and it will easily pass Ft Lauderdale within 5 years.

Ft Myers has more of a traditional business economy than places like Naples and Sarasota that rely heavily on tourism which is why it will eventually become Southwest Florida's business center and the big office buildings will come.

I am a physician and would be elated to find my way to Sarasota, Ft Myers, Bradenton or Naples when the opportunity arises in two years. Southwest Florida is America's boomland right now.

Here's the list of fastest-growing economies with this year and last year's rankings:

1. (3) Fort Myers-Cape Coral

2. (2) Las Vegas

3. (43) Phoenix-Mesa, Ariz.

4. (4) West Palm Beach-Boca Raton

5. (116) Daytona Beach

6. (41) Sarasota-Bradenton

7. (1) Fayetteville-Springdale-Rogers, Ark.

8. (20) Riverside-San Bernardino, Calif.

9. (29) Fort Lauderdale

10. (10) Monmouth-Ocean, N.J.

[FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER]

I lived in Fort Myers when its population was only 22,000 or so (long time ago).

It is quite interesting but exciting to see Fort Myers boom this way. A city of 50,000 with skyscrapers of 32 stories or higher? WOW! But I see this area of Florida continuing to boom and Fort Myers should have this type of building and population boom because of tourism and other associated service type industries.

Fort Myers will be a premier City in the next couple decades in Florida; up there with Fort Lauderdale, Orlando, etc. You can bet on it!

FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER

[asonj23]

I was in Bonita Springs over the weekend for a mini vacation and have to say that the Fort Myers area is absolutely beautiful. That area corners the market in tropical Florida beauty. I was also supprised at how up-scale the Bonita Springs area is. I had no idea it was such the destination for visitors world wide. I stayed at the Hilton Resort and was truely taken by hte beauty of the landscape.

I didn't get a chance to visit Fort Myers but I do understand why there is a current population explosion. I may move there too!

[Aporkalypse]

I was in Bonita Springs over the weekend for a mini vacation and have to say that the Fort Myers area is absolutely beautiful.  That area corners the market in tropical Florida beauty.  I was also supprised at how up-scale the Bonita Springs area is.  I had no idea it was such the destination for visitors world wide.  I stayed at the Hilton Resort and was truely taken by hte beauty of the landscape.

    I didn't get a chance to visit Fort Myers but I do understand why there is a current population explosion.  I may move there too!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bonita is kind of suburban Naples, its poshness is tied into that of Naples. Most people don't know this, but Collier County (Naples, Bonita, and Marco Island) has the highest home prices in Florida - well ahead of Palm Beach Co.

Fort Myers is nice but a little less resortish and more of a working town and regional center.

Honestly, the entire SW Florida area from Bradenton just south of St Pete all the way down to Naples has some of the most picturesque and upscale, high quality of life parts of Florida. Unfortunately because of this home prices are booming the whole way up and down that coast. Still, people are moving to the area in droves.

If you liked that area, be sure to visit Sarasota as well, it really is a first class city.

[Aporkalypse]

I lived in Fort Myers when its population was only 22,000 or so (long time ago).

It is quite interesting but exciting to see Fort Myers boom this way.  A city of 50,000 with skyscrapers of 32 stories or higher?  WOW!  But I see this area of Florida continuing to boom and Fort Myers should have this type of building and population boom because of tourism and other associated service type industries.

Fort Myers will be a premier City in the next couple decades in Florida; up there with Fort Lauderdale, Orlando, etc.  You can bet on it!

FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cape Coral now has 144,000 and is literally the beneficiary of the most absurd growth anywhere in Florida. The way it is subdivided eventually its population could exceed half a million. There is far less residential land available in Ft Myers but it has the benefit of being the location of almost all the commercial development and places of employment in Lee County and because of this appears a city much, much greater than its size.

Cape Coral may not have a building higher than 5 stories, despite being quite a bit larger than WPB and Sarasota. It just developed as a residential community for Ft Myers.

[jim09091]

I am currently in Boston but have lived for a few years in Bonita Beach (Bonita Springs). My family still is down therein Bonita and had purchased property on the water in 2000 that is now worth an out of sight amount.

There really wasn't much to Bonita 10-15 years ago and it really has exponentially grown in the past 5 years or so. It is only a few years from being built out and the new booming area is now the town inbetween Fort Myers and Bonita Springs: Estero. Techincally, Bonita Springs is in Lee County and a report that came out last week stated that the average median home price (published by the Bonita Springs & Estero area realtors) in this area is now 500k..... as is the median home price for Collier county (Naples).

The homes are appreciating northward towards Fort Myers and I truly can see this place booming (the city of Fort Myers itself) within the next 5 years. We have purchased pre-construction in both the Cypress Club (on the Caloosahatchee in Fort Myers) and in Rapallo (next two one of the two new and under construction malls in the Estero area: Town Center)

This part of SW Florida has really changed a lot from retirees and open land, but even with all the new construction it has held on to more of a smaller area feel than the east coast. Our biggest problem now is infrastructure as the building of roads cannot keep the pace with the new construction. Our new airport (Southwest Florida International; just a replacement for the smaller and outdated terminal) just opened a few weeks ago and there was already a report out about it's first expansion having the potential to break ground in 2010 or so.

Also, with Lee County this year breaking the 500k mark and becoming the 10th largest county in the state, it has gained a lot of attention. It is also the 20th fastest growing county in the country, and all this without taking into account the populations of Collier County (Naples, Marco, but most of the population is in unincorporated Collier County labeled as "Naples" or Golden Gate, etc).

"Based on nearly 5,500 closed sales for the month of August, the median single-family home price in Bonita Springs is slightly more than $500,000

[Aporkalypse]

I am currently in Boston but have lived for a few years in Bonita Beach (Bonita Springs). My family still is down therein Bonita and had purchased property on the water in 2000 that is now worth an out of sight amount.

There really wasn't much to Bonita 10-15 years ago and it really has exponentially grown in the past 5 years or so. It is only a few years from being built out and the new booming area is now the town inbetween Fort Myers and Bonita Springs: Estero. Techincally, Bonita Springs is in Lee County and a report that came out last week stated that the average median home price (published by the Bonita Springs & Estero area realtors) in this area is now 500k..... as is the median home price for Collier county (Naples).

The homes are appreciating northward towards Fort Myers and I truly can see this place booming (the city of Fort Myers itself) within the next 5 years. We have purchased pre-construction in both the Cypress Club (on the Caloosahatchee in Fort Myers) and in Rapallo (next two one of the two new and under construction malls in the Estero area: Town Center)

This part of SW Florida has really changed a lot from retirees and open land, but even with all the new construction it has held on to more of a smaller area feel than the east coast. Our biggest problem now is infrastructure as the building of roads cannot keep the pace with the new construction. Our new airport (Southwest Florida International; just a replacement for the smaller and outdated terminal) just opened a few weeks ago and there was already a report out about it's first expansion having the potential to break ground in 2010 or so.

Also, with Lee County this year breaking the 500k mark and becoming the 10th largest county in the state, it has gained a lot of attention. It is also the 20th fastest growing county in the country, and all this without taking into account the populations of Collier County (Naples, Marco, but most of the population is in unincorporated Collier County labeled as "Naples" or Golden Gate, etc).

"Based on nearly 5,500 closed sales for the month of August, the median single-family home price in Bonita Springs is slightly more than $500,000

[jim09091]

Something has to happen with the roads in Lee County. Collier's not that bad but every road in Ft Myers, Ft Myers Beach, etc is just absurdly clogged. Tamiami in Ft Myers is worse than any road in Miami or Tampa.

I agree, the roads are awful. The biggest problem is that there are just not enough roads to move all the people. Combine that with the driving styles of so many people from so many different places and you end up with huge backups and lots of serious accidents.

I-75 widening will begin in the next few years from Naples northward to Ft. Myers. The states budget is allowing for the addition of one lane in each direction and a few new interchanges. A new local turnpike board has been set up with the hopes of being able to add additional toll lanes in addtion to the state widening project. These would be express lanes with minimal exits.

Also, 951 extension plans are on the table to run it (possibly as a toll road) north from Naples, through Bonita and into Fort Myers. Several other major road additions and expansions are planned but these were planned too late as many did not see the boom that came to the area in time. Although it is going to get worse for the near future, hopefully solutions will be enacted to help relieve some of the congestion (and I stress hopefully).

[Aporkalypse]

I agree, the roads are awful. The biggest problem is that there are just not enough roads to move all the people. Combine that with the driving styles of so many people from so many different places and you end up with huge backups and lots of serious accidents.

I-75 widening will begin in the next few years from Naples northward to Ft. Myers. The states budget is allowing for the addition of one lane in each direction and a few new interchanges. A new local turnpike board has been set up with the hopes of being able to add additional toll lanes in addtion to the state widening project. These would be express lanes with minimal exits.

Also, 951 extension plans are on the table to run it (possibly as a toll road) north from Naples, through Bonita and into Fort Myers. Several other major road additions and expansions are planned but these were planned too late as many did not see the boom that came to the area in time. Although it is going to get worse for the near future, hopefully solutions will be enacted to help relieve some of the congestion (and I stress hopefully).

How do you like living there? I'm an oncologist in Dallas and I was really struck by Southwest Florida when I visited and I'm keeping my eyes open for opportunities there. Are the people friendlier than South Florida?

[Florida]

You mean... south-east Florida?

[Aporkalypse]

You mean... south-east Florida?

Well, I mean for whatever reason Palm Beach, Broward, and Miami-Dade cos are collectively referred to as "South Florida" as a consolidated metro area and that's what I was referring to. Of course, USF is in Tampa and is quite a ways away from Miami, so I guess "South Florida" has a lot of different definitions.

[prahaboheme]

South Florida: Miami Metro

Southwest Florida: Naples/Fort Myers

Tampa is more Central Florida.

[Florida]

Well to me, South Florida is anything South of Tampa... despite the fact that Dade/Broward/Palm Beach has succeeded in taking ownership of the term.

[jim09091]

How do you like living there? I'm an oncologist in Dallas and I was really struck by Southwest Florida when I visited and I'm keeping my eyes open for opportunities there. Are the people friendlier than South Florida?

I think it is a great area. It has really been coming into its own lately... more than just a stop of the beaten path as it has been. The biggest issue right now is the huge jumps in housing prices lately, with the entire area between Estero down south to Naples having median house prices above $500k.

To me, it is paradise. I find most of the people here are not too bad, not over, in-your-face-friendly but not nasty. I lived for many years on the east coast of FL from Miami northward to Boca and will say it had more of an "east-coast U.S." mentality to it vs. the southwest coast of FL has more of a midwest mentality. Though I am seeing signs of change with the influx of people... I just hope that some lessons can be learned from some of the over-building that has been seen on the southeast coast.

Also, I wanted to add this in addition of what I was saying earlier about the plans for I-75:

Lee to take up question of expressway authority Oct. 18

By John Henderson

Wednesday, October 12, 2005

Whether a new expressway authority that could issue bonds to build toll lanes on Interstate 75 gets up and running is now up to Lee County to decide.

Tuesday, Collier County commissioners approved a resolution supporting the creation of the Southwest Florida Expressway Authority, an entity that will study the possibility of adding an additional four toll lanes to the interstate through Collier and Lee counties.

Before the authority can get started it needs approval from the Lee County Commission. Lee commissioners are scheduled to take up a similar resolution establishing an expressway authority on Oct. 18.

Legislation allowing the creation of the authority was sponsored by state Rep. Mike Davis, R-Naples, who tried several sessions to get the bill passed before being successful at the last outing.

I-75 is scheduled to be widened by the state to six lanes from four lanes in 2008. Work should take a couple of years to complete. Ten lanes aren't scheduled to be in place until 2030.

Creating the additional four lanes as toll lanes, at least initially, could result in the lanes being built much earlier than anticipated, something that officials say is sorely needed on the congested interstate to keep up with growth.

Some officials believe I-75's six lanes will be at or near capacity the day they open.

The Florida Turnpike Enterprise has embarked on a study of whether toll lanes on I-75 in Southwest Florida are feasible.

The study was expected to have been done by now, but the turnpike enterprise is waiting on figures in the county's latest long-range plans.

The enterprise report is slated to be released in March, said Dave Loveland, Lee County's chief transportation planner on Tuesday.

"One thing they'll do is update the overall cost estimate," he said, adding that the last estimate he saw for the toll project was $800 million.

"It's probably going to be higher than that," he said.

Loveland said if the enterprise were to be involved in the toll project, the bonds must be paid back in 22 years.

"My expectation is they are probably going to conclude they are not going to able to do it by themselves," he said.

Loveland said there is a chance a partnership could be formed with the authority, the turnpike enterprise, and private investors. Don Scott, the transportation planning director for Collier County, said Tuesday there are many ways to fund the toll project.

"There are private firms interested in doing that (putting up the money for the project)," Scott said.

Scott said he does not expect the turnpike enterprise to conclude that the interstate toll lanes are not feasible.

The legislation allows an authority director to be hired, but money has not been designated for a salary.

The authority's governing body will consist of seven voting members including a county commissioner from both counties.

Collier commissioners agreed Tuesday that Commissioner Jim Coletta be the first to hold the job.

Other voting members of the authority will include the executive director of the Southwest Florida Regional Planning Council and a resident of Collier and Lee County.

The Collier Commission recently began advertising for applications for those interested in being the citizen representative.

There will also be two gubernatorial appointees from both counties picked from a list submitted by county commissioners.

link: http://www.bonitanews.com/news/2005/oct/12...thority_oct_18/

[Aporkalypse]

I hope they don't go toll-crazy in Southwest Florida. The Sanibel Causeway toll ($6???) is pretty absurd. The area will need a lot of new roads and I hope they don't get as toll-happy or more than they did up in Orlando. Federal money needs to support some of this road-building.

[jim09091]

By Julio Ochoa (Contact)

Thursday, November 3, 2005

The widening of Interstate 75 in Lee and Collier counties from four to six lanes will be completed four years ahead of schedule thanks to additional funding from the Gov. Jeb Bush's Growth Management Bill, the Florida Department of Transportation announced Wednesday.

The bill allocates $106 million to the $424 million project, which will widen to six lanes 35 miles of I-75 from Golden Gate Parkway to State Road 80 and improve interchanges at Immokalee Road and Daniels Parkway.

Local FDOT officials expect to bid the project out in early 2007, with contractors completing the work in three years so the road is ready by 2009, said Stan Cann, FDOT's secretary for District One, which includes 12 counties in Southwest Florida.

The money is part $3.1 billion in transportation improvements that are made possible by the growth management bill signed into law in June.

FDOT officials in Tallahassee conferred with their local districts to decide which projects to fund.

The Southwest Florida International Airport will also get more than $19 million in funding to improve parking for commercial aircraft and to design a parallel runway.

The I-75 money will allow FDOT to combine several separate projects on the interstate into one, making it one of the state's largest road projects.

"Doing all 35 miles at once is nuclear," said Rep. Mike Davis, R-Naples, who attended the press conference. "This was something that needed to be expedited to make a difference in the quality of life in Southwest Florida."

Though some projects on Interstate 75 were expected to be completed by 2010, the northern section and interchanges would have taken a few more years, said Debbie Tower, spokeswoman for FDOT.

Combined with local and federal funding, the $106 million was needed to make the project happen, she said.

The widening of Interstate 75 in Lee and Collier counties from four to six lanes will be completed four years ahead of schedule thanks to additional funding from the Gov. Jeb Bush's Growth Management Bill. The bill allocates $106 million to the $424 million project, which will widen to six lanes 35 miles of I-75 from Golden Gate Parkway to State Road 80 and improve interchanges at Immokalee Road and Daniels Parkway.

Photo by Erik Kellar / Bonita Daily News

The widening of Interstate 75 in Lee and Collier counties from four to six lanes will be completed four years ahead of schedule thanks to additional funding from the Gov. Jeb Bush's Growth Management Bill. The bill allocates $106 million to the $424 million project, which will widen to six lanes 35 miles of I-75 from Golden Gate Parkway to State Road 80 and improve interchanges at Immokalee Road and Daniels Parkway.

FDOT will use a new concept called design/build/finance when bidding the project to a contractor, Cann said. The contractor who wins the project will be paid over five years but be expected to complete the project in three years. FDOT will include a substantial bonus for early completion, Cann said.

"The benefits realized by our customers will be early relief of the everyday congestion on I-75 and having the work done all at once instead of piecemeal," Cann said.

Completing the project in three years will require larger crews and more equipment, Cann said.

With a shortage of local contractors for the amount of work in Southwest Florida, the contract will likely attract out-of-state companies, said Janet Watermeier, a local commissioner on the Florida Transportation Commission.

"We're building so many roads that our contractors have a hard time keeping up," Watermeier said. "When we have a project of this size, it attracts contractors from other states. Once they come here, they may stay here for other projects."

The money is a step in the right direction, said Lee County Commissioner John Albion, but more is needed for plans to 10 lane I-75 to become a reality.

FDOT does not plan to add four more lanes to the interstate until at least 2025, Cann said.

Local officials are creating a local transportation authority, which would be able to sell bonds to raise money for the project. State and federal support will also be needed, Albion said.

"We still need a total of, I think, $770 million for the project, but it's a step in the right direction," he said. "The timing is very opportune, because you can't just suddenly come up with $770 million to build a road."

The only concern, Albion said, was the timing. The county had hoped to have all the work on Three Oaks Parkway finished before the state tackles 75, giving motorists a nearby north-south alternative. With work on 41 dragging, he worried, the three projects could conceivably all be under way at once.

"I have no desire to delay 75, but does this affect that schedule?" he said. "It gets messy because 41 is taking a generation."

The money for improvements at Southwest Florida International Airport are also timely, said Bob Ball, executive director for the Lee County Port Authority.

The airport got $18.4 million to expand the commercial aircraft parking area and $750,000 to design a parallel runway.

The money be used to add at least five gates in Concourse B, put in more parking for planes, put additional floors on the parking garage and increase surface parking, Ball said.

The money will also allow the airport to start designing the additional runway earlier than expected, he said. The runway could cost up to $225 million and take five to 10 years to complete, Ball said.

The improvements will help the new terminal expand as the area grows so it doesn't get behind the curve, as was the case at the old terminal, he said.

"It's obvious that this airport and this region continue to grow," Ball said. "This puts us ahead of schedule."

Included in the $3.1 billion in transportation improvements is $2.8 billion in state money and $351 million in public and private partner funding.

It's part of a "pay as you go" proposal passed by the state legislature to provide enough roads, schools and water as Florida grows.

Staff Writer Charlie Whitehead contributed to this story.

http://www.bonitanews.com/news/2005/nov/03...ars/?local_news

[Florida]

Great job with that. Very imformative and I love the way you incorporated the visual to keep the reader engaged.

[prahaboheme]

Just found out I'll be spending Thanksgiving in the Naples area. We are staying at the Marco Island Marriott and this will be my first time in that part of Florida. Anyone have any suggestions for "must see" day activities, preferably outdoors? Also, how is the shopping/dining in the Naples area? I hear downtown is pretty upscale. I'm really looking forward to getting around, checking things out.

[jim09091]

Great job with that. Very imformative and I love the way you incorporated the visual to keep the reader engaged.

thanks!

[jim09091]

Just found out I'll be spending Thanksgiving in the Naples area. We are staying at the Marco Island Marriott and this will be my first time in that part of Florida. Anyone have any suggestions for "must see" day activities, preferably outdoors? Also, how is the shopping/dining in the Naples area? I hear downtown is pretty upscale. I'm really looking forward to getting around, checking things out.

Well there is a lot to see and do, depending on exactly what you like. 5th Avenue in Naples has a lot of stores, galleries, dining, etc.... you can take a look at http://www.fifthavenuesouth.com/ to give you an idea. There are also other shopping/dining areas like Bayfront (on the bay off of fifth ave http://www.bayfrontnaples.com/ ) , Village On Venetian Bay ( http://naples.com/village/ Take US 41 to Park Shore Drive (which heads west) to Gulf Shore Blvd. North. ), Tin-City ( http://www.tin-city.com/ U.S. 41 E @ Goodlette Road ), & Waterside Shops at Pelican Bay ( http://www.watersideshops.net/ Take US 41 North of Downtown and it is at the corner of it and Pine Ridge Road)

If you head further north there is the Promenade in Bonita Springs (on 41 north of Bonita Beach Road) http://bonitasprings.com/promenade/ and the Miromar Outlets in Estero ( http://www.miromar.com/florida.html ).

Outdoors..... well I have to recommend the beaches. The beaches are beautiful and lots of people gather at the pier in Naples for the incredible sunsets. There is a zoo in Naples but 1) I've never been and do not know much about it 2) Not sure if they are totally up and running after the hurricane.

You can always check out Ft. Myers beach too ( http://www.fortmyersbeach.org/ ) which is located north of Naples and Bonita Springs (if you look on a map.... go north on US 41 (tamiami trail) to Bonita Beach Road, turn left (west) and follow this road... it will curve northward when you reach the beach at Bonita (where I live) and you will then go through the Lover's Key State Park ( http://www.floridastateparks.org/loverskey/default.cfm & http://www.floridaparks.com/stprks/south_w...eystatepark.htm ). When you get past the park you will enter Ft. Myers Beach and keep heading north until you get to the "touristy" type area which has cafes, restaurants, little beach shops, etc).

Take a look at http://www.naples-florida.com/active.htm for some of the other outdoor activites in the Naples area.

Of course there are places to eat and do things on Marco Island (I just don't have a ton of experience there like I do in Bonita / Naples)...... you can look at http://www.marco-island-florida.com/ , http://www.marcoislandrestaurants.com/ , http://www.marcoisland.com/ )

Have a good time there... it's a beautiful place. And luckily everyone was prepared for Wilma and the clean-up has been moving quickly. I know the Mariott had minimal damage to begin with so everything should be taken care of when you get there.

[prahaboheme]

Wow thanks for all the information! That Explore Naples website rocks. It sounds like there is a ton of stuff in the area. I'm excited!

[Aporkalypse]

Just found out I'll be spending Thanksgiving in the Naples area. We are staying at the Marco Island Marriott and this will be my first time in that part of Florida. Anyone have any suggestions for "must see" day activities, preferably outdoors? Also, how is the shopping/dining in the Naples area? I hear downtown is pretty upscale. I'm really looking forward to getting around, checking things out.

Wife and I went there last year and I'm exploring relocating there. It's a terrific place.

The zoo would've been a nice place to take the kids but I understand it's out of commission because of the hurricane.

3rd and 5th avenues are as good for shopping and dining in a compact area as you'll find anywhere in Florida. It's fine to go grab a drink with the Mrs or to walk with your kids, unlike most other areas.

I would seriously consider taking a day and going to Everglades City and taking airboat tours, etc. It's not far away from Marco, just a 20 min drive.