Triangle Regional Transit

[JunktionFET]

Yeah I really like the thought those small towns put into Eastrans. They also saw it as a way to increase interest in downtown by encouraging new development around their central train stations.

Check around in the thread and you'll see a map of Wake County's long term transportation plan, as orulz pointed out. If you look a little further back you'll also find links to the Eastrans report (a PDF file) showing all the projections and cost estimates.

[AmericanUrbanDesigner]

Sure do. It was a very resourceful report, and some planning organization integrated it into their long-range transportation plan for the Triangle region.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's right. I think Mark/Mike Cirelo (sp?) in Knightdale started it for that town's comprehensive plan?

[ChiefJoJo]

OK I got this idea and posted it in the Eastrans thread...

I'd like to see a streetcar system like Portland's streetcar (or something similar) incorporated along Glenwood Avenue and perhaps Six Forks/Wake Forest Rd. They could run along both of the existing corridors and connect Crabtree, Five Pts, and Glenwood South from the northwest, along with N. Hills, and the Six Forks/WF Rd "node" and back DT from the north. These would really tie in some big commercial centers in N and NW Raleigh and complement the TTA system by bringing many more riders into the Raleigh City Center.

Thoughts?

[orulz]

OK I got this idea and posted it in the Eastrans thread...

I'd like to see a streetcar system like Portland's streetcar (or something similar) incorporated along Glenwood Avenue and perhaps Six Forks/Wake Forest Rd. They could run along both of the existing corridors and connect Crabtree, Five Pts, and Glenwood South from the northwest, along with N. Hills, and the Six Forks/WF Rd "node" and back DT from the north. These would really tie in some big commercial centers in N and NW Raleigh and complement the TTA system by bringing many more riders into the Raleigh City Center. 

Thoughts?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree that streetcars would be nice to have in some places, but you have to remember that they have plenty of drawbacks as well. Where there's no spare ROW to go around, you have to build a line that runs in mixed traffic, which is slow and makes the lanes dangerous for two-wheeled vehicles like motorcycles, scooters, and bicycles. The other option is a seperated ROW in the median or on the curb, which means losing either two lanes of traffic or on-street parking. Or perhaps a single-track streetcar line could work too, with island platforms and two tracks at certain strategically placed stations allowing cars to pass each other.

I'd really like to see a streetcar route through Cameron Village as well. Perhaps the Crabtree Valey route could be modified so that it turns left on Peace St from Glenwood, jogs over to Cameron Ct, right on Oberlin Rd, and then left back onto Glenwood. Of course that would end up skipping Five Points, but I think access to Cameron Village and Oberlin Court is more important. Hopefully more mixed-use development along the Glenwood corridor would follow suit.

It's hard to envision a streetcar on a road like Wake Forest/Six Forks. While it would be nice to have streetcars on Person or Blount on the east side of downtown, there are just too many strip malls, car dealerships, and warehouses on Wake Forest between Capital and the Beltline for it to work. You might consider an alternate route along Glenwood to St. Mary's/Lassiter Mill instead.

Then again, St. Mary's might be too hilly and narrow for streetcars. All the dealerships and warehouses on Wake Forest give it at least some potential for mixed use redevelopment, which would be relatively difficult in the established neighborhoods along St. Mary's.

[JunktionFET]

As we've seen in other cities, the addition of some kind of light fixed guideway transit can really act as a catalyst for great development, if implemented correctly of course. Look at the system in Portland, Tacoma, Charlotte, etc.

I do like the idea of a Glenwood streetcar, but not one that is exclusively mixed with traffic--it needs to have its own restricted ROW for the wide open stretches, otherwise it becomes a hassle for passengers and other drivers. I'm sure Glenwood sports enough space in the median or on the shoulders to support some tracks.

It would be nice to somehow connect the Crabtree Valley area to Glenwood South and downtown. Glenwood was once a trolley route in Raleigh, and one of the old Trolley Shelters can be seen at Harvey St near Five Points. So as a matter of principle, it would carry some significance to people if such a historic route was reestablished.

But it is hard for me to project how Hayes Barton residents would respond to such a line--A lot of whiners live around there and I'm sure there would be a lot of irrational opposition. On the same note, the area is growing in trendiness and I'm sure such people would be very happy to have that kind of transit.

The Cameron Village route is certainly promising too. Perhaps it could be incorporated by some kind of sub-loop off the Glenwood line, splitting off at Five Points on Fairview (I think that's the name of the street), taking a left down Oberlin, sliding past Cameron Village, then swinging a left on Hillsborough and back to downtown.

That way Hillsborough is included in the "buzz", but no additional space is needed in the already-cramped area in front of the NCSU campus. At the same time, the section of Hillsborough east of Oberlin can benefit from the route directly.

I don't know--there are a lot of ways to do it and each one has advantages and disadvantages. The simplest solution would be to have multiple straight lines along Glenwood, Peace, and Hillsborough, but that wouldn't be feasible for a long time I'm sure.

Despite the problems with space, I really like the idea of a line along Hillsborough, perhaps as far as Gorman St (that corridor is begging for redevelopment).

[JunktionFET]

While watching the NCAA game at a friend's house in Chapel Hill, I noticed a copy of Cary Magazine on the coffee table. I had no idea there was such a publication. It apparently caters to the Cary, Morrisville, Apex, Holly Springs bunch and though most of the articles were ho-hum, one caught my attention... it was an article on the downtown development vision for Morrisville. I was impressed with what I read.

For those who do not know, Morrisville is a small community which is situated between RTP, Cary, and the airport. Morrisville seems to be effectively land locked by Cary and the airport, so denser development seems to be the only way to increase their tax base.

All literature on the TTA rail system seems indicate that Morriville will not get a stop on the eventual rail line. But apparently the idea has been studied by Morrisville in their transportation plan. Here is a very rough sketch of a possible TTA rail stop in Morrisville, whcih I assume would be implemented in the future.

The parallel street is Crabtree Crossing, and the perpendicular street over towards the right side is Morrisville Parkway. I know this area well, and this is smack in the middle of an apartment and townhome development. The area depicted in the drawing is nothing but an empty field at this point. This would be a great place for a stop.

This is a completely different location from the proposed "Northwest Cary" stop (one of two stops in Cary). Speaking of which, according to the Cary town planner I spoke with, a mixed-use development is planned around the northwest Cary stop. And of course, the downtown Cary stop is zoned similarly. I'm glad that Cary is embracing TOD for its stops, hopefully it will serve as a good example to Morrisville if build their station.

[orulz]

Something not mentioned in the Morrisville transportation plan is that TTA is going to construct a bridge so that Morrisville Parkway will go over the freight and TTA tracks. This is a recent development (~September 2004). I don't know the specifics but it seems that the Morrisville town council is being unbelievably 'nimby'ist and hostile towards TTA. They demand a grade crossing for their "signature" parkway, at no expense to the town, and then tell TTA "You can't stop here." Their reasons? Nobody's ever going to use it, but the traffic generated by the station would put too much strain on nearby roads!

The additional cost incurred for this grade separation (at least a couple million since they have to realign a significant portion of Morrisville Parkway) is one the reasons that TTA had to scale back phase 1 of the rail system. With the North Raleigh segment being delayed and the Morrisville station cancelled, a good chunk of TTA's park-and-ride and TOD potential has been lost. I wonder if there's anything else Morrisville could do to sabotage TTA's efforts? Maybe they cout hire a lobbyist to fight against TTA in congress!

[JunktionFET]

Morrisville is certainly not the pinnacle of non-nimbyism... in fact the article I read in Cary Magazine really surprised (and impressed) me, especially considering all the smack talk I've done in regards to the place in the past Aside from the development ideas, the article speaks of "future TTA rail service", etc, and almost looks forward to it--this was coming from the town's planners.

I was aware of their desire to grade separate the Morrisville-Carpenter Rd crossing, and the case they make for it actually makes a lot of sense--they cite increased passenger rail service from NCDOT, Amtrak and SEHSR, and of course the 15-30 minute frequency of TTA trains, as well as increased freight traffic. The tracks cross right smack at the intersection with NC54, and rush hour there is already a mess even where there is no train rolling through.

However, I was not aware of their concerns for the Morrisville Pkwy crossing. Ideally it really should be separated, as it is an increasingly busy route, and one of Morrisville's few primary roads. That crossing is in pretty lousy shape--the pavement is severely ridged and crossing the tracks is very rough in a car or on a bike.

In fact, since Morrisville Pkwy climbs a pretty steep grade there on the west side of the tracks, grading the road bed down and making the tracks pass over the road would make a lot of sense.

I believe the town should at least agree to some kind of fund matching deal if they haven't already, where they pay some of their own money to fix these intersections, and have other agencies cover the rest.

[orulz]

I was aware of their desire to grade separate the Morrisville-Carpenter Rd crossing, and the case they make for it actually makes a lot of sense--they cite increased passenger rail service from NCDOT, Amtrak and SEHSR, and of course the 15-30 minute frequency of TTA trains, as well as increased freight traffic. The tracks cross right smack at the intersection with NC54, and rush hour there is already a mess even where there is no train rolling through.

Yeah, that never made sense to me. Morrisville Carpenter road has a bridge over the nearly unused CSX tracks just a few miles to the west of there, but it crosses the busy NS tracks at grade. Go figure.

However, I was not aware of their concerns for the Morrisville Pkwy crossing. Ideally it really should be separated, as it is an increasingly busy route, and one of Morrisville's few primary roads. That crossing is in pretty lousy shape--the pavement is severely ridged and crossing the tracks is very rough in a car or on a bike. In fact, since Morrisville Pkwy climbs a pretty steep grade there on the west side of the tracks, grading the road bed down and making the tracks pass over the road would make a lot of sense.

Now that I think about it I'm not quite sure whether it will be an overpass or an underpass. At any rate, they would reroute Morrisville Parkway for about a quarter mile, straightening a curve in the process and crossing the railroad at an entirely different place. Construction was scheduled to happen over 2006-2007 under TTA's schedlue calling for service to begin in 2008. Now I can't help but think that the schedule will be at least delayed, so if TTA happens, look for the crossing to go away sometime around 2007.

I am definitely aware that this is a substandard crossing. It happens to be the on the most direct/safest bicycle route from Raleigh to Chapel Hill, so I've taken it a couple of times, and my rear end has never thanked me for it. According to this article, NCDOT is currently reconstructing Morrisville Parkway, while this article says that Norfolk Southern will be coming through replacing ties and improving crossings between Mebane and Raleigh this May. I imagine that between these two projects, the Morrisville Parkway crossing will get at least a bit better.

I believe the town should at least agree to some kind of fund matching deal if they haven't already, where they pay some of their own money to fix these intersections, and have other agencies cover the rest.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They may be doing that to some degree, but Morrisville doesn't exactly have a lot of money to throw around for that kind of work.

[JunktionFET]

Yeah, that never made sense to me. Morrisville Carpenter road has a bridge over the nearly unused CSX tracks just a few miles to the west of there, but it crosses the busy NS tracks at grade. Go figure.

Oh check this out... that line is down to ONE train per day now. It had like two or three but Triangle Brick on NC55 closed which pretty much shutdown the bulk of the traffic. There is talk of that one train being eliminated as well. This is the line that Cary planners spoke of as a possible light transit corridor in the next 10-15 years.

CSX is weird with their lines. Cary wants to build one or two grade crossings over the tracks, and CSX likes to treat the whole thing as one corridor instead of just the segment necessary to build the crossing--even with this highly underused line.

[orulz]

Not 100% related, but this could have an effect on Eastrans:

New Bern Rail Traffic Expected to Increase[New Bern Sun Journal]

This article says that traffic formerly routed over the Raleigh-Wilson-Greenville line will now be rerouted over the NCRR from Raleigh-Selma-New Bern. Perhaps this will make it easier to initiate Eastrans's Raleigh-Wilson (or even Raleigh-Greenville) commuter rail service.

Here's hopin'!

[JunktionFET]

This article says that traffic formerly routed over the Raleigh-Wilson-Greenville line will now be rerouted over the NCRR from Raleigh-Selma-New Bern. Perhaps this will make it easier to initiate Eastrans's Raleigh-Wilson (or even Raleigh-Greenville) commuter rail service.

Here's hopin'!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great news! A while back AmericanUrbanDesigner hinted something like would happen here. Let's hope for the best!

[AmericanUrbanDesigner]

Keeping my fingers crossed...but not confident that Triangle leaders really ever "got" it (Eastrans) which is why I"m in Charlotte! In any case, I hope things are changing!!!!

[orulz]

To NorffCarolina and anyone else interested:

I just dug up a "juicy" 17mb PDF file containing the Feasibility Study for the NC54/I-40 corridor fixed guideway project linking Chapel Hill to the Triangle Metro Center.

I wish I could track down a PDF of the MIS for the 15-501 corridor as it's referenced a lot in the 54/40 study.

Anyway, Send me a PM if you want in on the fun

[orulz]

Some commentary:

The 54/40 study is fairly old (2002) but it's still pretty much relevant today. They basically come right out and say that regional rail utilizing the same FRA-compliant vehicles as the Raleigh-Durham line is impractical, which is a bit of a disappointment. They also mention that it would be beneficial to choose the same technology as the 15-501 fixed guideway corridor. That points to BRT on both.

On their webpage, TTA mentions Carrboro as a potiential future destination for Regional Rail, presumably because of the State University Railroad. Rather than strictly following the current alignment, they'd probably build a cut-off from Duke to I-40 between 15/501 and Erwin Road, and then follow I-40 to the Airport Rd exit. There's still plently of undeveloped land in the area to make ROW acquisition easier, but I can't imagine that it'll stay that way for long. The advantage of using the railroad alignment is that a congiguous ROW already exists in the most difficult section: namely, DT Carboro and DT Chapel Hill. The alignment basically takes you straight to the classroom buildings at UNC, about two or three blocks south of Franklin Street.

If that alignment were used, and regional rail selected instead of BRT on 15-501, then the line would end up skipping New Hope Commons. Whoopity-crap: N.H.C is a single-use, sprawling car-oriented shopping center that would make for a terrible fixed-guideway transit stop anyway. Much better to build through undeveloped areas and let the TOD engines take it from there. 15-501 is a veritable "corridor of crap" - endless suburban strip malls with limited redevelopment potential that couldn't possibly be well-served by tranist due to its nature as a high-volume thoroughfare. Perhaps bus lanes would be helpful for the TTA, CHT, and DATA routes that will continue to use the road, but I don't think that it would make for a very effective rapid transit corridor.

[JunktionFET]

I will tell you this: if you aren't a student, and you want to have a life, you need a car. Period. I'm no longer a student but I still don't have a car, so I'm finding that out the hard way (lots of Friday nights spent typing away on urbanplanet lately...)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think CAT needs an overhaul. I'm not terribly impressed with their routes or schedules. It works, but I believe it could be a lot better. Charlotte's bus system really impressed me when I lived there--it might be a good model to follow.

Additionally, I'd like to see some streetcar/light rail routes (re)established as we've discussed before--up Glenwood Ave perhaps to Crabtree Valley and another one along Hillsborough St. Perhaps in time Six Forks Rd will be a worthy candidate, at least as far as North Hills. I believe it would really assist those buzzing corridors quite a bit.

Just a random idea, I don't have the alignments perfect or anything... The red line is the Hillsborough St route--connects Gorman St (maybe) to either Moore Square or the Government Center TTA rail station. The blue line is the Glenwood Ave route--connects Edwards Mill Rd to the Raleigh multimodal station. The green line indicates the proposed path of the TTA Regional Rail system

[orulz]

The more I think about Eastrans, the more it sounds EXACTLY like Nashville's "Music City Star" commuter rail line. They have a lightly-used freight line, and decided to rehab it with slightly heavier rail, do some work on a siding, and build some rudimentary stations. For rolling stock, they got used coaches/cab cars from Metra for $1 (one dollar!!) apiece, and found a few F40 locomotives in working order. All in all, they're making a 32 mile commuter line for $39 million dollars. That's dirt cheap.

The Norfolk Southern line to Fuquay-Varina, not actually included in the Eastrans report, would be the closest parallel to the Nashville project: it's lightly used, and the rail is old and lightweight (100RE jointed) so it needs to be replaced.

The line to Selma/Goldsboro would be a bit different because there's more traffic there, but sidings and signals are being installed so it might be possible.

The Raleigh-Wilson line should be CHEAPER than the Nashville-Lebanon line for the same level of service since the rail is already good enough for 59mph. And with the diversion of several daily trains through Goldsboro, this line is lightly traveled as well.

Hopefully the Nashville project will be smooth and successful. That way people in Raleigh will be able to point next door at the capital of Tennessee and say "Hey, it works for them, it can work here too!" From what I understand, a number of Metra coaches are about to come onto the market, and Amtrak has a bunch of underutilized P40 locomotives (built in the early 90s and in great working shape) that they'd certainly be willing to lease out.

[JunktionFET]

I have high hopes for Music City Star--both for Nashville and for other cities looking to establish a cheap commuter rail system. I am very fond of the Nashville concept and hope it leads to more in the future. For those who do not browse much outside of the North Carolina forums, there is a cool thread on Nashville's Music City Star commuter rail.

As we've said before, Eastrans is very resourceful and elegant. It is also promising that the towns it would serve seem to be "on board"--they seem to support the idea and realize the development potential it has for their most valuable property (downtown land).

The Fuquay line is interesting to me, though it isn't mentioned by the TTA plans or Eastrans. It is however shown as a transit corridor in the 2030 Wake County transportation plan. With the rate Fuquay is growing, and the possible increase in commuters from Fayetteville, a Raleigh-Fayetteville (via Fuquay) commuter line should be examined at some point. Ironically these are the same tracks that slide through the Dix property.

[ChiefJoJo]

Check out TTA's new website. It's got some new graphics and features and is a big improvement.

I haven't heard much lately other than TTA is still hoping to be in the next Transportation Bill.

FYI, here is some Federal Transit Administration (FTA) documentation that may be of interest: FTA's 2002 and 2003 analysis of TTA's initial projections for ridership and project costs and FTA's Nov 2004 "Not Rated" assessment of TTA's plans based on forecasting riderhip (user benefit concerns).

The user benefit concerns and lowered revenue stream from the rental car tax (which increases required Federal funding share from 50% to 60%) will have an impact on project selection in my view.

[orulz]

The user benefit concerns and lowered revenue stream from the rental car tax (which increases required Federal funding share from 50% to 60%) will have an impact on project selection in my view.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If I'm correct in reading between the lines of that document you linked to, the FTA wouldn't have even brought up the user benefit issues if the FTA New Starts share had been left at 49%.

I wonder whether a half-cent transportation sales tax like the one in Mecklenburg could ever pass in Wake and Durham counties. It's quite possible that we'll never see fixed guideway transit until we have a dedicated and sufficient revenue source for transit. Getting the public to agree is unlikely, unless TTA can provide a vision for how transit services will benefit everyone, not just the Downtown Raleigh to Downtown Durham market.

[ChiefJoJo]

If I'm correct in reading between the lines of that document you linked to, the FTA wouldn't have even brought up the user benefit issues if the FTA New Starts share had been left at 49%.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not exactly. For FTA to fund "new starts (fixed transit) projects" requires that it is "recommended" (financing, local support, land use, etc.) and has a cost/benefit rating of at least "medium." Check out the New Starts projects criteria (first 26 page pdf) for detailed info (if you are really bored or just really interested).

Essentially, because FTA had issues with TTA's modeling and ridership forecasting methods, there is no way to accurately give them a rating for cost/benefit, as there is no good measure for the benefit without the ridership numbers. These evaluations are done annually, and in previous years, they recommended the TTA rail project, but that was before the more stringent criteria was put in place recently. FTA is taking a much tougher look as these type of projects than ever before.

The local/state funding issue doesn't help either, as the feds like to see strong local participation in the form of financial support/commitments. TTA has that, but due to reveue shortfalls from lower than projected reveue streams from the rental car tax, we move from 50% non-fed money to 40% non-fed money and that's not a good thing.

There is a consultant doing the work as we speak to work out the modeling issues, and report back to TTA and FTA. When that is done, we'll see what the numbers show. Even if the cost/benefit ratio comes in "medium" or higher, that still only makes the project eligible for funding, it doesn't gurantee it. We should get an answer in a few months I think.

[ChiefJoJo]

I wonder whether a half-cent transportation sales tax like the one in Mecklenburg could ever pass in Wake and Durham counties. It's quite possible that we'll never see fixed guideway transit until we have a dedicated and sufficient revenue source for transit. Getting the public to agree is unlikely, unless TTA can provide a vision for how transit services will benefit everyone, not just the Downtown Raleigh to Downtown Durham market.

I agree completely. That was a brilliant move by Clt. Show the feds a local committment and back it up with dollars. They developed a trolley and put in some of the trackwork and multiuse pathways and lighting, etc. wth the money generated ($50 mil/yr). As a result, developers built around those stops in the southend and look at what it's done. It will be a tremendous success I think.

Could it pass here? I'm not sure we have the regional support to pass a tax like that. Hell, Clt/Meck's referendum only passed by just over 50% I think. It would be a great for our community to decide that we are going to be committed to transit for the long haul, but right now, I don't see that type of support. I hope I'm wrong.

[ChiefJoJo]

FYI, here's FTA's various ratings of TTA's project:

Project Justification Rating: Not Rated

This project is Not Rated for project justification, based upon the absence of acceptable information on cost effectiveness. The project received a Medium rating for transit-supportive land use.

Cost Effectiveness Rating: Not Rated

As noted, TTA has not submitted to FTA acceptable estimates of the travel-time benefits for the Raleigh Regional Rail System, as modified in July 2004, therefore, FTA cannot rate the project

[Subway Scoundrel]

Going back to Morrisville, I don't really know that area of the TTA plan as well I know the North Raleigh to Cary part, but I remember a few years back where TTA had a proposed a planned stop and the town of Morrisville said no due to the traffic. So at that time, they pushed it out. I would think (of course, this is a non-transit area) that a town like Morrisville with no visable CBD would jump at the chance to finally have something to build around, beside warehouses and a outlet mall by the airport. Maybe this was discussed but I did not catch this in this forum. Anyone remember the response the town of Morrisville gave to TTA? I think it wss around 2001-2002. Again, if was covered, ignore my response.

[JunktionFET]

I would think (of course, this is a non-transit area) that a town like Morrisville with no visable CBD would jump at the chance to finally have something to build around, beside warehouses and a outlet mall by the airport.  Maybe this was discussed but I did not catch this in this forum.  Anyone remember the response the town of Morrisville gave to TTA?  I think it wss around 2001-2002.  Again, if was covered, ignore my response.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This post from me describes an article I read recently where the town planner for Morrisville seemed quite excited about the possibility of a TTA rail line. The article was recent (around the time of the NCAA Championship).