Haydon Burns Library

[vicupstate]

Here is my two cents...

* That fact that a building is neglected does not mean it is of no value. The St. James building was all boarded up but look at it now. It is an icon of city government and a beautiful and functional (as well as inexpensive) building. Just because a building falls into the hands of a property owner that doesn't give a rip, doesn't make it unworthy of saving.

* The Laura Place trio buildings are diamonds in the rough, that should be saved even if it is costly to do so. If every building in Charleston had been torn down because of poor condition at one time or another, there wouldn't be one historic building there. Not only that but those three building collectively are only one corner of the block. The Burns library is 75-80% of it's block. The libray is only three floors while the Bisbee and Florida Life building are something like 11 stories each. Rehabbing the Laura Place trio would contribute much more density per foot of land than the library. They also complement their surroundings (the Barnett, Greenleaf buildings, etc) very well and help to give Laura street an appealling blend of old and new (BofA tower,etc) architecture. Losing three buildings for the new library was enough. Long live the Laura Place trio.

* While several posts said that the Burns library should be saved because it was modern, and representative of it's time, no one really said that they liked it. Some architecture pass the "test of time" test and some don't. I have to put the Burns library in the later category. Riverplace Tower came just two years after the Burns library and IMO is a stunning and beautiful building, especially at night. It always has high occupancy, so I must not be the only one that feels that way.

* The RPF process should be followed to completion, period. Who knows what somebody might come up with for that site. Dare I hope, that someone with deep poclkets will propose a package deal that would also do something with that horrible parking garage in the block immediately South?

* The CSX facelift is a disappointment, but it really did need something. The out of date color scheme and fading from the sun had to be addressed. Have you noticed how pictures of the Northbank skyline almost never include that building.

[merlin]

I agree the fact that a building is neglected doesn't mean it should be torn down. I actually have a design for a mixed use facility which incorporates all three buildings as well as building a new tower on the rest of that 1/2 block. I would llike to see them stay there... as Bob Broward has stated many times, in no other metro city will you find a two story building on a major corner lot like the bank. However, the likelihood of them staying, giving their condition , is almost non-existent.

But just because a building is a Klutho building shouldn't make it sacred either. Klutho essentially rebuilt Jax after the fire, and a majority of buildings are worth saving, but so are other architect's buildings. Yes, I like the library. I think it is a great period peice and one in which, with a little thought and ingenuity can overcome it's shortcomings of approachability from the street and parking. To combat a comment in another post, there windows on the upper floor, they are behind the screen wall which helps cool the facade and shade the books from direct sunlight.

The square footage of the Bisbee and Florida life is not that much. both buildings are about two armspans wide. I have been up in both towers and know the extent at which they are damaged. And to bring them up to cade with even the stairs and elevator stuff will severly eat into the sqaure footage of each floor. And to minimize the square footage affected, they both would probably need fire escapes - whihc side of the building would you put it on? Each tower has no real back side. And the bank... whoa nelly, that thing is in serious need. The basement is essentially a lake, all of the plater work has fallen, the skylight glazing is non-existnent, almost all of the window frames are rusting out, I can go on. However, I think that both towers would make some pretty amazing living space. Each tenant could have a floor. The bank would make one hell of a restaurant with it's wrap around balcony. It would also make one tremendous night club. Can you imagine, looking down from the nearby office space at night to see the everchanging lightscape that would be created against the skylight?

The riverplace tower is a great peice of architecture with it's exposed structure. However, to compare the tower to a 3 story building is a little far stretched. Also the contexts are so different as well.

Well, I have rambled enough.

[bobliocatt]

Interesting analysis of the Laura Trio, please keep rambling. I've never been in any of the three buildings, but they do look very similar to the New Florida Hotel, a larger 9 story, 1920's era building in downtown Lakeland. Inside, it too, looked like it was on the verge of collapsing. In fact, a part of the roof did cave in.

Initially (back in 2001), because it was considered an eyesore that was to expensive to renovate, the city wanted to destroy the hotel and replace it with a park. Luckily there was a large public outcry that resulted in the city sending out RFPs for its redevelopment. Now its in the last construction stages of becoming an 80 unit loft building with a restaurant at street level.

Hopefully, the Laura Trio can end up being a success as well. I'd assume new fire escapes and elevators would have to be a part of a new building wrapping them to the north and east, thus saving the little square footage per floor in the Brisbee and Florida Life.

If its determined that they're beyond renovation, maybe, at least, their front facades can be saved and implemented in a new mixed-use development on that site.

[vicupstate]

The square footage of the Bisbee and Florida life is not that much.  both buildings are about two armspans wide.  I have been up in both towers and know the extent at which they are damaged.  And to bring them up to cade with even the stairs and elevator stuff will severly eat into the sqaure footage of each floor.  And to minimize the square footage affected, they both would probably need fire escapes - whihc side of the building would you put it on?  Each tower has no real back side.  And the bank... whoa nelly, that thing is in serious need.  The basement is essentially a lake, all of the plater work has fallen, the skylight glazing is non-existnent, almost all of the window frames are rusting out,  I can go on.  However, I think that both towers would make some pretty amazing living space.  Each tenant could have a floor.  The bank would make one hell of a restaurant with it's wrap around balcony.  It would also make one tremendous night club.  Can you imagine, looking down from the nearby office space at night to see the everchanging lightscape that would be created against the skylight? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the inside scoop, that's one of the best parts of the forum. My comments...

I have seen NO info anywhere on the square footage of these buildings. It would be nice to have something to work with. The square footage of the buildings is limited due to there narrowness, but again, it's a lot of square footage for the small amount of land they take up. A loft can be less than 600 sq. ft. As deep as these buildings are, couldn't you get a least two per floor?

I don't understand why the elevator/stairs can't go in the back of the Bisbee and FL Life buildings. The lot behind them is vacant. Can you explain further? Plus, the North side of Fl Life is a vacant lot too. Could an add-on stairs and elevator go there?

As for cost, both the 11E and Carlington buildings cost more to rehab than the resulting properties are supposedly worth. So it is not unprecedented to do the same here. Unless the cost is truly very exorbitant, these building should be saved. They could not be replicated once lost. Great cities do difficult things. Ten years after the work is done(or less), no one will remember the cost, but everyone will recognize the beauty of these buildings many decades from now.

If city hall really wants to do it, it will find the money. It always does. If the city can spend millions on horse barns, we ought to be able to find the money for this.

[merlin]

The stairs and elevators could go on the sides or in the back, I think. It's just a matter of architecturally what do you want to see. The stairs inside the two, if memory serves me are winders. The florida code does not allow winders, not to mention that the rise to run of the staris exceeds the current code. Also, depending on the depth of the building there may be a required two means of egress, depending. I don;t doubt that when a city puts its money where it's mouth is things happen, that is one of the major problems I have with the current administration. Peyton talks a good game, let's just hope he can put dollar to doughnuts and pony up.

It has been a while since I was in them. I do have the plans for all three of the buildings though. I had done another design for this lot back when the city was looking a new downtown library. I proposed to turn the two towers into stacks and the bank into the reading room, circulars and checkout desk. Can you imagine sitting in a space like that reading the journal or some other peice of literature?

[TheUrbanCore]

I don;t doubt that when a city puts its money where it's mouth is things happen, that is one of the major problems I have with the current administration.  Peyton talks a good game, let's just hope he can  put dollar to doughnuts and pony up. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We do need some leadership downtown. Its pretty anemic and reactionary. What exactly has been done lately? What projects are the DDA and JEDC excited about?

Jacksonville...where we're going start reading our contracts...

[vicupstate]

We do need some leadership downtown. Its pretty anemic and reactionary. What exactly has been done lately? What projects are the DDA and JEDC excited about?

Jacksonville...where we're going start reading our contracts...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Peyton is coming up on 18 months in office. His maximum term is 96 months, if he is re-elected. Downtown has floundered so far in his administration. Hopefully the bond issue to buy the Haverty/YMCA and Ed Ball buildings is a sign of better things to come.

Something tells me that he does have plans for downtown, but is keeping them close to the vest. At least that is my hope. It would be nice to see a new project come out of the ground that he approved.

[crazy cuban]

These are all good points that have been made about both the Haydon-Burns and the Laura Street Trio. And i agree that we have come to the conclusion that if the city puts its money where its mouth is, things will get done. Suddenly i get a vision, it was called "The Shipyards"... where the city put 36 mil into an empty piece of land and got back an empty piece of land. So sometimes throwing money at a problem isn't always the best resolution.

some points made:

Laura Street Trio square footage versus library>>> if you count the empty lots on either side and add multiple floors, yes you will get more s.f., but if comes down to the buildings themselves, no go. and there is no way that the library is 80% of the block, last time i looked 11E and its garage where on that block too.

preserving the facade of the bisbee and FN buildings seems like a unique task, no doubt that it can be done>>> but there goes an easy 1-2 mil. yes, the 11e and carlington renovations cost more than the worth of thr property, and guess who paid for it>>> Jax tax payers.

as far as looks... through the years you learn that aesthetics is a no win arguement because it is based on opinion. some find the clean and modern lines truly beautiful, while others want tradition and history... is it education? is it culture? no answer>> the library itself is in need of repair and renovation due to being a 40 yr old building. given the right vision and design, the building could also be a landmark for this city to be proud of >>> and that is what is missing in the comments>>> VISION! Imagine the library lit up like the river place tower>>> new glass and screens??? it is the visionary mindset, that from nothing we will create something great!>>> that is what i see at the library.

now wasn't this post about putting Willy Wonka's Chocolate Carnival there??? as someone i kew once said; "there is no good or bad architecture, but that's bad!">>> no further comments, your honor.

thanks

[vicupstate]

These are all good points that have been made about both the Haydon-Burns and the Laura Street Trio.

[wolfdawg54]

I personally like the idea of Peterbrooke going into the Hayden Burns library is awesome. It will give the city something new in downtown. Who knows what will happen but it could be really neat. I envision something like FAO Scwartz in NYC but with a lot less people. This really could be interesting.

[bobliocatt]

Architect of old main library wants it preserved

Taylor Hardwick's 1960s-era design has fans, but city won't give preference to a developer who won't tear it down.

By DAVID BAUERLEIN

The Times-Union

At 79 years old, Taylor Hardwick's hands no longer have the youthful suppleness they did when he put pen to paper as one of Jacksonville's go-to architects.

He has lived long enough to see some of his designs go full cycle from imagination to blueprint to construction to demolition.

In a chilly Monday morning ceremony, Hardwick joined others to reminisce about one of the buildings headed toward the wrecking ball. The 1661 Riverside Avenue Medical Building, which opened in 1957, will make way for construction of upscale condominiums in the Five Points area.

But whatever melancholy Hardwick felt about the building's impending demise, he already was turning his attention to the possible demolition of another building he designed in his architectural glory years -- the city's main library.

"It's been an icon and a landmark in downtown for 40 years," Hardwick said. "My building does not pretend to be designed in any year other than the year it was designed. It was designed for the 1960s and that's what makes it an icon."

Not everyone is a fan of that era's architecture. Downtown Development Authority Executive Director Al Battle has said that people seem to have a love-hate opinion of the main library.

The city is building a new, bigger main library on Hemming Plaza that is scheduled to open in the spring. At about the same time, the Downtown Development Authority will field offers from developers interested in buying the current library's property on Ocean Street, said Jean Moyer, spokeswoman for the city agency.

The evaluation of proposals will be based on criteria of economic impact and downtown development goals, Moyer said. There won't be any preference for proposals that would keep the building and renovate it for private business, as opposed to tearing down the library and building anew on the site.

"They're going to look at everything," Moyer said.

Fans of Hardwick's style have started a Web site that asks City Hall to choose a developer who will re-use the four-story building, not demolish it. The Web site features highlights of Hardwick's designs from 1956 to 1965, including Friendship Fountains Park in downtown and the 1661 Riverside Avenue Medical Building.

The medical building used to be neighbors with Riverside Hospital. But the hospital was torn down and the property became the site for a Publix shopping center. Midland Development Corp. bought the medical building and the company will start preparing it for demolition next week. Midland has pre-sold about 65 percent of the 90 condominiums, which are priced at $270,000 to $600,000, said Tripp Gulliford, a principal with Midland.

But before knocking the walls of the medical building down, Midland Development set up the Monday tribute to Hardwick.

"Love or hate Taylor's designs, you have to say they are landmarks around town," Gulliford said.

david.bauerleinjacksonville.com, (904) 359-4581

This story can be found on Jacksonville.com at http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stor..._17499615.shtml.

[bobliocatt]

here's the website for saving the Haydon Burns Library

www.taylorhardwick.com/

[vicupstate]

Comments on Taylor Hardwick website...

** Kudos for doing a website. If the Laura Street Trio becomes threatened, which I expect, I certainly hope the Jax Historical Society or someone will do likewise. If so, I hope the media gives it the same amount of ink.

** The School for the Deaf and Blind is my favorite.

** The bank branch in Murray Hill looks good in the photo, I will have to check it out in person.

** Given what has happened downtown since the first RFP, I think donating the site to anyone should be out of the question. A lower than market price might be reasonable, if truly affordable housing is offered.

** The Vestcor proposal is my preference, but I hope the units would be at least market priced.

[Urban_Legend]

I'm not too fond of that style of architecture. The old Friendship Fountain park looked wacky! But I do like that office building on Riverside, near the art museum. Look at this:

Wow, what....refurbishment? It basically looks the same, and the "sidewalk cafe" isn't even on the sidewalk.

[wolfdawg54]

I was expecting that the facade of the building and the structure to be changed. That is disappointing. They are just changing the paneling on the side. Maybe if the change the exterior parts, it will look better. I am not a fan though.

[crazy cuban]

Alright, so it seems that a true visionary is not one of the posters. ok, does sidewalk seating really ahve to be on the sidewalk?? have we ever heard of something called "patio seating". did anyone see the pictures on Taylor's website of the night images of the building, the use of light and shadow. the transparency of the building through the fins??? i know that these aren't usually terms that we use for architetcure in Jacksonville, but here was an example of something new and exciting... looking at Taylor's website and the use of the terms like "gone" and "mutilated"... you quickly realize that this is someone who took great pride in his work and would like to see his legacy out last him. don't we all want to be remembered after we exit the planet stage left.

again i am dismayed by the lack of insight into the work of architecture in this city, how it is not considered an "artform". it seems that the sentiment is that if it isn't something that i have seen before and something that can be deduced to the term 'pretty'>> then it is UGLY! is seems so hard to convince people that even the early architects and artists were renegades>> when Klutho came to Jacksonville he was a disciple of Wright and was designing things completely against the grain of what the populace thought was acceptable. Michelangelo was avant-garde!! All modernists have had to deal with these naysayers, to the point that at the height of the modernist movement, people believed that modern buildings would cause women to miscarry!!???

in the end even if the library is demolished (and a TAX-PAYER subsidixed Vestcor project is put in its place), we should honor Taylor Hardwick as someone willing to face the odds and be a MODERNIST architect in Jacksonville>>> kind of like being a christian in Roman times....

no more from me... to much frustration with the whole issue!!!

p.s. the school for the deaf and blind should be demolished>>> looks like the strip shopping center down the road???

[merlin]

KUDOS TO CUBAN. I would like ot add that the fins currently hold a shading device which allows ambient light into the books stacks as well as provide a space for air circulation between the glazing and the outermost skin. Like it or not, the Hayden Burns is, has been, and will hopefully continue to be an icon of the times when our downtown was a thriving downtown - day and night.

I saw in a post earlier that someone liked the reskinning of the CSX building. This is another building that is a great austere peice of it's time. Replacing the mosaic tile with the dark tinted glass destroyed the integrity of that facade. Now that building looks just like the so many others nearby.

As far as for those who do not see architects as artists - I would like to remind them that education used to consist of architecture, and most artist and artisans of the Renaissance where trained as both an artist and an architect - Brunelleschi anyone?

New stucco and poor glazing colors doesn't necessarily make something better or "pretty". Architecture is much like art and deserves it's just appreciation. Many people, even if the art is not to their taste, appreciate it as "art". This somehow does not carry over to architecture. I see buildings all the time that I don't necessarily like, but still appreciate it.

"a great epoch has begun. There exists a new spirit." - Le Corbusie

Never underestimate the power of ELEVEN SQUARED!

[wolfdawg54]

Yes, I was the one who liked the facade on the CSX building because it brings a different look to the city. it is kind of neat and the glass looks good in my opinion. As for the architect, I think that he is very daring. I am glad that he took that chance but I just am not a fan of the building's look. I am looking to become an architect and I know that architecture is a very difficult field.

[Urban_Legend]

^I agree. While the building may offer a window to architecture past, it's just not physically attractive, IMO. It sticks out like a sore thumb in downtown Jacksonville, because downtown Jacksonville is full of buildings from the 20's to the 40's. For some reason, that building never really...blended well. Not that downtown should be one bland area of similar architecture.

And aesthetics aside, restoring a 3-4 story building on that site just doesn't seem as wise as building a tasteful 15 story tower.

[scongro]

As much as we want to save something that shows off archiecture from the 1960's, it doesn't make sense. Nothing against Taylor Hardwick, or any architect from the 1950's & 60's, but the architecture (and buildings in general) were just not built to stand the test of time.

For example, let's compare the St. James Building and the Current Library. The St. James building features so much detail and so many little accents. Outside of the small green and yellow tiles on the library, the building features none of this.

Another example is Springfield. Why do people want to live in Springfield? Look at the architecture of the homes; they are beautiful. That is why we have a company (SRG Homes and Neighborhoods) that is building houses that are replicas to the homes of the 20's. Does anyone know of a company that builds replica homes of the 50's?

[FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER]

They should make something more productive in the realm of commercial or business type entity and not Willie Wonka's sugar chocolate melt in your mouth and not in your hands.

Our leaders are so narrow minded and focused behind themselves and not in front of themselves. Whatever happens to this building should be in the vain of its history and how it can complement the renaissance and growth explosion of downtown Jacksonville.

FLORIDA SKYRISE

[wolfdawg54]

Scongro, you are right. That is the point that I value as well because most people I talk to claim that the library's design is hideous. Also, Skyrise, Peterbrooke is productive because it will be transformed into offices and they are an important company for Jacksonville. The only problem that I have is that the building will not be changed. I wanted a taller tower as well but we don't always get what we want.

[merlin]

As much as we want to save something that shows off archiecture from the 1960's, it doesn't make sense.  Nothing against Taylor Hardwick, or any architect from the 1950's & 60's, but the architecture (and buildings in general) were just not built to stand the test of time.

For example, let's compare the St. James Building and the Current Library.  The St. James building features so much detail and so many little accents.  Outside of the small green and yellow tiles on the library, the building features none of this. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would like to throw another example on the table to fuel the arguement. What about Charles Eames and the case study houses of the Sarasota School - from the 50's. These are are truely visonary houses and architects.

As far as the St. James building, it's apples and oranges to the Haydon Burns. The buildings were, at their onset, different programmatic functions and built at times when construction and engineering practices were profoundly different. Yes the St. James has intricate details and plaster work - all of which was restored, not too long ago, by Bob Broward - a strict follower of Wright, look at his personal home in Arlington if you don;t beleive me.

And the new Stern Library, let's not even open that debate. Architecturally it will be a nice Po.-Mo. piece to compliment the "Good-ol'-Boy" mentallity that has driven this city for so many years. If this city want to be a true downtown and true urban environment that thrives and has the ability to maintain itself, the powers that be must begin to think outside somewhat outside of the box and to the future, not at what has been done before and gotten by in the years past. The Hayden Burns was a result of envelope pushing architecture for Jacksonville and why it is a key monument in the history of downtown.

Take a look at the new addition to Baptist Hospital on the Southbank at the end of prudential drive. Kudos to Cannon Design for establishing a precedent along the riverfront for a progressive piece of architecture. This building will undoubtably be a signature piece for Baptist Healthcare. This is the kind of envelope pushing insurgence this city needs.

I have already said enough....

Behold the power of Eleven Squared.

[wolfdawg54]

I would like to throw another example on the table to fuel the arguement.  What about Charles Eames and the case study houses of the Sarasota School - from the 50's.  These are are truely visonary houses and architects. 

As far as the St. James building, it's apples and oranges to the Haydon Burns.  The buildings were, at their onset, different programmatic functions and built at times when construction and engineering practices were profoundly different.  Yes the St. James has intricate details and plaster work - all of which was restored, not too long ago, by Bob Broward - a strict follower of Wright, look at his personal home in Arlington if you don;t beleive me. 

And the new Stern Library, let's not even open that debate.  Architecturally it will be a nice Po.-Mo. piece to compliment the "Good-ol'-Boy" mentallity that has driven this city for so many years.  If this city want to be a true downtown and true urban environment that thrives and has the ability to maintain itself, the powers that be must begin to think outside somewhat outside of the box and to the future, not at what has been done before and gotten by in the years past.  The Hayden Burns was a result of envelope pushing architecture for Jacksonville and why it is a key monument in the history of downtown.

Take a look at the new addition to Baptist Hospital on the Southbank at the end of prudential drive.  Kudos to Cannon Design for establishing a precedent along the riverfront for a progressive piece of architecture.  This building will undoubtably be a signature piece for Baptist Healthcare.  This is the kind of envelope pushing insurgence this city needs. 

I have already said enough....

Behold the power of Eleven Squared.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok, but my point is that not all 50's architecture is bad. There are neat buildings from that era that I do like. However, I do not like the Haydon-Burns and the CSX building looks good with a change. I will agree with you that the Baptist Hospital addition is awesome.

[Captain Obvious]

I'm a bit ambivalent about this library situation. I don't mind if someone rehabs it, nor will I shed a tear if it is replaced with something denser. Personally, I always thought that preserving the "fin" facade around the base of a new high-rise would be a tolerable compromise between preservation and revitalization. But regardless, that option doesn't seem to be on the table.

However, I am not ambivalent about some of the garbage being spewed by that Taylor Hardwick website. First of all, many of Hardwick's buildings replaced beautiful architectural treasures, and Hardwick didn't mind one darn bit when his designs were actively weakening the urban fabric of Jacksonville. (Remember, the very philosophical soul of modernist architecture like Hardwick's is inherently anti-urban, and the direct precursor to strip-mall and big-box design.) Hardwick is shedding nothing but crocodile tears as far as I'm concerned.

Furthermore, the three "options" listed on the website are utterly false. Those were indeed three options, but from a canceled RFP process that never even got beyond a concept phase. Using them is pointless and deceptive. We don't know if the new RFP will yield new high-rise proposals (indeed even from vestcor) that will pay for the property. Nor do we know if the preservation proposals are organized enough and financially viable enough to pass muster.

Also, just look at some of the projects they hold to high esteem on that site! Wolfson highschool? The place looks and feels (and functions by design) like a prison. Kudos to Hardwick for making thousands of students learn in an unpleasant environment for decades. Or look at the old Friendship Fountain park design. The website arrogantly calls the site "mutilated," though I have NEVER heard a single non-architect complain about the new non-modernist park. In fact, the only thing people tend to complain about is that leftover concrete spiral thing from Hardwick's design!! Is there anyone on these boards who would argue against the notion that the park is better now than it was before?

To put it very bluntly, I don't mind preserving modernist architecture, especially when it is particularly interesting or unique. If the Burns library is rehabbed instead of making way for a great skyscraper, I can live with it. However, that should not give anyone license to gloss over the reality that, on the whole, "modernism" was a highly destructive and shortsighted movement. For every Burns Library or FDIC building, there were thousands of housing projects, strip malls, and drive throughs.