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Which Rail Line Should Charlotte Build Next?


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Which Rail Line Should Charlotte Build Next?  

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  1. 1. Which Rail Line Should Charlotte Build Next?

    • University - Light Rail
      58
    • North - Commuter Rail Line
      35
    • South East - Bus Rapid Transit
      5
    • West - Bus Rapid Trasit
      5
    • East Streetcar Line
      14
    • Downtown Streetcar Circulator
      21
    • Commuter Rail to Rock Hill
      7
    • Other not planned (explain)
      2


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I think the Northeast line should be built next especially with the development already sproutting up in NoDa, plus the University Area is one of the fastest growing areas in the city, so there will be a lot of population to pontenially draw from.

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The north line will be built next. Charlotte needs the long-term support of the wealthy residents of the northern towns, to keep the MTC together and build the streetcars and other improvements that mostly benefit Charlotte.

Only the North line and the West line could possibly be built without Federal/State matching funds. The possibility of that happening is something looming large in the decision process.

If the MTC has been watching the decade long twist-in-the-wind of TTA (which they surely have) they should want to put forward a proposal with a fallback position to still ultimatley succeed in completion. The northern towns might plausibly agree to a bond package, if necessary, to help build the north line... Fat chance of that, on the other lines.

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I could get behind a bond package to build streetcar to the airport and commuter rail to LKN, assuming they'll struggle for federal support. (Note that the North line might be fine for federal funding if they can prove that TOD will get ridership up). The center city streetcar line is fairly solid for federal funds from what I've heard as it has high projected ridership and lower costs. The NE line could be built in increments over the coming decades. The SE line has the highest ridership projections of all the lines, and the major expenses (the transitway in the center of Independence and the bridge interchanges) will be covered outside of the transit budget.

My vote has been solidly for the North commuter line and the Trade to Central streetcar to go next simultaneously. They have a combined cost cheaper than the S line, and both are extremely important for the overall system.

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I could get behind a bond package to build streetcar to the airport and commuter rail to LKN, assuming they'll struggle for federal support. (Note that the North line might be fine for federal funding if they can prove that TOD will get ridership up). The center city streetcar line is fairly solid for federal funds from what I've heard as it has high projected ridership and lower costs. The NE line could be built in increments over the coming decades. The SE line has the highest ridership projections of all the lines, and the major expenses (the transitway in the center of Independence and the bridge interchanges) will be covered outside of the transit budget.

My vote has been solidly for the North commuter line and the Trade to Central streetcar to go next simultaneously. They have a combined cost cheaper than the S line, and both are extremely important for the overall system.

Well, my humble biased opinion is that lines should be built based on the populations they will serve (just like state highway funds.) The northeast line will serve a population in upwards of 191,000 (the est. population of University alone.) The North line (now that it will not extend to Mooresville/Statesville for now) will not even support 75% of that (and I'm well over estimating.) It would also serve UNC Charlotte which is often criticized for being so far from uptown living. University has the densest population in Charlotte and the reason why other towns wouldn't support a bond package would be because it would only run through Charlotte city limits period. I really wish they would consider putting a stop on the Meck side of Concord Mills' loop road. That would significantly increase ridership. Especially during the holiday season. I went to South Park with a friday on Thursday around 3 and left to come back at 6. My travel time would have been cut in half had we been able to catch an LRT (and yes I have done this in other cities for all the years I didn't live in Charlotte.)

Making the original line longer would increase ridership from people in the south too as they would be traveling further north, and 191k shoppers could catch the rail to the south park area and catch a bus to the mall.

I'm not skeptical about any of these lines, but I think it only makes sense to extend what you are already working on before creating a whole different set of lines that don't connect. I think it is a bad idea to use anything but LRT despite the cost because that means switching modes of transportation from LRT to Bus/Streetcar to CR to go from South Blvd to Lake Norman. People will pay for convenience. Commuter Rail is for towns across the state from each other, LRT is for short distance trips like around the same county. I know CR works in some cities, but I see it as an outdated method of transport compared to others.

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Well, my humble biased opinion is that lines should be built based on the populations they will serve (just like state highway funds.) The northeast line will serve a population in upwards of 191,000 (the est. population of University alone.) The North line (now that it will not extend to Mooresville/Statesville for now) will not even support 75% of that (and I'm well over estimating.)

Current state highway funding is not based on population. If it were, Charlotte would be getting a lot more money. In regards to population you should note the North Line will serve Derita, Harris Blvd, Huntersville, NorthLake, Cornelus, Davidson, and Mt. Mourne. (Lowes will have 12,000 commuters going to its facility each day) I would suspect that by the time this area is built out, with its much higher densities than University, which is basically the worst sprawl in the city, the North line will server a much larger population. Especially when you consider that it will be 25 miles long.

Personally I question the usefulness of building the University line past the Asian Mall. Despite the 2000 riders from UNCC the rest of the area is already too far gone with cul de sac development, big box retail, and I predict the ridership calculations won't support a cost effectiveness number that will allow it to be built beyond the Asian Mall stop.

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The north line will be built next. Charlotte needs the long-term support of the wealthy residents of the northern towns, to keep the MTC together and build the streetcars and other improvements that mostly benefit Charlotte.

Just a comment on this.

CATS studies have found that 25% of the residents that would use the North line, (based on census data) do not have access to automobile transportation. This is due to income, physical handicaps and age.

4 of the 10 stops will be in Charlotte so the North line will benefit Charlotte more than any other of the other towns on the line. Lets also not forget that Gateway Station, where the North Line will terminate, will be a significant addition to downtown Charlotte.

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Current state highway funding is not based on population. If it were, Charlotte would be getting a lot more money. In regards to population you should note the North Line will serve Derita, Harris Blvd, Huntersville, NorthLake, Cornelus, Davidson, and Mt. Mourne. (Lowes will have 12,000 commuters going to its facility each day) I would suspect that by the time this area is built out, with its much higher densities than University, which is basically the worst sprawl in the city, the North line will server a much larger population. Especially when you consider that it will be 25 miles long.

Personally I question the usefulness of building the University line past the Asian Mall. Despite the 2000 riders from UNCC the rest of the area is already too far gone with cul de sac development, big box retail, and I predict the ridership calculations won't support a cost effectiveness number that will allow it to be built beyond the Asian Mall stop.

I know, the way I had it written about population funding was confusing, I meant to say it as, "As highway funding should be also."

So, out of the 191,000 residents in Uni, only 2,000 will ride? I think 2k is actually a low projection for the 20k+ students alone. They need a way to get to and from uptown/south end without driving. It eliminates the need for a DD and taxis are too much trouble a lot times. And (not to bring up sydney again) but when I went to school in AU, students pretty much relied on bus, train/subway, and their own two feet to get anywhere and everywhere and the school I went to there was almost identical in size and distance to the CBD as UNCC. It will catch on much quicker in the younger population than you all think. We aren't as skeptical and narrow minded (not aiming that anybody, just a generalized statement.) Same as the arena, the idiots that are boycotting it are only hurting our city, not proving their point.

And no, the north is nowhere near as dense as University, that is a proven fact as of the 2006 study on University's economic impact on our area. As for culdesacs, are there no subdivisions in davidson, huntersville, or cornelius? I thought that was their main structure like most suburbs.

Oh, and for Lowes, how many of those workers live south of it? I would figure the majority of them would live north of county line to avoid meck taxes like so many other people in other counties.

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You are quoting 191K residents for an area that spans dozens of square miles surrounded by miles and miles of pedestrian unfriendly roads. It's unlikely even a small portion of this area will use the LRT. And some of this population includes people that would use stations on the North Line at Harris and Alexaderama.

In comparision, there are already 10,000 homes announced in Transit Oriented Developments around the stations of the North Commuter line. This is because of the very proactive and progressive planning that exists in Davidson, Cornelus and Huntersville. These towns long ago banned cul de sac development, requires sidewalks on all new developmen, doesn't allow snout houses and require other features that encourage the walkability of the area. Davidson has no subdivisions, you ought to go visit it. While there have been mistakes made in the area it is light years ahead of University in its sprawling auto orient development. And I know this first hand as I used to own a home in University.

This thread is an example of where one of the North stations will be located. It is very walkable and there is nothing like this in University. And this exists now.

Light rail, unlike commuter rail, is not designed to deliver commuters across town. It is there to encourage future density without the need for new roads. What is lacking in the University area is any kind of planning that would make this happen and hence I don't think the line will be supported past Sugar Creek.

BTW, given your earlier example of riding the LRT from University to South Park (even though its not going to SP) lets assume that you have to travel through 30 stations for that to happen. At the minimum response time of 7 minutes/station, your journey would take 210 minutes. Your trip would have taken longer than driving.

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BTW, given your earlier example of riding the LRT from University to South Park (even though its not going to SP) lets assume that you have to travel through 30 stations for that to happen. At the minimum response time of 7 minutes/station, your journey would take 210 minutes. Your trip would have taken longer than driving.

Maybe this is a fact about the CATS' LRT I have never heard of, but in the subway stations/LRT's I have been on in the past, per station is a minute and a half at very max. Commuter rail does take that long at each station (if not longer,) but not LRT. Also, there would not be 30 stations between University and the South Park area.

As for walkability, I couldn't agree more. University's is practically non-existent. What better to help begin to correct this problem than a pedestrian development spur like a LRT. You say that this many developments are planned for along the North line. That's nice. I'm glad that that many are not sprouting up in University, it is crowded enough as it is. 10k houses produce what? A population boost by 10k. Where does that leave the population? Still far behind the NE line's. Heck, let's consider NoDa along with University. You're looking at easily over 215k people (if not WAY more, I'm not familiar with the population figures of NoDa.) 10k homes will provide 20k more people that would potentially ride it (assuming children won't generally ride on a regular basis.) Those are developments built specifically for their location. Build the LRT onto campus, there goes the 20K+ advantage and ample secured parking is already provided. As of now, proposed stations in University alone have spurred up four pedestrian friendly shopping centers. One at Pavilion and Tryon (under construction,) two at MCC Rd and Tryon, and another on N Tryon north of WT Harris. As much as I would love to say University is walkable now, that is an obvious fault of poor planning. That's not to say a problem can't be fixed. South Park isn't exactly walkable either. In fact, I see more people walking around University (in places where there aren't even sidewalks) than I do in most of the sprawly areas of our fair city. The university is finally working with the city to make its block safer for students on all four sides. That's a step.

Yes, University is a vague term that some consider Northlake a part of. That annoys me. But, as of now, few existing residents live in NL. Yes, they are building a lot up there, but those future residents were not counted in the 191k. I feel Northlake will become its own area and I'm not sure why people would consider it otherwise now. It's in another corridor. I'm tired of people bashing on University. Like it or not, it's the home of a third of our city's population. No other area can say that or even come close. People aren't moving out of the area, they're still coming in droves. If there are problems with the streetscape, why not get it fixed rather than whine about it?

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^ I have to agree with what you are saying. We can't just write of the University Area. Not only do you have a large number of people and students living in the area, but you also have a large number of people who work at the URP. Although the area will probably never be truely as dense as Uptown, I think we could still see a high ridership on the line. Like for example, using CATS buses and shuttles to bus workers to the rail stations as well as creating greenways. Despite being pedestrian unfriendly, you'd be surprised the number of people, who actually ride their bikes and walk to work. This is in addition to adding more density around the stations like we see along parts of the South Corridor. To be fair to the University Area, you see the same problem along South Blvd and South Charlotte in general. A lot of the development is suburban and spreadout, but I think the light rail will do well (hopefully), because, you have the new urban developments along the line in addition to the suburban outlying areas that the line will draw riders from.

I'm somewhat skeptical about the North CR line. I think, it will have the population and density to support the line, but will people use it that much to get to Uptown? If it's like other CR trains that I know (mainly VRE and MARC), and it's only running like M-F or running trains every couple of hours, than I doubt it will see the same levels of ridership as the LRT and streetcar lines, despite having the TOD.

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Maybe this is a fact about the CATS' LRT I have never heard of, but in the subway stations/LRT's I have been on in the past, per station is a minute and a half at very max. Commuter rail does take that long at each station (if not longer,) but not LRT. Also, there would not be 30 stations between University and the South Park area.

Subways are almost always heavy rail. They have the speed and capacity to give 1-3 minute response times. We are not building heavy rail transit in Charlotte. We are building light rail and the Charlotte light rail line has a minimum response time of 7.5 minutes/station. In addition in the dowtown area the speed limits of the trains are but just 15mph. The Blue Line will have 27 stations on it (not quite 30) if they build it out completely. The response time is given here.

^ I have to agree with what you are saying. We can't just write of the University Area. Not only do you have a large number of people and students living in the area, but you also have a large number of people who work at the URP. ....

Well actually it is the North CR line that will have two stations in the URP area and one right near the huge Wachovia CIC and Meridian complexs (former IBM) There are more than 30,000 workers in this one location. Have you actually looked at the plans to see where the trains are going?

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^ Do you mean the Derita and WT-Harris stations? Yeah those two could potentially serve URP commuters, but that all depends on the timing and logistics of the buses and trains. CR doesn't run as frequently (at least in other cities) as LRT or heavy rail, so it's usually meant to serve commuters in more distant areas rather than inter-city transportation, unless CATS plans to try something else otherwise. Norfolk Southern could potentially limit the number of trains that operate on the track, if that corridor is busy with freight trains.? MARC is having problems like this, it can't expand the number of trains on certain routes, due to the fact that more trains could cause disruptions in freight traffic on the CSX lines and other cost issues. http://www.mtamaryland.com/services/marc/faq/

Not to put down CR or anything, it works great in other metropolitan areas, but I think for it to be successful (or any transit line, rather it be LRT, BRT, streetcar, or HRT) in Charlotte since the area is so spread out, you have to have buses and/or shuttles to get people from stations to their work or home, in addition to the transit oriented development around the station, IMHO.

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If they build the system as planned with full service, there will be 34-38 runs/day providing bi-directional service. It's going to support reverse commuting so while it's called commuter rail, it will be a bit different from commuter rail that you see in a number of places. These trains will exceed 60 mph which will allow them to make the entire run in less than 30 minutes. (plus there are only 10 stops)

In comparison, as I mentioned above, the LRT is fairly slow speed wise and it is unlikely that few people will take it to commute to URP. CATS has said that it will take 35 minutes to travel from Pineville to downtown. One can expect that it will take at least this long to travel from University to downtown. This means that a roundtrip down the entire blue line will take more than 4 hours! Compare that to the 1 hour on the CR even though it is a longer route. People are mistaking the LRT for HRT which it definately isnt. The LRT's main purpose is to allow people within walking distance of the line to travel along the line for day to day living.

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If what you say is true about the LRT, then I wish they would have invested in a subway style line through the downtown portion of the line.

While driving is always going to be faster, that's not really the idea behind the LRT in the first place. It's an alternative for people who do not drive or want to save money. Same as the bus line, people don't ride the bus just for fun. They ride it for the overall cost benefit. If you don't buy a car, that's 10k you're saving, plus insurance and gas. If you get a rider's pass, then it far outweighs the price of a car in both short term and long term. I know that isn't up for debate on here, I'm just making the point that people aren't riding it for its speed.

I could've driven to downtown Sydney from where I lived in 10 minutes or less, but I didn't have a car, so I rode the bus and/or LRT/Subway which takes about an hour.

Also, how is the North Line going to CIC? That's a long ways down harris from 77. I don't have time at the moment to look up the map, but I'd be surprised if the CR would service a handful of people from the URP. I'll have to check up on that one later. I assume you've done your research so I trust you.

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I don't think I ever said it was built for speed. I've always said the LRT it is being built to allow for more density without the addition of more automobiles. This means that it will be primarly used by people that live along the line and primarly by people that would ride the bus today. It is not a commuter rail system so don't expect it to be carrying lots of people to work as that is not its purpose, though no doubt that many living on the line will use it to get to work if they are fortunate enough to work somewhere that is within walking distance.

This is why it is called "Light Rail".

Unless the city of Charlotte makes very dramatic changes to the way it is handling growth in the area of the city north of Sugar Creek, you are not going to see the densities created which will justify the expense of building the line past there. They are not going to spend $350M+ just to pick up 2200 UNCC students. ($350M is my estimate to build the line past Sugar Creek and its a very conservative estimate). I just don't see any evidence this is happening. And it will never go into Cabarrus county as they are light years away from doing anything proactive to control growth.

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Also, how is the North Line going to CIC? That's a long ways down harris from 77. I don't have time at the moment to look up the map, but I'd be surprised if the CR would service a handful of people from the URP. I'll have to check up on that one later. I assume you've done your research so I trust you.

The station in Derita is near the CIC. CATS intends to run shuttles from the CIC to the Derita station.

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In comparison, as I mentioned above, the LRT is fairly slow speed wise and it is unlikely that few people will take it to commute to URP. CATS has said that it will take 35 minutes to travel from Pineville to downtown. One can expect that it will take at least this long to travel from University to downtown. This means that a roundtrip down the entire blue line will take more than 4 hours! Compare that to the 1 hour on the CR even though it is a longer route. People are mistaking the LRT for HRT which it definately isnt. The LRT's main purpose is to allow people within walking distance of the line to travel along the line for day to day living.

Whoa, 4, hrs, CATS should think of replanning the number of light rail stations along the NE line, we'll at least further out, past Sugar Creek. I think it will still be beneficial to extend the LRT to University Area,

(even with the two southern CR stations already serving parts of the area) for not just the University, but Concord and Cabarrus County commuters and have the ending station at I-485 primarily functioning as a Park-and-Ride station for people not wanting to drive into Uptown or either in the coming years considering a commuter rail option for Cabarrus Co. and points north.

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I think it will still be beneficial to extend the LRT to University Area, (even with the two southern CR stations already serving parts of the area) for not just the University, but Concord and Cabarrus County commuters and have the ending station at I-485 primarily functioning as a Park-and-Ride station for people not wanting to drive into Uptown or either in the coming years considering a commuter rail option for Cabarrus Co. and points north.

I didn't even think about that. Even though Cabarrus isn't all about the LRT right now, the NE corridor is the most populus out of the five. NoDa, UC, Concord, Kannapolis, Salisbury (areas of notable size) are all along the 85 corridor. I wouldn't want to ride for hours on end to get from Salisbury to uptown though. I doubt LRT will go that far in the next 25 years unless something big happens and David Murdock decides to fund it all the way to the new NC Research Campus. Heck, if Bruton Smith and him get talking enough, they may build that monorail he was so excited about. They're weird like that.

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Just to clarify, LRT would take ~2 hours round trip from Pineville/485 to Univ City/485 and back to Pineville. I'm not sure where 4 hours came from.

Also, that metric doesn't have much real world significance, as not many would ride round trip except a few nutty vagrants.

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Just to clarify, LRT would take ~2 hours round trip from Pineville/485 to Univ City/485 and back to Pineville. I'm not sure where 4 hours came from.

You are correct, my mistake. LOL However even a 2+ hour turn around over a 20 mile route means this isn't a system to be used by commuters. i.e. someone living in Pineville isn't likely to ride the train to get to a job in URP.

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^ About to say there for a second, 4hrs, lol, you'd probably be better off walking. 2 hours round trip (1 hr per trip) and 1 hr from each end to Uptown isn't too bad. It can take up to 45 to 1 hr on somedays (especially during rush hour) to get from Pineville to the UC, at least from my own experiences. One big trade off for the extra time, is the fact that you won't have to drive and maneuver through it, nor deal with the parking at the destination station, be it Uptown or the UC. :)

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Well the curious thing about it is that CATS says the response times on the trains is 7.5 minutes. Now assuming that a train will stop at every station that would say the 27 station trek would take 187 minutes or 3 hours. Something isn't adding up.

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Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, or maybe I'm missing something... but here's my understanding from reading various FAQs:

The 7.5 minute statistic is either the headway between trains at rush hour, or the average time somebody walking up to the station completely unaware of the schedule will have to wait at off-peak hours. It doesn't mean the train averages 7.5 minutes from one station to the next. Close to uptown, I expect it will take closer to 2 minutes from arrival at one station until arrival at the next - including dwell time. That's because of the close proximity of the stations to each other near uptown. Closer to 485, times may be closer to 4 or 5 minutes.

The total trip time from I-485 to uptown on the LRT is going to be 24 minutes. That's a number directly from CATS.

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