Which Rail Line Should Charlotte Build Next?

[AuLukey]

7.5 between trains makes a lot more sense. I remember reading that somewhere now. I knew there was no way trains would stay at the station for more than 2 minutes, if even that. Now this makes a lot more sense. 24 minutes from 485 to uptown actually rivals the time it takes to drive that distance (along tryon,) rush hour or not. Given you catch the train the second you walk in the station at least.

[monsoon]

ChiefJoJo, posted this elsewhere on UrbanPlanet but I thought I would reproduce it here because it is very relevant to this thread. It unfortunately confirms much of what I suspected about Federal funding for transit and as such, the immediate future does not look good for expansion of our rail system.

From ChiefJoJo date='Jun 12 2006,

I spoke with a person who is connected regarding transit. The writing is on the wall from the feds that there is almost no funding available for transit under the Bush Admin. FTA staff members have essentially said off the record that the Federal Govt has slashed funding and increased the red tape and hurdles for transit agencies to jump thru to reduce the # of fed-$-eligible transit projects and to provide the administration money for other projects it wishes to fund (Iraq? Katrina?). It confirms what monsoon has been saying and what's really been obvious from an observer's prospective. Other transit agencies and projects around the nation are feeling the effects as well. It might be as simple enough to say we shouldn't expect any new federal rail transit funding until we have a new administration in the White House on Jan 20, 2009--can't get here soon enough!!!

The individual said that CATS talks are very preliminary at the moment, but that it may be doable given the relatively "low" capital cost of the line, something TTA can't say. The interesting thing I heard is that although the current TIP shows state capital funding for all the rapid transit corridors in future FYs, there is no officially approved funding program at the state level for any other corridors other than the CATS South line and TTA's line. Only those two projects were officially approved for funding by the legislature and the NC Board of Transportation, so additional action would have to take place in order to secure funding for the N Corridor, or really any other line in the state going forward. There is also no guarantee that the state would pick up the 25% share without a Federal FFGA. This is very relevant to CATS and TTA regarding the public-private scenario mentioned above, as it would be in lieu of federal approval.

To sum up:

1. Bush is anti-transit, therefore FTA has virtually no money for rapid transit.

2. The state has only committed to funding two projects, CATS S line, and TTA's line.

3. There is no specific policy on whether the state would fund a transit project without a Fed FFGA.

[Jerseyman4]

I agree with Metro on behalf of the Bush Adminstration cutting off funds for alternative transportation projects. Even NJ is having issues with its federal public transit funds being slashed and thats a state that sees overcapacity on its trains & buses!

Back to the original topic, the last project that should get any attention is the line into the Fort Mill/Rock Hill area unless the state of South Carolina pays 100% of the project up to the NC state line and is in full cooperation of what NC wants north of the state line. The train lines that should be considered the most are the southeast line and the north line all because Mecklenburg County should come first before any of the neighboring counties. If you live, work and play in Mecklenburg, then Mecklenburgers deserve public transportation first.

[MZT]

If private developers and Lowe's are willing to chip in on the North line, that says a lot about community support. That should mean something to our state legislature even if the Feds are not interested.

But who knows. Legislators from rural districts would still prefer to send pork home, especially if the state budget is tight.

[monsoon]

It's really a difficult situation. I really like the idea of forgoing federal funding for the North line as it will mean it will be built faster assuming they can generate the funds to build it. The down side is the rest of the lines are going to be far off in the future due to the huge expense of building them.

Most likely within the next 10 years we might see the North line, the street car between Eastland and Rosa Parks and possibly a short expansion to the Blue line built.

[monsoon]

This item caught my eye about what is going to happen at with the MTC this summer.

As we all know the 2025 transit plan includes 5 transit corridors and a center city street car network. This plan was established and approved around 2002-2003. At this point the only line under construction is the South (Blue Line) light rail project. There are no schedules or firm plans for the remainder of the system. The biggest assumption for developing these plans were that funding would consist of 50% Federal, 25% State, and 25% Local. Sprialing costs and lack of federal funding threatens to derail this plan as the MTC is going to re-address the plan this summer in light of this.

As a result the MTC this summer will not only decide the schedule for building the rest of the system but will also decide which portions to build based on the likelyhood of federal funding or other funding. This could mean the 2025 plan will be radically changed from what we see now and/or put on permanent hold similar to what has happened in Raleigh.

[MZT]

The south east line is pretty much an all-or-nothing situation, and extremely expensive. It may be dead for the foreseeable future.

If so, the political calculus on the MTC will now boil down to "how much of the Northeast and West lines can we build, and when?" What dealmaking will take place around 2009 for the votes of Pineville, Matthews and Mint Hill... since they won't be getting mass transit?

[monsoon]

Pineville is getting the light rail line. They chose not to have a station in the town however. That was a big mistake on their part IMO, but they may decide there is no reason to fund the rest of the system as their portion is alread being built. There is a financial reason for this. A city may withdraw from the MTC but they are committed to continue alloting their share of the transit tax to pay for what has already been built.

[nyxmike]

In order to avoid having to use federal funding, can't they build the Northeast line by extending little by little? Since it is just an extension of the South line, I don't see why they cant add on to it slowly? Even if it doesn't go to the University right away, I think it's really important to atleast connect it to NoDa as soon as possible.

[monsoon]

That is certainly a possibility and I am sure that it is one they will consider. but at $60M/mile, it is going to be very slow going with no federal funding.

[RugbyPike#11]

That is certainly a possibility and I am sure that it is one they will consider. but at $60M/mile, it is going to be very slow going with no federal funding.

If the north rail line ends up being privately funded, do you all think there's any chance that something similar could happen for the commuter train to Rock Hill? There are basically two proposals for commuter train that are being analyzed in Rock Hill/Fort Mill/York County's ongoing study (along with several options for LRT, BRT).

1) A commuter train that would run from Rock Hill to the end of the South LRT line.

2) A commuter train would run from Rock Hill to the Gateway station. This line would run parallel to the LRT line for rougly 3 miles (give or take) but would turn off to the northwest before it hits Tyvola. It would then follow existing heavy rail tracks which basically run alongside Billy Graham. The tracks then turn back east and run alongside Wilkinson before they turn northeast to run along S. Graham and connect with the North Line.

I certainly see why you all would want to see all of the NC sections built first, but if this line can be built with SC assistance, why not go ahead and build it if it doesn't divert resources from the other lines? Given the second line's proximity to the airport, I wouldn't be surprised if an airport station could somehow be worked into the plan.

I have to admit, I'm getting way ahead of myself; as far as I'm aware, RH/FM/YC are still probably at least a couple of months away from announcing their official proposal based on the multiple options being studied (LRT, BRT, commuter train). Having lived in Rock Hill and being a Winthrop alum, I do realize I hold a certain bias so please remember that before chastizing me

[atlrvr]

2) A commuter train would run from Rock Hill to the Gateway station. This line would run parallel to the LRT line for rougly 3 miles (give or take) but would turn off to the northwest before it hits Tyvola. It would then follow existing heavy rail tracks which basically run alongside Billy Graham. The tracks then turn back east and run alongside Wilkinson before they turn northeast to run along S. Graham and connect with the North Line.

This is certainly what I prefer. There only needs to be one station between the southern LRT terminus and Gateway Station, which would be adjacent to the old coliseum site.....they could serve the offices there with a community shutte bus that could easily be time to be waiting at the station when the trains arrive.

I don't see the need to make an airport station. Given the relatively few people who would take commuter rail to the airport and wouldn't be willing to transfer at Gateway Station to the streetcar, I just don't think it would justify the expense. Additionally, a future commuter rail line to Gaston County could easily have a stop at the airport with minimal investment, and there are also plans to have the SE High-Speed Rail to have a stop at the airport.....myabe. With all these options originating at Gateway Station, I think that they will more than adequately meet the demand.

I do have a question about the York Co. portion of the line. Would they like Rock Hill station be along the textile corridor so that it could interface with the proposed RH streetcar?

[monsoon]

I am with atlrvr on this one. A commuter train from Rock Hill to the South LRT station just won't fly as it will take way too long to get downtown by that method. It will have to be to Gateway station. Also I've learned they are considering putting the North VMF downtown because it could be used to service the carriages going to Rock Hill. This option would not be possible with scenario #1.

The Rock Hill line is going to take significant financial assistance from SC or it won't be built. It will be interesting to see if the existing MTC would agree to fund the portion that would be in NC on a schedule that would occur before 2025. If they did that, then some portion of the current plan would have to be pushed out unless SC shows up with a lot of money (re agree to pay for most of it including the part in NC) because it is not in the current plan.

I could see where a connection between the airport and the Gateway station could work if the trains traveled frequently enough. Long term transit plans call for the highspeed rail to have a stop at Gateway and the airport, but maybe they could build the airport station a little earlier.

If all of this is built, the major downer in the whole thing is that we will have a light rail system with about 42 stations and a commuter rail system that connects 3 counties and two states, that are not directly connected together.

[RugbyPike#11]

I do have a question about the York Co. portion of the line. Would they like Rock Hill station be along the textile corridor so that it could interface with the proposed RH streetcar?

I've always assumed that the commuter train station would sit between historic downtown Rock Hill and the textile corridor but there is no official word on that subject. That is where the existing heavy rail tracks already go and Rock Hill is dedicated to revitilizing their downtown and textile corridor so that would certainly make the most sense.

[49er]

So the recommendations as the what tech is used on the Southeast corridor are to be released in July. From what I have seen in meetings, it looks like BRT. This may have been a foregone conclusion, but BRT rated very highly by FTA standards and will probably received the highest ranking possible in terms of ridership and cost effectiveness. I believe the total cost for this 12 mile line is estimated at $290 mil for BRT versus $565 mil for LRT. Ridership estimates are 16k daily riders for BRT

[Creasy336]

If option 2 was explored I would imagine it would have a transfer to the I-485 light rail station. Like mentioned above if commuter rail was ever implemented between Charlotte and Gastonia the station a station at the airport would be easy (hopefully connecting to a people mover to take passengers to the terminals).

[dubone]

I attended the West open house, and those tracks between Charlotte and Gastonia are exceedingly busy, and would be very expensive to add transit to.

However, the SouthEast High Speed Rail corridor seems to be including a station at the airport, so interstate rail transfers will be possible, but not really as convenient intracity transit.

[atlrvr]

I'm envisioning something along the lines of the Newark Airport station which serves the MTA's commuter rail, NJTransit and Amtrak. They are scheduled to be complementary, and a ticket from Newark to Manhattan's Penn Station cost the same for whichever train takes you.

[monsoon]

I'm envisioning something along the lines of the Newark Airport station which serves the MTA's commuter rail, NJTransit and Amtrak. They are scheduled to be complementary, and a ticket from Newark to Manhattan's Penn Station cost the same for whichever train takes you.

Except of course in Charlotte's case, that makes Gateway Station redundant except for the buses.

[A2]

Quick question...

If Charlotte continues down the path of bad quality air days, will it compromise Federal funding for Trains, or does that just pertian to Road Funding?

A2

[dubone]

Trains too.

Quick question...

If Charlotte continues down the path of bad quality air days, will it compromise Federal funding for Trains, or does that just pertian to Road Funding?

A2

[A2]

Trains too.

But A2 likes trains, D

A2

[monsoon]

It would seem the one result of throwing out the rules that built the first LRT is that pork barrel politics has re-entered transportation funding in this country. Senator Orrin Hatch has managed to convince the Bush Adminstration to agree to 80% fund a new commuter rail system in Utah to the tune of $480M. (Total $540M) SLC already has a fairly expensive LRT. This is for a state that that has less than 2.7M people and for a city whose population is about 187,000 and losing population.

I guess anything is possible.

[ChiefJoJo]

If Charlotte continues down the path of bad quality air days, will it compromise Federal funding for Trains, or does that just pertian to Road Funding?

click here for a quick overview

EPA monitors AQ, and along with FHWA, FTA, review the region's Long Rang Transportation Plans each time it's redone, so that the plan complys with future AQ levels--basically so that plans show the AQ is either not getting worse. If a plan violates the AQ standard, all federal money for transportation projects stops. In 1999, Atlanta had 69 days that violated the AQ std! This happened to Atlanta from 1998 to 2000, and as you can imagine, it can cause major headaches for a region, including a major lawsuit by several environmental organizations. Anyway, terrible AQ caused Atlanta to wake up and begin a number of smart growth initiatives, which most of us would agree is a good thing. I think Charlotte planners probably saw what was happening in ATL, and realized land use/trans/AQ had better change course for Charlotte's future.

[monsoon]

In case any of you are interested in the Southeast transit corridor, there are going to be two public meetings to discuss the future direction of this system and to gather input for the final recommendation to the MTC which will decide the options this fall.

Those meetings are:

• Aug. 2, 7 to 9 p.m., Matthews Town Hall.

• Aug. 3, 7 to 9 p.m., Eastland Mall Activity Room.

This is your chance to comment on whether the line should use LRT or BRT and where it will terminate. There is an option to scuttle the plan to run this line past I-485 because of the cost of having to build a tunnel under the highway.