Which Rail Line Should Charlotte Build Next?

[monsoon]

The other option would be to do what they're doing in the triangle: regional rail, which is not light rail but is neither heavy rail nor commuter rail either. ....

But personally I'd rather see all the corridors use the same technology.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nice post orulz. I learned a couple of things from it. The RiverLine in New Jersey might be a train that reflects the Triangle system and what you suggest for Independence.

This could happen on the North commuter rail line as well. From what I understand there was at least discussions between CATS, the TTA and/or the NCDOT that would allow CATS to purchase cars on the same contract the TTA was using to buy trains. This would have reduced the overall cost for both systems. I am not sure where this stands now considering the TTA is still not yet funded by the Feds and the opening date has been moved out yet another year.

[uptownliving]

I think the TTA has already placed the order for their cars...and its different from what CATS is going to get for the North line. CATS wants Amtrak style diesel passenger trains for the North line and that is not what TTA has ordered. There is an article on this somewhere in the N&O.

[dubone]

I think the TTA has already placed the order for their cars...and its different from what CATS is going to get for the North line. CATS wants Amtrak style diesel passenger trains for the North line and that is not what TTA has ordered. There is an article on this somewhere in the N&O.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

could you clarify that info a bit?

Did TTA not get diesel units, or is it just that TTA went with DMUs that are different somehow that amtraks? Out of curiousity, why does CATS prefer amtrak-style trains over the TTA-style? Is it a matter of Amtrak trains having more engineers/parts/repairmen, etc. or somethin else?

[monsoon]

There have been no decisions made on the North Commuter rail line.

As we speak it is only a proposal which may or may not get built. The communities this line would mainly serve also do not trust CATS and may have the final say in what actually does get built. The company the TTA placed their order with, is also in court now for the way it placed bids on cars for cars on the line.

The bottom line is it is too early to say what will be used on either system. And the discussions for using the same cars on both lines may be back on the table. Since the NCDOT is being asked to pay a large percentage for both, expect them to have a say as well.

[dubone]

Since TTA has already ordered, is there a chance for any cost savings from going with the same company/design, or would it all be longer term savings, like sharing parts?

[uptownliving]

There have not been any official decisions made yet for CATS as far as choosing the cars...however in my conversations with the North Project Manager David Carol...he indicated they are leaning towards Amtrak style trains and not DMU....thats why you have heard conversations about eliminating either one of the Charlotte stations or the Hambright station in Huntersville.

David Carol actually worked for Amtrak for 20 years before joining CATS.

dubone, TTA did order DMU from United Transit System....just not Amtrak style...but as monsoon has indicated the supplier was in court however that was regarding a contract from the Philly Transit system...that case was dismissed when the Philly system put the contract out for bid again...not sure if that has any affect on the TTA contract or not.

[dubone]

dubone, TTA did order DMU from United Transit System....just not Amtrak style...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the info. I think i'm starting to get the picture a bit more.

Is DMU basically a diesel engine per car, whereas "Amtrak-style" is a locomotive pulling dummy cars, with the Amtrak version being less expensive, but less flexible?

[monsoon]

You are correct about DMUs. The Northern towns would prefer DMUs over a locomotive and trains for a number of reasons. Fortunately the decision on what will be on this line will not be left to just one person.

There is actually a domestic supplier of these things. Colorado Rail Car

[uptownliving]

Colorado is suppling part of the TTA cars...however this is what they will look like...

[uptownliving]

You are correct about DMUs.  The Northern towns would prefer DMUs over a locomotive and trains for a number of reasons.  Fortunately the decision on what will be on this line will not be left to just one person. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I hope they pick DMUs for the North line too...David was telling me the reason they were leaning towards Amtrak style was the cost...they are cheaper than DMUs...but they also take long to accelerate and slow down so the stops have to be farther apart than if you had a DMU.

[orulz]

You are correct about DMUs.  The Northern towns would prefer DMUs over a locomotive and trains for a number of reasons.  Fortunately the decision on what will be on this line will not be left to just one person. 

There is actually a domestic supplier of these things.  Colorado Rail Car

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

CRC's cars are not ready for public consumtion just yet. They've only recently begun trial service in Florida, with promising results, but so far only a prototype has been built. Of course the TTA design isn't complete yet either, but it's being built by a company who has a long track record of producing DMUs. I expect that they're just going to adapt one of their international designs to the American specifications.

From what I understand, the vehicles TTA ordered will be built by Rotem, a South Korean manufacturer, but the propulsion systems will be a variation of Colorado Railcar's design (a diesel/hydraulic unit based on a Detroit Diesel bus/truck engine, which takes commodity parts and is very easy to maintain.) Rotem, while ranked lower in technical categories on their design, undercut the next lowest bidder by 25 percent - and that is why TTA selected them as the supplier. Sumitomo, who had proposed a diesel version of the cars used on the South Shore line, came back and appealed the decision, countering with a better offer, but they still couldn't touch Rotem. TTA turned down their appeal, and awarded the contract to Rotem. There is no legal litigation involved in the TTA case.

SEPTA in Philidelphia, however, also awarded a (larger) contract to Rotem, but one of the other bidders decided to take their protest to the courts. That battle is still going on.

Amtrak is also looking at ordering some DMUs for use on shorter-haul lines. The benefits of DMUs include better fuel economy, less noise, more flexibility, and better performance. Using a 4200hp locomotive to pull a measly two coaches is a huge waste of fuel. Those locomotives are essentially freight locomotives as well, which means that they don't accellerate quickly at all. But when you're pulling 10 coaches, and only stopping every 10 miles or more, those issues become less important, and the advantage of only maintaining one, huge diesel engine for the whole train rather than one or more engine in every single car becomes clear.

Anyway, as I get further and further off subject... what I was trying to say is that I think Charlotte should have two seperate networks. There should be an urban, intracity transit system run by CATS, and in order to call it a SYSTEM they should only use one technology (either 100%LRT or 100%BRT. I don't care which, just PICK ONE.)

The intracity transit should be augmented by a commuter rail system, operated over longer distances at higher speeds with lower frequency on existing freight tracks. That could be done with either DMUs or a push-pull setup. Parallel corridors are just fine, because the systems serve completely different markets.

This mirrors the system found in many other cities. For example, in Washington DC, the intracity transit is WMATA's metro, and the commuter service is provided by MARC and VRE. In NYC, there's the MTA subway for intracity travel, and NJT, LIRR, and Metro North for commuter services. In Chicago, there's the CTA 'L' and Metra. Some of those systems are relatively new (Washington) and some grew organically over more than 100 years (NYC) but the systems work so well that Charlotte would do well to take a lesson from them.

[Mobuchu]

Since so much more info has come out over the past year, I bet if you started this poll over it would look much different. I think I voted for University, but would now go for streetcar(no longer circular) or North line.

[Creasy336]

I vote for the North Line...Alot of TOD has has been proposed for this corridor with more to come. It will also come be constructed the quickest. Also the North Line complements Charlotte's Gateway Station which will become a major part of uptown in the future.

[dubone]

Personally, I would vote for BOTH the North Line and the Phase I of the Streetcar line to go first. That was basically the CATS's plan, and I think that makes sense.

The North line is a no-brainer, so should definitely the next highest priority. But the streetcar is important for connecting the two rail stations, the 3 universities uptown, allowing for infill and redevelopment in Elizabeth and Plaza-Midwood, and improving operations on the most crowded bus line in the city.

[dubone]

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/14164964.htm

Now that the Feds are weighing cost/travel time saved as a factor, I bet the North line will be next. The overall project isn't that expensive, but considering the distance and the traffic for the commute from north Meck to downtown, this metric could be good for this project.

I'm not completely sure how the streetcar project would measure, as it probably doesn't have that much savings (if any) over driving from Plaza-Midwood to downtown.

The weightings and factors all seem to be setting the bar very high, though.

Almost certainly these things will only have an effect on the next few lines. I'd bet that the federal political pendulum will swing back towards the center in the next few elections, so that could mean an improved budgetary situation for transit. So our next batch of lines, which are hoping to be built 5-7 years from now could have a better chance of staying on track.

[atlrvr]

Ok....maybe this is too political of a question, but I'll ask. Does anyone know Rudy's stance on transit? Being that he was mayor of the city with the best transportation network in the country, I would think he would support all cities expanding transit....on the flip side, he is pretty conservative. Anyone know?

[Miesian Corners]

^I don't think he's big on the Feds giving money to cities for much of anything. He once said that (NYC) needs to stop looking to Albany and Washington to solve its problems. Of course, he spoke those words before the WTC attack, so his position might be different now.

One of the issues that has never sat right with me is how the Federal government sets policy for local government, yet often provides little means of financing said policies. Case in point is our region's air quality. We're told by the Feds that unless we clean up our air, the money for roads will stop rolling in. Trouble is, unless we can get additional funding, transit alternatives will never see the light of day.

[ChiefJoJo]

I voted North because I believe it is the most easily implementable project (existing rail corridor) and parallels a heavily congested hwy corridor in I77. SE will be a long, drawn out project to complete due to the tie in with the roadway project along Independence. NE may have issues with running in the median of Tryon St--we'll see how that works out. West, I think has the least demand in terms of ridership I would guess. Wilkinson Blvd works pretty well for the most part--the main advantage this line has is the airport access, but I don't think that will create enough ridership to move it ahead of the others.

Let me say that I believe the streetcar project will likely move forward to construction alongside one of the other corridors as well.

[stateman99]

I'd vote for the Southeast if they were putting in light rail, but i refuse to vote for rapid bus transit.

[skylinedrive]

For those of you who are watching and waiting to see which line will be built next, your wait is now over. The Center City Streetcar line will be the next one built and construction will start this summer.

Granted this construction will only occur on Elizabeth from Kings Drive to Hawthorne Avenue, but it is a start. Hopefully the feds will come through and construction on the rest of the line can begin in 2008.

It was good to see the "up boys" at this meeting too.

[Mobuchu]

Their putting the tracks in the road now because it will cost less since they plan on ripping the road up anyway, but I dont think that means they have the funding before the north line.

You should introduce yourself next time:)

[monsoon]

Their putting the tracks in the road now because it will cost less since they plan on ripping the road up anyway, but I dont think that means they have the funding before the north line.

You should introduce yourself next time:)

They don't. There will be no further federal funding decisions for transit (barring a political atomic bomb going off) until February 2007. Neither the North or the Streetcar system have funding approved by the feds or the state. (both are needed)

Since this poll was started its pretty clear now that the North line will be the next built. There is too much momemtum behind that line for it to be stopped to move up another line. They may try to build part of the street car system with the North, but only if it doesn't affect the North. The rest of the lines are too far off in the future to be concerned about.

[MZT]

Will the streetcar line will connect the Multimodal station with the Transit center? Or will people continue to use the Gold Rush to do this?

[dubone]

Will the streetcar line will connect the Multimodal station with the Transit center? Or will people continue to use the Gold Rush to do this?

Yes, the streetcar is intended to cover this route. Gold Rush would be shifted to another route if streetcar is built.

It seems to have following goals:

- Connect Gateway Station to Charlotte Transportation Center (LRT and Busses)

- Connect the 3 downtown colleges: JCSmith University, J&W University, CPCC

- Connect Biddleville/West End, Gateway, Elizabeth, and Plaza-Midwood to Uptown

- Build out Trade Street's and Elizabeth Ave's urban streetscape to improve development potential

- Distribute bus, light rail, and commuter rail passengers to major employers around downtown

- Replace or augment the two most used bus routes, Beatties Ford Rd and Central Ave

[kpryde4u]

a rail line straight to my front porch would be real nice... lol