Which Rail Line Should Charlotte Build Next?

[A2]

It would seem the one result of throwing out the rules that built the first LRT is that pork barrel politics has re-entered transportation funding in this country. Senator Orrin Hatch has managed to convince the Bush Adminstration to agree to 80% fund a new commuter rail system in Utah to the tune of $480M. (Total $540M) SLC already has a fairly expensive LRT. This is for a state that that has less than 2.7M people and for a city whose population is about 187,000 and losing population.

I guess anything is possible.

OK, now I am officially pissed off. I am astounded by this. If that is true metro then we need to have some people in congress ousted and quick. I think I might have to have a little call into my representative and see what the hell they are doing up there besides playing tidly-winks. Urrrrrgh

A2

[A2]

click here for a quick overview

EPA monitors AQ, and along with FHWA, FTA, review the region's Long Rang Transportation Plans each time it's redone, so that the plan complys with future AQ levels--basically so that plans show the AQ is either not getting worse. If a plan violates the AQ standard, all federal money for transportation projects stops. In 1999, Atlanta had 69 days that violated the AQ std! This happened to Atlanta from 1998 to 2000, and as you can imagine, it can cause major headaches for a region, including a major lawsuit by several environmental organizations. Anyway, terrible AQ caused Atlanta to wake up and begin a number of smart growth initiatives, which most of us would agree is a good thing. I think Charlotte planners probably saw what was happening in ATL, and realized land use/trans/AQ had better change course for Charlotte's future.

What happens when the lack of adequate infastructure is the direct cause of the bad air days? If you consider the fact that people are stuck in taffic for hours on an Interstate like 485 (in Southern Meck) because the road was built to small, then there is only so much you can do. CLT's outter belt is not even sufficient in size for a city half its size.

Or worse yet, what if your geographic position leads to a greater level of ozone and pollutants that would be found in a comprable city located somewhere that does not pollute as badly due to its geographc location?

I know tha thet Mountians can have some of the worst polution on the East Coast because of their location and the fact that factories from other states blow the polution over their region becasue of wind direction. That is why many of the trees are so heavily damaged in the Smokies.

Is that fair to penalyze them because they are at a geographic disadvantage?

I can see them taking road money away from ATL, because their zoning encouraged sprawl, but stripping Federal funding from them was at the time of little consequece since they had adequate Interstates, and were just content on adding even more lanes. So stopping fundng just helped them to build inward (at least to some degree).

I, for one , believe that their are more people seeking to be more friendly to the environment in CLT than in most cties I have visited or lived in. We currently allow for NO cul-de-sac developments going forward. We have tons of bike lanes throughout the city. Our mass transit comes readily equiped with bike racks, we have zoning that is favorable to TOD, we have eco-friendly buses, and so much more.

The fact that that the Fed's will punish us becasue the city is poluted concerns me. To me insuring that transit lines are built and addtional lanes are added where neeeded would cut down on pollutants. Deprivng one of the fastest growing cities in the US road money will only allow the problem to grow.

[Mobuchu]

What happens when the lack of adequate infastructure is the direct cause of the bad air days? If you consider the fact that people are stuck in taffic for hours on an Interstate like 485 (in Southern Meck) because the road was built to small, then there is only so much you can do. CLT's outter belt is not even sufficient in size for a city half its size.

So 485 was a big mistake. It runs around the outside of Meck, so basically it serves sprawl and the counties just outside of Mecklenburg, instead of the residents of Charlotte.

So the damage is done. What do we do now? People continue to move to these area's knowing that traffic is terrible along 485 and 77. But after moving there they complain about traffic (south Charlotte/Ballentyne) and how we need to widen 485 to help the traffic problem, its been all over the news for the last couple years. Should we widen it? It's a catch22, if we widen it, more will move in and the traffic will just catch up. If we dont, they will continue to complain and our air quality will continue to decline.

I cant believe people are still for Outer belt loops like this! I say leave 485 the way it is in the south and let them learn their lesson.

Its like the people who buy a new cookie cutter house that backs up against a freight train line and then complain about the noise from the train and how it keeps their baby up all night!!! HELLO, the problem was there long before you bought your pretty new home...

Arrgggg, mistakes of the past are surely going to hurt us.

[monsoon]

Yes the damage is done with 485 and because the county and city did not stick to it's guns with limiting development, it is a disaster along its oldest portions. (Hwy 521 to I-77) If they did not allow the exchanges to be developed the road would serve its intended purpose as transportation system and not a sprawl generator. This is not happening of course as NorthLake is but the latest example. The Feds don't have any other mechanism to stop cities from allowing irresponsible development such as Ballentyne, except to cut off the money.

The problem is not being caused by the Feds, but by the Charlotte City Council bending over to any developer that wants to throw up a crappy automobile inspired development.

[SmellyCat]

Ironically enough, I have heard less-than-enlightened people (who probably believe sprawl is good) say that they moved to the North Charlotte and eastern (Mint Hill) outskirts BECAUSE of 485. I swear this is true...they believe their property values will go up once the Northern portion of 485 is built because it will lead to easier access to the city and all the great things built alongside 485.

[ChiefJoJo]

What happens when the lack of adequate infastructure is the direct cause of the bad air days?

Or worse yet, what if your geographic position leads to a greater level of ozone and pollutants that would be found in a comprable city located somewhere that does not pollute as badly due to its geographc location? Is that fair to penalyze them because they are at a geographic disadvantage?

I, for one , believe that their are more people seeking to be more friendly to the environment in CLT than in most cties I have visited or lived in.

It's Charlotte and the state of NC's job to address the issues of public infrastructure so that the air quality improves. Transit, bus, compact development, closing coal plants, HOV, carpooling, ozone action days, telecommute... whatever is needed must be done. That's what the Clean Air Act and EPA says regions must plan for (AQ is definitely regional, not just Charlotte). The SE is at an extreme disadvantage AQ wise, as our air is very stagnant during the warmest months, which coincides with ozone levels from CO2 emissions. The answer is no, it doesn't matter if you live by the ocean and benefit from the seabreeze reducing smog--it all counts the same. If you think about having good AQ as a health care issue instead of a bureaucratic nuisance, then the issue becomes a lot clearer. The problem is that most ppl don't see it that way. They can't really SEE ozone or nitrogen oxide, or particulate matter in the atmosphere, but it's there, and it causes a lot of health problems--especially for children.

WRT the job Charlotte is doing now, I think the region is making strides, but better growth control measures need to be continually enforced to keep things on track. Remember that a lot of the poor AQ Charlotte has now is a result of the development decisions (sprawl) that were made 20-30 years ago. You don't change the makeup of a city overnight, but now things are trending on the "right" path.

Back on topic. I already voted, but I think the N line and streetcar should go next. North Meck has done a great job with land use up there. This would put a priority on the Gateway Station too. How nice is that going to be when you can take a high speed train, amtrak, N line commuter rail, taxi, greyhound, etc. all to one spot!

[monsoon]

A little news from the MTC

Blue Line NorthEast Extension

• The NE extension of the Blue line will have a station on UNCC, but will not cross 485. The cost of building a bridge does only adds about 200 riders/day.

• They did not choose the Sugar Creek alignment which is a disappointment as it would have directly served the Asian mall. However this option is still a possiblility due to the opportunities for development that don't exist with the now current route.

• This extension is now expected to cost $585M in today's money

Center City Streetcar Line

• This is the route that would run streetcars from Rosa Parks transportation center to Eastland mall. It would run down Beatties Ford, Trade and Central using rail trolleys that would hold 30 people sitting, 90 standing for a total of 120.

• Route is 10 miles

• CATS is estimating this line will cost $250M which is twice as expensive as predicted and more costly than some of the options being studied for the North Commuter Rail line. This is a fairly significant item as biting off this project is a much more of a financial hit than originally thought.

• CATS has not calculated how much additional ridership would result from this project. It is already well served by city buses.

Some comments:

• The termination of the NE Extension means the Blue line is contained entirely within the city of Charlotte with the exception of the park and ride lot at the edge of Pineville. This pretty much shuts off Cabarrus county from participating in the system unless significant amounts of money are brought to the table to build a bridge across 485. Bruton Smith and Verizon Ampitheatre will have hinted they might come to the table with some money but it is a disappointment these two venues won't be served by the line.

• 485 is proving to be a barrior to extending the transit out of Charlotte. At the moment the only likely place where this will happen will be the North Commuter Rail line and that is mainly because 485 isn't built over that part of the route and they will accomidate the line with a bridge that is included in the cost of the highway.

• $250M for the streetcar system greatly changes when this line might be built. Unless CATS can demonstrate that it increases ridership significantly over the bus system, its not likely to receive federal funding.

[dubone]

Just to clarify about the Streetcar project, for a long time, the only part that has been talked about as being around $100m was the Trade St Phase I. The cost of the complete line between Eastland and 85/Beatties Ford has not grown by that much. The first phase is still only $116m, which isn't that much to bite off.

This also hits their longstanding target of roughly $25m/mi, which they said was typical for streetcars (and actually a little on the low side).

It should also be noted that ridership for this line currently comes in at 14000-16000, which is more than double that of the similarly priced North line. They also noted that the ridership model might omit some short trips that people might consider.

The streetcar seems to be presented more favorably in its ability to get federal funds than the North line. But if the North line can get private funds, then that might be moot.

[monsoon]

The streetcar seems to be presented more favorably in its ability to get federal funds than the North line. But if the North line can get private funds, then that might be moot.

Federal rules do not allow them to count ridership by removing bus lines which this project will do. They can count the net add due to building it, but that is far less given the ridership that already serves this area and would not be cost effective. Until CATS can provide this difference, this line is not going to move forward.

At the moment we have 4 of 6 transit lines that are only going to serve Charlotte and two that will serve the other towns, but Charlotte only gets one vote on the 9 member MTC. It's not hard to see where this is going to go when it comes up to a vote late this year. If the towns join forces, then the next two lines to be built will be the North line and the SE line.

[dubone]

I'm only observing how they were presented at the two MTC meetings. The North line discussion included much more references to risks preventing federal funding. The North line also has bus riders, as 77X is parallel to the North line.

The Central and BF bus lines have so many riders right now, that the costs for keeping it a bus line are extremely high. There is actually a major operational and maintenance cost savings from switching to streetcar.

I'm not about the local politics, but there is no question that the coalition really relies on the North line moving forward. I am a big supporter of that line. So if it is true that competition and federal funds are no longer able to be won for commuter rail lines, then I would support the various methods for getting it built, be it bonds, private support, or fighting for a larger state contribution.

But I would hope that the politics isn't so petty that viable lines are somehow scuttled simply because they don't go through a suburban town.

To me, I hope that the following will happen: the N line gets funding with that private coalition that was rumored before, the streetcar line's phase I goes for Small Starts funding this year (they are only asking for $58m from the feds), and the NE line Phase I would be requested of the New Starts.

[orulz]

485 is proving to be a barrior to extending the transit out of Charlotte. At the moment the only likely place where this will happen will be the North Commuter Rail line and that is mainly because 485 isn't built over that part of the route and they will accomidate the line with a bridge that is included in the cost of the highway.

Good point. The ironic part is that if the transit route had been decided when the design work was being done for 485, bridges under the interstate could have been thrown in along with the highway project and nobody would have so much batted an eyelash at the added cost.

[monsoon]

The Central and BF bus lines have so many riders right now, that the costs for keeping it a bus line are extremely high. There is actually a major operational and maintenance cost savings from switching to streetcar.

Converting the line to streetcars will save $400K/year. At that savings rate it will take 600 years to make up the difference.

[dubone]

It is one of many factors.

I don't really want to contrast the N line with the streetcar line, as I really do want them both to happen. But there really seems to be more doubt on the federal funds for the N line than the streetcar.

Just as a comparison, the total daily ridership of the N line is expected to be 7000 in 2030, with a cost of $230m-$250m. The fully extended streetcar line will have 14000-16700 daily riders, with a cost of $246m-$252m.

Even though the feds look at net new riders, it is just one part of their formula. They look cost/benefit in general. The operating and maintenance costs are one part of it. Even if it is only $400k/y, that will at least offset 5 or 10% of the cost of the project. This is the only one of the projects that have such large existing ridership where there are any operational savings to speak of.

Also, the streetcar is planned for phases, so the project could much more easily fit within the small starts budget.

I'm not quite sure why the North line is considered more viable when it costs almost exactly the same, but has only about half of the ridership. It may be more important politically, and that may cause it to win out in the end. But if other lines are more viable, and will be able to win the federal funds, that would be the a sound next step.

[monsoon]

Just as a comparison, the total daily ridership of the N line is expected to be 7000 in 2030, with a cost of $230m-$250m. The fully extended streetcar line will have 14000-16700 daily riders, with a cost of $246m-$252m.

At best the streetcar line will add about 4K - 6K new riders along the route as the buses are already carrying 10.5K on the route now. That isn't much of a gain for a quarter of a billion dollars. It really isn't cost effective to build it.

The ridership numbers you are giving for the North line do not include the effects of $1.5B in TOD that have been already been announced for the line, and more to come.

[revitalize]

What we really need are some private enitities to just step up and pay the tab for one or all of the proposed rail lines. If I had the cash to burn, I would love to make a giant donation to the County/City. Anyone up for it? Actually... do you think the local gov't would accept something like this?

[monsoon]

I believe they would depending upon the terms that were proposed. I believe this very discussion is occuring on the North CR line project as several businesses are interested in partnering with CATS on the project.

[RiverwoodCLT]

Do you think Smith will chip in and pay for NE line up to LMS and

Concord Mills? He said he would invest in a monrail if we got the NCHOF. I have not hear anything.

[MZT]

No surprise here, on ending the NE line before 485.

I've said all along the financial tea leaves were not lining up to get it to Verizon Ampitheater. Even if they were still planning the bridge, I'd forecast it to be likely dropped... before any backhoes really get moving.

I'm with metro on the streetcar system. New ridership won't be affected enough to interest the feds. But maybe if the amount requested was really low, it will get through.

The politcal and economic momentum is behind the north line. The real squabbling to be settled is how the west, southeast, or northeast lines get built.

I'll put my next stake in the ground, and say the SE line will not be light rail.

I'm already wondering if Mint Hill and Matthews would settle for a nice upscale transit center somewhere, if BRT is too expensive as well or appears to be too far in the future. They may be tempted to quit the MTC, if their share of the transit tax just serves Charlotte and north Meck.

[monsoon]

I can see that happening when they are being asked to pay taxes to fund a massive transit system and all they get for their efforts is one fancy bus stop. I think in regards to the center city streetcar line, that should be paid for in part out of the city of Charlotte general fund.

[dubone]

So are you saying that the most transit-supporting section of Charlotte should be excluded from Charlotte Area Transit System funds?

The half cent sales tax, and the CATS and MTC program is intended to fund transit in this region. Transit should not simply be located places because people want it. Instead, it is located based on need, ability to win federal or private funds, and based on rational policy. The primary use of the transit tax is the bus system. The bus system is routed based on ridership and need, too, and serves the entire county.

The half cent sales tax only covers 56% of the CATS budget, which barely covers the bus operations itself. 17% of the CATS budget is covered directly by the Charlotte city budget. So if you consider that a high percentage of the sales tax is raised within Charlotte, that the city covers a large amount of the budget directly, and considering that a high percentage of the fare collections are raised in Charlotte, it makes sense that a high percentage of the capital investments would also be within the city. The suburbs are important, and that is reflected in their voting status, but they aren't and shouldn't be of primary importance.

Gladly, I think that the actual voters on the MTC realise this is the reality, and aren't suggesting ideas like that.

[AuLukey]

While LMS and VWA are cut out of the equation for now, I do see their owners, and possibly the Concord Mills area business partnership putting together some funds maybe five or six years after the initial line gets built. Until then, I doubt we'll hear anything from those parties.

As for the MTC, I believe that, even though the LRT does not yet serve Pineville directly, Pineville itself does have a lot of its citizens who will probably use the line via park and ride. Thus, I feel they would probably vote towards the NE line as it would further extend the range of their line to help their citizens go to places like UNCC, NoDa, and bus stops closer to Concord Mills, LMS (1 mile away from line termination,) and Verizon Wireless. (A short stroll down Tryon to Pavillion Blvd.) As for Matthews, I'm sure they know they have lost and they are pretty much "pals" with Pineville, so I see their intentions going that way. Otherwise, the North Line pretty much gets the majority of votes for obvious geographic reasons. So, as much as it may pain me to say it, the North line will be next followed by NE sometime in the next decade. By then, more growth could have been aimed towards the NE section of Meck as 485 should hopefully be completed by that point.

If these are plans and they aren't actually planning to go ahead and start on the NE line now, I see no purpose in setting exactly where the line will terminate as I am sure LMS and Concord will eventually voice their opinions on the matter depending on the SE line's popularity. We're talking a decade, Charlotte will be a completely different metro by then.

[monsoon]

So are you saying that the most transit-supporting section of Charlotte should be excluded from Charlotte Area Transit System funds?

The half cent sales tax, and the CATS and MTC program is intended to fund transit in this region.

All of the regional transit in this area mostly serves Charlotte. Even on the North CR line which is the only one that has more than one stop outside of Charlotte, Charlotte still has the most stations on that line. I think the taxpayers are ok however with the 5 radial lines as they are creating 5 new transit corridors.

The streetcar line however is simply replacing a bus line with a streetcar on an existing transit corridor. It's not clear to me that changing out a bus with rubber tires for one that has steel wheels is going to do much beyond that. This isn't building regional transit but rather an equipment upgrade on an already existing corridor. In this case I think the city should have a bigger hand in paying for it since it is the only one benefiting from it.

[monsoon]

If these are plans and they aren't actually planning to go ahead and start on the NE line now, I see no purpose in setting exactly where the line will terminate .....

They do this because it allows them to properly direct growth in support for the line. Once the exact locations of the line and stations are known, zoning can be changed to reflect that, and developers can build around future stations.

[ChiefJoJo]

While LMS and VWA are cut out of the equation for now, I do see their owners, and possibly the Concord Mills area business partnership putting together some funds maybe five or six years after the initial line gets built. Until then, I doubt we'll hear anything from those parties.

I understand the sentiment, but does anyone think ppl will take the NE line to the mall or LMS? I don't see it. The mall is across I-85 and the land use out there is sprawl, sprawl, sprawl. Then you have CMS, and we've discussed before, LRT is not feasible for serving sporting events. The capacity just isn't there, especially for 150,000 race fans in trucks, SUVs and RVs, who aren't likely to ride anyway. Just my 2 cents.

[nyxmike]

If it's going to be expanded into Cabarrus County, they should consider extending it to Harrisburg instead of Concord Mills or LMS. Isn't that a fast growing town full of commuters into Charlotte?