Charlotte Bobcats Arena

[49er]

I havent done the research, but I would imagine local residents typically only visit an aquarium once maybe twice a year. With the arena, locals can attend b.b. games, the circus, concerts, graduations, etc. It really is more bang for your taxpayer buck and is a true multi purpose facility.

The retail space along Trade should alleviate the deadspace discussion. However, the designers should have incorporated retail around most of the perimeter of the building.

The arena and the Westin are both poor examples of City backed projects with almost no street level retail.

I really cannot understand why an arena located at the cities main light rail platform is such a bad idea.

[nowensone]

^^ True, and parking garages without a bottom layer of businesses are much deader than the arena which is somewhat of a "wonder", and in the case of the Bobcats Arena is transparent, open and inviting. Calling the arena deadspace is debatable, but even assuming for the sake of argument that it often is deadspace is not really a negative, there are going to be deadspaces anyway, this is not a bad form of it.

[Mobuchu]

A vibrant downtown is about different choices to different people, at different times. Any building, no matter what it is, is a deadspace at some time of the day, or some time of the week. An aquarium might draw more people during the middle of the day, but would be nothing but a deadspace at night. An arena is the opposite. Condo buildings are deadspace at times. Gov. buildings are deadspace at times. The key is to get all these different attractions in the same area so they each draw people in around the clock. Add mixed uses to blocks and you get an even greater window of people frequenting the area.

Soon retail will be added along Trade and that will help bring more people there during the day. I would visit an aquarium maybe once, but have been to the arena more times then I can count. And everyone who has been to the arena and visits uptown on a regular basis on this board seems to think it has made a difference.....experience rules.

[NCN8ive]

Plus, I think visiting this arena is a much better experience than the previous one. I can't say that it's any one thing, but mostly I think I personally enjoy it more because it's downtown and it feels like it's part of something larger. The old coliseum was just stuck out there by itself. I guess some of that feeling is also created by the design of the building itself. Hands down this is the nicest arena I've been to in the US (not that I've been to that many, but several). All in all, I'm really glad it's there...I love it.

Now, I wouldn't be opposed to an Aquarium downtown either. I certainly would rather have the arena, but I don't look at it as an either/or. My understanding is that the president or CEO (not sure) of Home Depot donated the money for that Aquarium though? So, all we need to do is find someone with deeeeep pockets and talk them into donating an Aquarium.

Honestly, the more I think about it, adding an Aquarium makes more sense now than maybe at any other time. With the NHoF, the arena, increased bookings at the Convention Center, the coming Cultural Facilities and a revamped Discovery Place, the Children's Library...an Aquarium might just add another piece to the critical mass that's building. Charlotte could really begin to see some tourism dollars at the next level (sorry for such a cheesy expression).

And yeah, I realize talking about an Aquarium is off the original topic, but it was brought up by someone else.

[atlrvr]

I went to the arena twice for events.....once to see U2 and once to watch the Bobcats......I took the trolley to the U2 concert, and it was packed with drunk people of all ages having a great time....laughing socializing, staggering. It was probably the most authentic "big city experiences" that I ever had in Charlotte. I walked to the Bobcats game after eating at the Dilworth Neighborhood Grille before hand. Again, great time, the streets were flooded with people both before and after, and there was lots of random "high-fives" and celebratory shouting (the Bobcats won) that is a nice contrast to say, the 4th of July celebrations.

So what if it's used for only 100 events or so a year, its a tremendous "civic builder" from my experience and for a city hurting in the "identity" department, it appears to me to help foster a bond between a diverse set of Charlotteans.

But....the arena is just one part of a complex social/urban dynamic. It will never be for everyone. That's why also supporting arts facilities, recreation facilities, parks, etc are critical too.

[redjeep77]

I went to the arena twice for events.....once to see U2 and once to watch the Bobcats......I took the trolley to the U2 concert, and it was packed with drunk people of all ages having a great time....laughing socializing, staggering. It was probably the most authentic "big city experiences" that I ever had in Charlotte. I walked to the Bobcats game after eating at the Dilworth Neighborhood Grille before hand. Again, great time, the streets were flooded with people both before and after, and there was lots of random "high-fives" and celebratory shouting (the Bobcats won) that is a nice contrast to say, the 4th of July celebrations.

So what if it's used for only 100 events or so a year, its a tremendous "civic builder" from my experience and for a city hurting in the "identity" department, it appears to me to help foster a bond between a diverse set of Charlotteans.

But....the arena is just one part of a complex social/urban dynamic. It will never be for everyone. That's why also supporting arts facilities, recreation facilities, parks, etc are critical too.

[Raintree21]

I thought they had street level retail planned for the arena they just never have done it. What's holding them up? They could at least put some restaurants/fast food (not McDonalds) there that would do well since it's directly across from a captive audience at the transit center. The only thing in the immediate area is the Burger King inside the transit center. Of course, Bob Johnson probably wouldn't allow that cause that would compete with his $5 pieces of pizza inside.

You wanna see the streets flooded with people? Come to Speed Street (inbetween the races). Over 400,000 people will be downtown in 3 day's time

[atlrvr]

The first restaurant (Bellacino's pizza) is currently in the middle of getting thier building permit. Basking Robbins/Dunkin Donuts will apply soon. I forgot who the other tenant is supposed to be, but apparantly both Matt's Chicago Dog and Red's BBQ have backed out.

As far as speed street....done it. Something about paying $7 for the worst Bratwurst of my life and the sight of hairy shirtless guys and women with their belly's squeezing out between their halter top and jorts makes it something I can do without. That said, I'm all for Speed Street, as it does bring out the crowds and gives the city character and a tourist draw.

[krazeeboi]

EpiCenter is going to be a draw all by itself, but you already know that on nights when an event is occurring at the arena, it's going to be bonkers on that side of town. And if the Brevard corridor plan comes into fruition, it will be even better. That section of E. Trade will come to resemble Columbus, OH's Arena District within a matter of a few years.

[Justadude]

In my eyes, the $300 million was about more than just the arena. It was about anchoring the light rail line, attracting the Epicentre project, creating synergy for the College and Trade St. bars, legitimizing the Brevard St. stroll district, and giving Levine another reason to do something with all that damn First Ward land.

I'm not a fan of the NBA at all and would've just as soon not built the arena with the Bobcats in mind, but its overall effect on Uptown has been overwhelmingly positive. Not even the conservative talking heads have managed to sway public opinion otherwise now that the arena has opened.

[monsoon]

In my eyes, the $300 million was about more than just the arena. It was about anchoring the light rail line, attracting the Epicentre project, creating synergy for the College and Trade St. bars, legitimizing the Brevard St. stroll district, and giving Levine another reason to do something with all that damn First Ward land.

.....

[Nostyle]

I don't see how building a $300M single use facility, and giving it to Bob Johnson, who completely controls all events and takes all the money from those events even non-NBA ones, does any of that. Seems to me this is pushing it when it comes to justifying the construction of this place. In addition there is every indication those places would have been built regardless of the Bobcats Arena or not and no proof at all things would be different if they had not built it. As it is, when the Arena is closed its a huge dead area in the center of town as evidenced by the complete lack of activity on the sidewalks around it. This has all been covered before in this thread.

[Charlotte_native]

Wouldn't an aquarium, when it is closed and since it would be on a large site, be considered dead space as well? I think anything, when it isn't open, would be dead space by the definitions I've seen above. The Convention Center is dead space when it is closed.

Oh well, everyone is entrenched in their opinions so I'd say this argument has been well covered and the arena is here so it won't matter from an impact standpoint anyway.

[MZT]

I feel like the Acquirium "thing" is another city fad that would not have done much to distinguish Charlotte. Not that I dislike acquariums. I went to the Long Beach acquarium. Once. And then I could say, I'd seen it.... I think most vistors are like that.

[Nostyle]

I don't mind the idea of an aquarium. I wouldn't personally consider it a fad either.

Look, back on point about the arena, I can understand if you think the city overpaid for it. I can understand if you think the city made a bad move that went against a referendum. I can understand if you think it's crazy to spend $300 million in public funds to build an arena for a billionaire. But what I cannot understand is how you can discount the positive impact it has had on Uptown, by the people it brings and by the surface lots it has replaced. When you peel away all the red tape and soap opera story lines that surround it, the arena is still an asset to Uptown.

[Justadude]

I like aquariums a lot, but I agree that it's probably a fad. Not so long ago there were only a handful of worthwhile aquariums on the east coast. Now you've got excellent ones in every other state, and I'm sure that a few years down the road all the major cities are going to have one. Much like pro sports, that's going to saturate the market and make each one less successful. Personally I will not be driving to Chattanooga's aqarium -- even though it is amazing -- now that Atlanta has one. I'm sure I'll not go to Atlanta if one is ever built in Columbia. And so forth.

[monsoon]

^Maybe you don't understand because in your last two posts that you have completely demonstrated that you have not listened to a thing I have said. I will repeat it again even though you just faulted me for doing so. I have never said the arena didn't bring people to events.

I said the $300 million represented a lost opportunity to do something much better for the community than to build a single use facility that only basically appeals to the NBA fan. 15,000 people, and they have not even been making that average, is not even close to 1% of the the people who live in this area, it's been demonstrated time & time again the money spent in these places would have otherwise been spent on other attractions in the city, and they do little to spur economic developments. Sure there has been some people that spent money in downtown but for $300M they could have put something there which would have appealed to much larger range of people and brought many many more benefits to the city than an arena designed specifically for the NBA. Finally in your CIAA reference, they came here only after the city paid them a $1 million to do so. Without that money they would have gone elsewhere and again that shows how little benefit the building of this arena really brings to Charlotte.

Finally if the majority of people here disagree with me, that is their right, but it doesn't invalidate anything I have said.

[Nostyle]

I've been to the Atlanta one. It was built with private funds, was it not? Anyways, it was nice, but it was overcrowded. I remember thinking that when people ask me about the Georgia Aquarium the first thing I'll think to say is that it's too crowded. I think a local aquarium would be a worthwhile venture, but it doesn't have to be of the same scope as the Georgia Aquarium. It just has to be enough of a draw to pull in local people, whereas the Georgia Aquarium looks to draw in people from everywhere. And hey, if Charlotte's aquarium could steal even a sliver of the (over)crowd from the Georgia Aquarium, more power to Charlotte.

I also felt that part of Downtown Atlanta is very disjointed and I found it to be disappointing. The CNN/Georgia Dome/Philips Arena/Centennial Park/Georgia Aquarium area felt like a bunch of independent projects that don't relate well to eachother, rather than well-connected urban projects that blend well with the urban fabric.

[Lady Celeste]

*tiptoeing in to the conversation*

To add a log to Metro.m's fire....

I would like to add that he has a point with the aquarium. Many are under the impression that after the actual aquarium closes, that the facility closes. That is in fact not true. At least once a month there is a major event (major as in publicly adverstised) held at the Grand Ballroom. Many of Atlanta's residents in the entertainment and/or athletic field use the facilities for galas. Even families can rent the facility for only $25,000...the last time I checked...so it doesn't close just because the actual fish are given a break from the crowds. As a matter of fact, this year's Father Daughter Dance event will be has been moved from the Grand Hyatt Ballroom in Buckhead to the GA Aquarium. This is a pretty large event. There are countless other events...that would not find the Philips Arena suitable...that are held at the aquarium's ballroom. There are also conference rooms located withing the facilities that will have entrances facing Ivan Allen Blvd. They are currently being retrofitted. While these event may not all equal 15,000 per event, it only adds to the bang per buck of the GA Aquarium.

[BUILDIT]

ummm I disagree with the idea that the arena only appeals to nba fans but ok

what would you have put there instead, i think an nba arena solidifies us as a bigger city then if we had an aquarium... lots of places have aquariums, woods hole has an aquarium, have you ever heard of it?

I dont know what else you would have put there and another park, ehh charlottes parks suck to be honest, I am hoping they will get better starting with the 3rd ward

[AuLukey]

Ok, so forgive me for bashing anything at all on here, but having an aquarium will draw a lot of people uptown yes. However, the median age of this group would probably be 12. Very few older people take time out on their own to go to zoos and aquariums. I'm not saying that NOBODY does, I'm saying that the vast majority of these millions of people that went to the aquarium in Atlanta were on field trips or with their family. That said, how many of those field trips are going to eat at our many restaurants and bars uptown? How many of those kids are visiting the retail in the streets of downtown Atlanta? I can't imagine that would be conducive to the safety of the children on those trips. Sure, a lot of families and retirees will eat uptown so that does bring in business, but not on the scale that any concert, graduation, hockey, or basketball game brings in. Even saying that events at the arena only happen every third night (ish,) on those nights, businesses could easily see more than three times that same rate.

Another problem we have is, as of right now, we have nothing else to see uptown outside of the occasional exhibit at Discovery Place or Imaginon (because let's be honest, few people going to an aquarium will go to the new cultural facilities.) The NHOF will help us bring one attraction in, having an aquarium would be a second. Compare that to Atlanta. I don't even live in Atlanta and I can come up with five. Thus, having one facility in uptown drawing a large crowd of children that will inevitably go back to school and not spend money outside maybe the aquarium food court and vending machines, will not bring a huge level of street activity uptown unless you consider mobs of children piling into school buses on Trade St a good thing.

And Lady Celeste, not to belittle what you said, but we are already going to have a big'ol ballroom uptown thanks to our friends at the Convention Center and NHOF. Thus, having another uptown would not really bring in that much more overall.

Thus, while having an aquarium or any similar attraction would be a great thing for the city, sports facilities are much more of a catalyst as they bring in large groups of people all at once.

Also the success of Atlanta's aquarium in the first year can be attributed to it being brand new which we all know brings in a crowd every time. I imagine that the NHOF will bring in a much larger crowd its first few months than any month afterward. As Charlotte grows and we start to become a more tourist oriented urban core, then we can consider the differences between an aquarium and an arena. But as of right now, due to the nearly complete lack of tourism uptown, I can't imagine an aquarium bringing more to uptown than an arena. Maybe in the future, and I do hope we are able to attract larger museums and aquariums as that does bring a lot to a city. But their real benefit will be seen when we have many, not just one.

[monsoon]

Ok, so forgive me for bashing anything at all on here, but having an aquarium will draw a lot of people uptown yes. However, the median age of this group would probably be 12. Very few older people take time out on their own to go to zoos and aquariums. .....

[AuLukey]

Well, the city spent the money, public willing or not. What can we do about it now? Nothing, it's there. I'm happy it's there, for good or bad.

And mommies and daddies don't normally go on field trips. I did say that I knew that older people did go, but they are a small proportion compared to the elementary and middle school ages. For every bus load of children you probably have about ten adults (not on the field trip themselves.) 3 to 1. If 25% of the people that go to the aquarium are old enough to go to the restaurants and bars in Charlotte, let's assume that one out of three do. So we're down to about 8.3% of the total number of people going to the aquarium actually spend money uptown. So 8.3% of 3 Million (number of visitors to the aquarium in ATL its first year.) That's just shy of 250,000 people spending money uptown every year that would have otherwise not been there. That really isn't that bad.

Ok, now let's assume that the arena brings in about 5,000 people per day (avg from 15,000 every three days.) Assuming 75% of people at arena events are of the same age as my earlier qualifier, if one out of every three of that 75% spends money uptown (not including beer and food inside the arena) you have 456,250 people spending money uptown a year that would have otherwise not been there. One out of every three eligible people attending a Bobcats event or concert is a very low estimate, but I'm averaging in the hockey games and graduations as well. Thus, even though the arena is only partially utilized once every three days, having about 15,000 every three nights brings in about 200k more paying diners a year. Even considering an average of 10,000 people every three days, it's still more money coming in than an aquarium provides. Now these numbers are not nearly factual but I did my best trying to stay unbiased on the demographics. But aquariums do bring in a lot more children than the arena does, that is definitely fact so I based the percentages off of that.

On the other hand, I believe this city has a great opportunity with where the NHOF is being built. There is plenty of underdeveloped land around that area that could be utilized for more tourism oriented facilities such as aquariums and museums that could feed off of each other and the convention center. People spending time walking between attractions are much more apt to spend money between said attractions. Thus, having multiple things for people to visit uptown brings a great diversity to our town. So, considering the NHOF and cultural facilities are already "under construction," maybe now would be the better time to be considering museums and an aquarium in that area rather than when the arena was built when an aquarium would have been all alone (outside of when DP has big exhibits.)

Therefore, I don't believe that an aquarium would have been appropriate for the city at the time when the arena was constructed. Its presence is much more warranted now that we will have more to do uptown in two or three years. An aquarium would have been too out of place back then and would not have brought as much to the city as it will in 2010. Maybe now we should push for more facilities like this and forget that the arena was built without our permission.

[monsoon]

Your mathematical analysis is based on opinion and assumptions where you draw your conclusions. (I fact you say that you assume) Why don't you look up the actual attendance numbers for the place and use those numbers.

[JerseyBoy]

The arena is much more practical as it can hold a wide array of events rather than the aquarium that can only hold fish and minors (adults too). I believe AussieLuke is right on how aquariums draw in more crowds of school children then adults. Sure, I know many friends of mine who wanted to take time off of work for a vacation and drive down to Atlanta with their family to see the aquarium because they had heard raving reviews about it and wanted to see the sea-life. But, realistically how many times are you going to vacation there just to see the same old fish unless they bring in a new endangered-species or something of that magnitude? I would love that idea of an aquarium metro, but I think the arena (despite whatever cost) serves more purposes that appeal to a wider range of people and has been more of a benefit to Uptown then most will realize.