Triangle Regional Transit

[urbanesq]

Chapel Hill already has the most progressive view on mass transit in the state (Leave Your Car Behind Campaign and free bus service) and leaving our community out of this just doesn't make much sense.  Economically it may have repercussions as many if not all surface lots in town will be history with the new developments downtown.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Chapel Hill's transit system is great if (and only if) one is affiliated with the university. Otherwise, it's not time competitive with driving. Also, while they purport to be pro-transit, I have been repeatedly disappointed to see that Chapel Hill's leaders have opposed the train coming into the community. Last I knew, they favored a much more expensive, much less user-friendly fixed guideway bus system a la Ottawa. They were apparently so wowed by a trip there several years ago that they subsequently refused to see that system

[DanRNC]

Yea, I believe they were looking at a fixed guideway bus system but that was going to be used primarily as a link between the main campus and Carolina North. I don't think that was ever proposed for the TTA system. I honestly don't see us getting rail service in the near future-whether by the powers at the TTA or the CH town council or a combination of both. Its a shame considering I go to Durham every day and Raleigh every weekend and could easily ditch my car.

[urbanesq]

Yea, I believe they were looking at a fixed guideway bus system but that was going to be used primarily as a link between the main campus and Carolina North. I don't think that was ever proposed for the TTA system. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It was my recollection that at one point, CH officials were pushing for a fixed busway on the 15-501 corridor; so that one would get on the bus in Chapel Hill, and switch to the train at Duke Med. And since nobody would want to do that TTA was concerned that ridership on the system would be significantly lower than it would be if the train went all the way to CH.

That said, I absolutely agree that it's a shame there's not a Durham-Chapel Hill connection in Phase I, but totally understand given the political climate and the increased cost (no existing rail corridor into CH on which to build TTA's system).

[jlblaes]

A Federal Transit Administration monthly report casts serious doubt on whether the Triangle Transit Authority will be able to meet its deadline of opening the $694.6 million regional rail system by December 2008.

If TTA gets its house in order by then, the authority would be in position to receive a long-term funding commitment from the federal government. But if TTA misses that deadline, the 28-mile rail system's opening could be delayed by a year - a setback that would add millions of dollars to the rail system's cost.

Triangle Business Journal Article

JB

[IBruton]

A Federal Transit Administration monthly report casts serious doubt on whether the Triangle Transit Authority will be able to meet its deadline of opening the $694.6 million regional rail system by December 2008.

If TTA gets its house in order by then, the authority would be in position to receive a long-term funding commitment from the federal government. But if TTA misses that deadline, the 28-mile rail system's opening could be delayed by a year - a setback that would add millions of dollars to the rail system's cost.

Triangle Business Journal Article

JB

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This project is already years behind schedule. It wouldn't suprise me if it never gets built. Perhaps a change in the administration would help things progress a bit.

[capitalapts]

This project is already years behind schedule.  It wouldn't suprise me if it never gets built.  Perhaps a change in the administration would help things progress a bit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why do you hate America, IBruton?

[just kidding!]

[urbanesq]

Change in the Federal Administration? I'm with you!

Change in TTA's administration? Nah. They're doing a great job. The trouble is a relative lack of local political will to make this thing happen quickly. Unlike Charlotte, where the business community and local government rallied around the concept of high density corridors as a way to promote economic development, provide mobility options, and create a vibrant central city.

[orulz]

I'm not so sure that TTA's administration is doing so well. They've done a superb job planning and running the bus system (late buses due to traffic jams aside) and a good job planning and doing the behind the scenes planning for the rail line, but I think they've dropped the ball on public relations.

If they had done a better job at promotion, they could have drummed up support in the business community, local governments, and public at large. Charlotte has a comprehensive, well-publicised, openly discussed 2025 plan - we have a single line planned in excruciating detal, plus the nebulous promise of "future exensions." Many are left without a clear understanding of what they're getting and get the feeling that it's being rammed down their throats.

I think that TTA administration could definitely learn a thing or two from CATS.

[monsoon]

It also helps greatly that CLT voted in a special 1/2 cent sales tax for transit. That went a long way in convincing the Feds it would be a viable system. The car rental tax in the Triangle doesn't come close to generating the same amount of revenue and should be supplimented by a local option sales tax as well.

[orulz]

Yes - but no one would have approved the transit sales tax if CATS had said "We know we're going to build the South Corridor LRT, and then probably extend it to the University area. From there, we'll probably build some extensions to serve other areas but we're not sure where, when, or how."

That's pretty much the line that TTA has been giving us.

Cats, on the other hand, said "We're going to build five, fixed guideway transit lines on these five corrodors, serving these important destinations and boosting development in these ways." They knew all that before they even pitched the sales tax to the public, and in fact they made it the core of their efforts to promote it. CATS promoted a transit system, TTA promoted a transit line.

See the difference?

[orulz]

To extend on my previous post, I think that if TTA misses the deadline and gets put off for another year, they should spend that year filling in some details of the "future extensions" in their plan - in other words, make it something regional - something everybody in the triangle can benefit from.

Then, spend some time peddling it to local governments, business communities, and the public. City Councils and County Commissions across the area are about as liberal and transit-friendly as they've ever been; If you can get Wake, Durham, and Orange counties all to sign on, then a half percent would go a very long way. Even a quarter percent would probably do the job.

That is the only real way to solve TTA's financial problems. And if they can't garner enough support, then so be it - if another source of revenue for the regional rail line can't be found (a TIF district, for example) then just give up on the idea of rail transit for a decade or so.

[urbanesq]

Fair point re: the public relations thing. TTA could do a much better job selling itself and the proposed system.

But I've been following this project for a while, have been in on tons of public meetings, panels, discussions and forums (fora?) about it, and I think the main problem has been that the agency has operated without strong support from the area's municipalities, or at least, from their elected officials. Durham has been supportive, but Chapel Hill has not, and it just can't have helped that prior to Meeker's election, you had the mayors of Raleigh essentially saying "I think this is a waste of money and I don't think we should do anything to help it along." And, of course, they worked very hard against it.

Plus, until fairly recently, the majority of the Triangle's delegation at the General Assembly was opposed to additional funding for TTA and would not have voted for the local tax option that helped Charlotte so very much.

It's easier in Charlotte, too, of course, since they had bascially one government to deal with, and Hugh McColl who wanted it to happen. Here you have, what? 20 local governments with a voice in the TTA system, and until very recently there was no similar business giant demanding it. Harder to integrate mobility options into a region that way.

No amount of PR spin is going to counteract that relative lack of political will.

My sense is that now there is a growing, if not yet critical, mass of people who think that having high density corridors is essential to the region's economic vitality. So maybe the tides will finally shift in TTA's favor someday soon...

[ChiefJoJo]

If they had done a better job at promotion, they could have drummed up support in the business community, local governments, and public at large. Charlotte has a comprehensive, well-publicised, openly discussed 2025 plan - we have a single line planned in excruciating detal, plus the nebulous promise of "future exensions." Many are left without a clear understanding of what they're getting and get the feeling that it's being rammed down their throats.

Having a well thought out and studied 20+ year long range transit SYSTEM plan is the proper foundation for any transit project. You have a solid plan from which future projects can be drawn. TTA has been very short sided in this respect. TTA, CAMPO, and DCHC will supposedly engage in a transit system plan in the next two years--too little too late.

CATS, on the other hand, said "We're going to build five, fixed guideway transit lines on these five corrodors, serving these important destinations and boosting development in these ways." They knew all that before they even pitched the sales tax to the public, and in fact they made it the core of their efforts to promote it. CATS promoted a transit system, TTA promoted a transit line.

Very well stated. Having a well thought out system plan with the proper marketing plan would have prodcued significantly better results.

[orulz]

Durham has been supportive, but Chapel Hill has not...

I'll give you one guess as to why:

The TTA regional rail line goes to Durham, and it doesn't go to Chapel Hill! Although TTA has done studies and had discussions plans for the transit line to Chapel Hill, essentially none of it has happened out in the open. The feasibility studies and reports are just filed away on TTA's shelves somewhere.

Remember the discussion of the Timberlake Trail in Durham, where an old Norfolk Southern Right-of-way would be bought by the city and county of Durham to extend the Tobacco Trail another 25 miles to the north? Well, when that discussion came up TTA said "Yeah, we want to run rail transit up that line to northern Durham County some time in the future."

When I read that I just about choked on my coffee. That's the first I'd heard about any such concept. And I've been following this project religiously and pestering the staff on a regular basis about future extesions. They're just so tight-lipped about it!

If you can come up with a financial plan that will give Chapel Hill and Carrboro a reasonably solid date that they WILL have their rail line by, and then bring that financial plan before the voters of Orange County, then you can bet your bottom dollar that it'd get approved even if it meant a sales tax.

prior to Meeker's election, you had the mayors of Raleigh essentially saying "I think this is a waste of money and I don't think we should do anything to help it along."  And, of course, they worked very hard against it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But Meeker & Co are in office now with little in the way of challengers, so the time to move on building up more local support is now. Unfortunately, it may already be too late and TTA's image may be irreparably damaged.

But I really think that you'll find regional support for transit in areas where you wouldn't expect: for example, Eastrans is being pushed by Knightdale and is backed by municipalities throughout eastern Wake County - and that's a VERY sprawling, suburban area. Apex, Cary, even Fuquay-Varina.. they all have ideas for what they want to do when rail service comes to town.

I think that if all parties play their cards right, there is definitely enough support for a transit tax in the triangle.

[Subway Scoundrel]

I have been following TTA since its inception and here area a few points to the posts above:

Durham- Some Durham people may be for it but the big blow was when the Duke President/Hospital CEO said he would not allow for the train to spur down by the Hospital. It was to be elevated and he gave the excuse once "he had lived in Chicago and did not like elevated trains". I think it has more to do with parking revenue than elevated trains.

For Chapel Hill, the cost is great to get there but have to make the people there want it.

But they should throw all their efforts to the current plan but show what it could become in the future in Phase 2,3,4 and 5.

I think they should do forward planning and let people know what is can become, but the issue is Right Wing Radio and others will tear it apart as even a larger boondoggle if they push too hard on the outer phases. I don

[yfreemark]

This week's Indy has a very good column by Bob Geary about the TTA.

meanwhile...whats the grassroots organization screaming for transit funding here? who's pushing our legislators? why don't we start an organization here ... citizens of the triangle for transit, perhaps?

[orulz]

This week's Indy has a very good column by Bob Geary about the TTA.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for pointing out the article, which can be read here. He also mentions Dorothea Dix - and how he likes the city's plan (with lots of residential) a lot.

In fact, I agree with basically everything that Geary wrote in his article. That leads me to two possible conclusions: 1. He reads UrbanPlanet, or 2. I've been unwittingly reading his mind.

[orulz]

Two interesting articles about the TTA today. One from the News and Observer and another from the Independent Weekly.

The article in the N&O highlights cost increases in the TTA rail line. They're saying that the cost has now increased to $694 million, but I'm sure I've heard that number somewhere before.

The article in the Indy Weekly says basically everything that we at UP have been saying all along. It's nice to see some coverage of this point of view in the press, although the Indy isn't quite what you'd call mainstream.

[ChiefJoJo]

Here is the article from the N&O on the TTA developer that was selected.

[urbanesq]

Run it like a product announcement !!!   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly! They need to market it like a product because it is one.

(although I have to say, transit chief as sex symbol seems over the top. And more than a little scary... )

[urbanesq]

The TTA regional rail line goes to Durham, and it doesn't go to Chapel Hill!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Village leaders in Chapel Hill prevented the railroad from coming to town 100 years ago, which is why there is no good existing rail corridor through which TTA could get its trains into town 100 years later.

I've long thought TTA should acknowledge Chapel Hill's resistance to the train and run their system straight out of Durham along the existing rail corridor to Hillsborough. It would provide for an eventual commuter connection to the Triad, plus there are plenty of development opportunities along the way. And, it would allow Chapel Hill to continue to focus on buses like it wants to.

[monsoon]

In reading through this thread, I was flabberghasted to discover the TTA line does not include Chapel Hill and Caroboro. Those two places have the most TOD in the entire Triangle from what I have seen and stand to gain the most from having train access. (and vice versa)

[Subway Scoundrel]

In reading through this thread, I was flabberghasted to discover the TTA line does not include Chapel Hill and Caroboro.  Those two places have the most TOD in the entire Triangle from what I have seen and stand to gain the most from having train access.  (and vice versa)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is not natural rail corridor that I know of. There is a line that comes through Carroboro from somewhere, but not from Duke down 15-501 into Franklin St and come near the Smith Center. It would cost billions to do this and not yet in the plan. There are some tracks near by but as stated above, I think, no tracks in Chapel Hill. What kills me is Duke is fighting them from coming further down "Hospital Row" which would also serve the west/east ?? campus

[urbanesq]

There is not natural rail corridor that I know of.  There is a line that comes through Carroboro from somewhere, but not from Duke down 15-501 into Franklin St and come near the Smith Center.  It would cost billions to do this and not yet in the plan.  There are some tracks near by but as stated above, I think, no tracks in Chapel Hill.    What kills me is Duke is fighting them from coming further down "Hospital Row" which would also serve the west/east ?? campus

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The existing rail corridor goes west from the Duke Med area roughly parallel to Highway 70, taking a turn south in the vicinity of University Station Road, then through Carrboro and into the very western edge of Chapel Hill near the university's utility works. Not exactly a convenient corridor.

It's insane that the area's largest single-site employer doesn't want a stop for its employees that would increase their mobility options. Has anyone ever tried to get into the parking deck at 8am? If I worked there I would demand an alternative.

(Side note-- does anyone else remember the extremely controversial and ill-fated Univeristy Station development proposal?)

[MR-2]

The CoGeneration plant operates the only rail line that goes into central Carrboro (it doesn't actually go into Chapel Hill except when it gets to the power plant). It's a single track, so it wouldn't be very conducive to moving passengers.

If they built a rail line, it would probably have to follow a similar corridor because Chapel Hill's too dense to have a ground-level line. That's fine; the bus system would make it work, and a stop next to the Carr Mill Mall in Carrboro would be ace for the area. If they really wanted a good system though they'd have to make an underground that went right to the Rosemary/MLK intersection.