Southside News Thread

[bobliocatt]

Nordstrom scouts site in Jacksonville

By KAREN BRUNE MATHIS

The Times-Union

Upscale fashion retailer Nordstrom Inc. has confirmed it is considering opening a department store at the new St. Johns Town Center off Butler Boulevard.

"We do continue to look at Jacksonville and St. Johns Town Center as a possible location for a Nordstrom store," spokeswoman Jennifer Willey said this week. Nordstrom does not confirm a location until it signs a letter of intent to open a store, she said. Construction then takes about two years.

"Currently we have no commitments" in Jacksonville, Willey said.

Based on Nordstrom's timetable, the earliest it could open in Jacksonville would be 2007 if it signed a letter of intent in early 2005.

Nordstrom is one of two top-tier retailers considering a Jacksonville entry. Macy's confirmed recently it wanted to open in the city as well.

Nordstrom reports its philosophy is to offer customers the best possible service, selection, quality and value.

"It's the pinnacle of retailing," said Jacksonville native Steve Tool, a retail real estate broker with Grubb & Ellis/Phoenix Realty Group.

Tool, who is not involved with negotiations regarding Nordstrom, said the company focuses "on a level of service we don't typically see in a large retail store. It's just a refined shopping experience."

He compares a Nordstrom with a National Football League franchise. "There are only a certain number of cities that get an NFL football team. There are only a certain number of cities that get a Nordstrom. It puts you on the map."

The 150-store chain operates six stores in Florida: Boca Raton, Coral Gables, Miami, Orlando, Tampa and Wellington. A seventh store should open in spring 2006 in Palm Beach Gardens, according to the Nordstrom.com Web site. It also operates a Faconnable Boutiques store in Coral Gables and one of its Nordstrom Rack stores, its off-price store concept, in Sunrise.

Willey said Nordstrom operates 94 full-line stores, 49 Rack stores, five Faconnable boutiques, one shoe store and one clearance store.

She also confirmed Thursday that Nordstrom was considering Jacksonville before the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. Many retailers re-evaluated expansion plans after 9/11.

Speculation has circulated for years Nordstrom might be interested in Jacksonville. The talk gained traction last week when St. Johns Town Center developers said they would start work in early 2005 on the retail center's second phase.

The first phase, of 1.1 million square feet of retail stores, should open March 18. Site plans for the second phase clearly show a two-story, 140,000-square-foot department store and a two-story, 80,000-square-foot department store, although neither is identified.

Nonetheless, the plans fit the size ranges for Nordstrom and Macy's, another long-rumored newcomer.

A top Burdines-Macy's executive confirmed in early December the chain, which will shed the Burdines name, wanted to "have a major presence" in Jacksonville, meaning more than one location. Its stores range from 80,000 to 650,000 square feet in size.

Willey said Nordstrom stores range from 120,000 to 225,000 square feet.

Ben Carter Properties of Atlanta and Simon Property Group of Indianapolis are jointly developing the St. Johns Town Center on 207 acres at Butler Boulevard and St. Johns Bluff Road/Florida 9A. The first phase will include more than 100 retailers and restaurants, among them a 240,000-square-foot flagship Dillard's store as well as Dick's Sporting Goods, DSW Shoe Warehouse and The Cheesecake Factory.

More than 30 of the stores and restaurants are new to the market.

Jacksonville native Paisley Boney, Carter's chief executive officer, said last week Simon and Carter "are in negotiations with several" department store anchors, and "one, maybe two" will be part of the second phase.

Simon Executive Vice President Thomas Schneider said at least one department store, along with other shops and restaurants, could open in fall 2006 or spring 2007 and developers would start work on that phase early next year.

The second phase will add from 400,000 to 500,000 square feet of stores and restaurants.

Boney noted Nordstrom has been expanding in Florida. Asked about Macy's, Nordstrom and other higher-level retail chains, he responded "all I can say is we're in discussions with all those department stores."

Observers maintained the city has not attracted those stores because it did not have income levels to support them.

Boney told a business group this year that the area's average household income rose from $21,500 in 1980 to $75,300 this year. Also, many of the highest incomes are found in housing along area waterfronts, including the Beaches area and along the St. Johns River and Intracoastal Waterway.

Boney said St. Johns Town Center is convenient to those areas, as well as all of Northeast Florida, because Butler Boulevard connects the Beaches to Interstate 95 and because Florida 9A will complete the Interstate 295 loop around the city.

Willey declined to discuss the income levels Nordstrom considers when choosing a location.

"For us, it's about finding the right opportunity at the right time," she said. "We look for a strong retail competition, a strong and unique mix of merchants and for economic health and growth in that region."

Mark Vitner, senior economist at Wachovia Corp. and a former Jacksonville resident, said a Nordstrom and Macy's also would keep more shopping dollars in Jacksonville, "so there is some real benefit."

"But I think it's more of a psychological boost to Jacksonville that, yes, Jacksonville is playing in the big leagues, just like getting the Jaguars."

This story can be found on Jacksonville.com at http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stor..._17573695.shtml.

[wolfdawg54]

It is good news that Nordstrom is looking at Jacksonville! That would be a great addition to our city but it is a shame that they will be going into the mall so far away from downtown. I wish that it would move in closer like by Regency. Then again Regency is not very good.

[Urban_Legend]

I could definitely see Nordstrom as a tenant in the St. Johns Town Center. Some cities can be defined by the retail they attract, and I'd love to see Nordstrom and Macy's in Jax. I know my rich aunts would go crazy if this store opened up. Usually they have to go to St. Augustine or even South Florida to shop, but then again, they're crazy shoppers, lol.

[bobliocatt]

Saks considers opening a store in Jacksonville

By KAREN BRUNE MATHIS

The Times-Union

Add Saks Fifth Avenue to the upscale retailers being courted for the St. Johns Town Center.

Thomas Schneider, executive vice president of development for Simon Property Group, confirmed Monday that Simon was talking to Saks as well as Nordstrom Inc. and Federated Department Stores Inc., which owns Macy's.

"We are talking to those three specifically," Schneider said.

Simon, based in Indianapolis, is developing the 207-acre Southside commercial center with Atlanta-based Ben Carter Properties. The first phase of 1.1 million square feet at Butler Boulevard and St. Johns Bluff Road/Florida 9A is scheduled to open March 18.

Saks spokeswoman Julia Bentley said Monday the company had no comment about questions regarding its interest in Jacksonville.

"The upscale stores like to cluster together," said John Godfrey, chief economist of Jacksonville-based Florida Economic Associates. "They get wind that one type of store is coming in, and they don't want to get left out."

Executives with Burdines-Macy's and Nordstrom both confirmed within the past several weeks that they were considering stores in Jacksonville.

Macy's could open more than one store in Northeast Florida but did not specify locations. Nordstrom confirmed it was looking at St. Johns Town Center.

Like Macy's and Nordstrom, Saks Fifth Avenue is considered a top-tier department store. The entrance of those chains signals that Jacksonville's population and incomes can support them.

"It means that our demographics are favorable in their eyes," Godfrey said.

Some area shoppers who travel to top-tier stores out of town might buy more in Jacksonville if those retailers operate closer to home.

"There will be less diversion of income," Godfrey said.

Schneider said Simon is "proceeding with preliminary plans" for the second phase of St. Johns Town Center, which is designed with at least 400,000 square feet of stores and restaurants. Site plans specify two unidentified anchor department stores and also show that land is available for construction of a third.

"We have land. We have the availability to accommodate three," Schneider said.

The two stores on the plans are described as a two-story, 140,000-square-foot building and a two-story, 80,000-square-foot building. Nordstrom said its stores are usually 125,000 to 225,000 square feet, and Macy's start at 80,000 square feet. Two recently opened Saks Fifth Avenue stores were 80,000 and 120,000 square feet, and Bentley said the average size is about 100,000 square feet.

Schneider said that construction on at least part of the second phase, which could include some or all of the department stores, could start by late 2005 and be completed by late 2006 or early 2007. Nordstrom said it takes two years to build a store once it chooses a site.

The first phase of St. Johns Town Center will feature more than 100 stores, including a flagship, 240,000-square-foot Dillard's department store as well as the city's first Dick's Sporting Goods, DSW Shoe Warehouse, The Cheesecake Factory, P.F. Chang's China Bistro and Maggiano's Little Italy.

More than 30 of the first-phase stores and restaurants are new to Jacksonville.

Retailers Horace Saks and Bernard Gimbel opened the first Saks Fifth Avenue 80 years ago in New York City. The company evolved through several ownership changes. In 1998, Saks Holding Inc. and Proffitt's Inc. merged and the company was named Saks Inc. and is headquartered in Birmingham, Ala.

The company, with almost 400 stores, has been closing some stores and opening others. George Jones, president of Saks Department Store Group, said in December that the changes are "consistent with our strategy of rationalizing our real estate portfolio so that we can focus our resources on our most productive locations."

Bentley said the company announced it would close 10 Saks Fifth Avenue stores, three Off 5th stores, four Proffitt's and two Parisian stores. None of those is in Florida.

The closings have affected the company's income, according to the saksincorporated.com Web site. For the nine months that ended Oct. 30, Saks reported a net loss of $31.7 million, including charges of $22.2 million related to the planned store closings. Sales for the nine months rose 7 percent to $4.37 billion. Annual sales last year topped $6 billion.

During the third quarter, Saks opened Saks Fifth Avenue stores in Raleigh, N.C., and in Plano, Texas. It also opened a Younkers store in Des Moines, Iowa, and a Proffitt's in Birmingham, Ala.

This story can be found on Jacksonville.com at http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stor..._17597297.shtml.

[bobliocatt]

Baymeadows plan crosses hurdle

By DAVID BAUERLEIN

The Times-Union

The conversion of Jacksonville's Baymeadows Golf Club into a 1,400-unit development of condominiums and houses got a green light Wednesday from a key City Council committee, even thoughresidents say the city's fair-share program won't solve traffic woes on Baymeadows Road.

The council's transportation committee voted 5-1 in favor of the fair-share application in which the developer would spend at least $4.9 million for work that includes building turn lanes, closing median openings and realigning an intersection on Baymeadows Road near Interstate 95. The application will go to the City Council for approval as soon as next week.

A crowd of homeowners who live along the golf course urged the City Council to reject the application because even with the developer-financed work, Baymeadows Road will remain a four-lane road and it needs six lanes to be wide enough for the traffic load, according to the residents. Neither City Hall nor the state Department of Transportation has any plans to widen that part of Baymeadows Road to six lanes.

At issue is the city's fair-share program, which allows development to add traffic on roads that are over capacity by city standards, so long as the developer will pay to help widen congested roads.

T.R. Hainline, representing the developer, D.R. Horton, said the application is no different from the 180 other fair-share agreements approved by the City Council. He noted the council has never rejected a fair-share application and has twice approved previous developments that added traffic on Baymeadows Road.

"We wouldn't be here if your staff didn't think we met the requirements," Hainline said.

But Councilman Art Graham, who cast the only dissenting vote, said if the development's traffic impact is great enough, the council has the right to say "OK, wait a minute. What are we doing? We need to fix Baymeadows before we do anything else in this area, and I think that's where we are today. We never have turned down a fair share. I think this is a clear example of a fair share that should be turned down."

Residents living along the golf course, which was built in 1969, learned in August the current owner of the course planned to sell the land to D.R. Horton. Horton's plan calls for 1,200 condominiums, 200 houses, 150,000 square feet of general office space and 60,000 square feet for retail. The land is already zoned for that kind of development, so the fair-share application became the focal point for opponents trying to stop the redevelopment.

Frank Morgan, who is a deep-sea diving enthusiast, joined other residents plunging head-first into research of the state and city laws on growth management.

"I learned a lot more than I ever cared to," he said in an interview at his condominium, where a back-door balcony overlooks a fairway and the only noise from a motorized vehicle is a golf cart. "It's out of necessity."

He said it's "laughable" the state would have growth-management laws aimed at not approving development unless roads have capacity for the extra traffic, but the fair-share program can allow it even if there is no plan to fix an overcapacity road like Baymeadows.

Amid dueling legal interpretations between lawyers hired by D.R. Horton and the residents, council members turned to the city General Counsel's Office for an opinion.

Assistant General Counsel Shannon Scheffer said there is no requirement that the city have a plan for correcting failures on a road. She said the criterion is whether the fair-share application contains enough funding to pay for improvements that will offset the impact of the developer's traffic.

Hainline said Horton's application meets that standard. Horton's fair-share obligation is for $4.9 million of work, according to city planners. Hainline said Horton is agreeing to do $5.4 million of work and also donated up to 5 acres valued at $1.75 million to the Jacksonville Transportation Authority for a future transit station.

"We're paying more than our fair share to ensure that traffic conditions on Baymeadows Road will be either maintained or improved," Hainline said.

Scheffer said state law authorizes the city's fair-share program and the Florida Department of Community Affairs has signed off on Jacksonville's implementation of it. Department spokeswoman Erin Geraghty said in a telephone interview the state agency would need to do research before commenting on the city's program.

david.bauerleinjacksonville.com, (904) 359-4581

This story can be found on Jacksonville.com at http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stor..._17616403.shtml.

[bobliocatt]

Golf club set to be turned into housing

By MATT GALNOR and DAVID BAUERLEIN

The Times-Union

A plan to turn Baymeadows Golf Club into 1,400 houses and condominiums is now set to go after the Jacksonville City Council on Tuesday approved at least $4.9 million in developer-funded transportation improvements, following the city's fair share law.

Those who live nearby are convinced they'll now see more than their fair share of traffic, regardless of how much is spent to revamp the roads.

"All the money in the world can't fix the problem," said Marsha Berdit, who has lived in the area for about 30 years. "We've got gridlock as it is."

Residents living along the course have spoken loudly against the proposal for months now, but fell just short as the council voted 11-8 late Tuesday in favor of the proposal.

The land is already zoned for the residential development, so getting the council to turn down the fair share bill was the neighbors' only hope.

Plans call for D.R. Horton n to develop 1,200 condominiums, 200 houses, 150,000 square feet of office space and 60,000 square feet of retail.

"What we're going to do is choke the life out of Baymeadows Road," said Councilman Art Graham, who represents the area and voted against the proposal.

Attorney T.R. Hainline, who represents D.R. Horton, said the development meets all city zoning and planning requirements. The developer is required to pay at least $4.9 million, but Hainline said the company will pay a total of $7.1 million. That includes donating up to 5 acres -- valued at about $1.75 million -- for a future transit station.

The fair share agreement for redeveloping Baymeadows Golf Club is authorized by state growth management laws, said Mike Mike McDaniel, an administrator with the state Department of Community Affairs.

McDaniel, who is based in Tallahassee, said Baymeadows Road is considered a constrained road. A constrained road is one where building more lanes is not an option because of environmental, physical, political or financial reasons. Baymeadows Road is heavily developed on either side with little room for expansion.

"This is not unique to Jacksonville," McDaniel said. "There are constrained facilities in Orlando, Miami, Palm Beach -- really, all over the place."

For constrained roads, the city is not required to have a plan for widening the road before approving a fair share agreement because "there are instances where it's just not possible to add more lanes to a road to improve the traffic situation," he said.

He said in such cases, adding turn lanes and donating land for a transit station -- two features of the fair share agreement for Baymeadows Golf Club -- are acceptable improvements for a constrained road, even if the road's traffic still remains over capacity without more lanes.

Those joining Graham in voting against the proposal were Elaine Brown, Jerry Holland, Suzanne Jenkins, Pat Lockett-Felder, Faye Rustin, Lynette Self and Art Shad.

[email protected], (904) 359-4550

[email protected], (904)359-4581

This story can be found on Jacksonville.com at http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stor...adowsgolf.shtml.

[bobliocatt]

St. Johns Town Center close to full occupancy

St. Johns Town Center is closer to 100 percent occupancy with the announcement today that the J. Crew Group Inc. and Hollister Co. will open stores at the 1.5-million-square-foot open-air retail mall.

J. Crew offers men's and women's clothing, including classicwear, sportswear and accessories. Hollister sells West Coast-inspired merchandise for high school age guys and girls.

Both retailers will enter the Northeast Florida market with the St. Johns Town Center locations, joining more than 70 national and specialty retailers including Dillard's, Target, Dick's Sporting Goods and Designer Shoe Warehouse.

National restaurant chains entering the Northeast Florida market include The Cheesecake Factory and P.F. Chang's China Bistro.

The $158 million regional mall at J. Turner Butler Boulevard and State Road 9A will open March 18 and is expected by next year to see a second phase featuring upscale retailers such as Saks Fifth Avenue, Nordstrom and Neiman Marcus.

St. Johns Town Center is a joint venture between Indianapolis-based Simon Property Group Inc. and Atlanta-based Ben Carter Properties LLC.

Simon (NYSE: SPG) is a real estate investment trust specializing in owning, developing and managing retail real estate, primarily regional malls, Premium Outlet centers and community shopping centers. Simon owns The Avenues and Orange Park Mall.

[Urban_Legend]

I'm really excited about the St. Johns Town Center! Although I wish all that retail and restaurants could be located downtown, it's still a nice addition to Jax, bringing so many new chains.

[wolfdawg54]

I was hoping for that too but I am glad that they are possibly coming and maybe if the like it, they will open up stores closer to downtown and possibly in the Regency area.

[bobliocatt]

Lets get to work on beefing up our supply of hotel rooms for future super bowls...

Driftwood to manage Southside Sheraton

Driftwood Hospitality Management has been selected as the management company for the new 159-room Sheraton hotel on the Southside. Long and Cox Properties, an Atlanta-based company, will oversee the construction and development. The hotel, which will go up at the southwest corner of Gate Parkway and J. Turner Butler Boulevard, is scheduled to break ground in the spring of 2005.

The full-service Sheraton Jacksonville hotel will feature 159 guestrooms and suites, 8,000 square feet of meeting facilities, and a Shula's Steakhouse restaurant.

"The Sheraton Jacksonville property is a perfect addition and the second new hotel within our portfolio," said Carlos Rodriguez, partner and executive vice president of acquisitions/development for Driftwood. "We look forward to working closely with Long and Cox to ensure the success and profitability of this hotel."

The project's developer likes the location because about four to five million square feet of office space are being developed there and it's close to the Mayo Clinic and the University of North Florida.

"With the rapid growth of business and residential projects, we feel this is the best hotel site in the city," said Jeff Long, president of Long and Cox Properties.

[Urban_Legend]

I wonder if we'll see a slight increase in hotel construction in Jacksonville, now that the city has been "put on the map".

[wolfdawg54]

I would assume so because the Super Bowl was a really big success for the city. I think that as demand grows in the area, more large hotels will be built in downtown and the remainder of the city.

[bobliocatt]

I think the super bowl will result in a miny hotel building boom in town. Almost everything written about the city during the past month as pointed out to the city's low number of hotel rooms and I'm sure some big wigs in town, noticed that, as well as the city's potential.

[Urban_Legend]

But I'd hope that most new hotels would be built in downtown, rather than the Southside. I have a feeling that more hotels might open up near the cruise terminal site.

[bobliocatt]

Builder buys Baymeadows Golf Club

Builder also plans to sue city because of Peyton's recent veto

By DAVID BAUERLEIN

The Times-Union

Golfers teed off for the last time Monday at Baymeadows Golf Club when a homebuilder bought the property, even though Jacksonville City Hall recently refused to allow construction of 1,400 homes on the course.

D.R. Horton completed its acquisition of the property Monday and is "confident in the value of the property" for future development, said company spokeswoman Victoria Pennington.

Horton bought the land at an undisclosed price from Fore Golf. The same day, Fore Golf announced to its employees that the sale meant the closure of the golf course, which dates back to 1969.

"It's the most prudent thing to do for our investors," Fore Golf President Michael Miraglia said of the decision to sell.

About 30 people worked at the golf course, he said.

Horton previously sought city approval for redeveloping the golf course by building 1,200 condominiums, 200 houses, 150,000 square feet of general office space and 60,000 square feet of retail. The property is zoned for such development. But traffic on Baymeadows Road is over capacity, requiring Horton to go through the city's fair share program in which developers agree to help pay for road work.

On Jan. 25, Mayor John Peyton vetoed the City Council's approval of a fair share agreement that would have let Horton convert the golf course to housing. Peyton said he could not agree to a development putting so much more traffic on Baymeadows Road. The council sustained the mayor's veto.

Pennington said Horton is preparing a lawsuit to challenge the city's denial of a fair share agreement. The city previously approved 180 fair share agreements; Horton's application was the first to be turned down.

Pennington said although the company is ready to go to court, Horton also would be interested in meeting with Peyton and Councilman Art Graham about whether any changes in Horton's proposal would make the development acceptable.

Susie Wiles, a top aide for Peyton, said the city would be open to such talks. She said the sale of the golf course did not come as a surprise.

Fore Golf invited developers to make offers for Baymeadows Golf Club last year and selected Horton, according to statements made by Horton's executives to the City Council.

david.bauerleinjacksonville.com, (904)359-4581

This story can be found on Jacksonville.com at http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stor..._17973210.shtml.

[wolfdawg54]

Oh goody. Here we go again with Mayor Peyton. Unfourtunately, this will not help our city at all because if it gets approved, it means more sprawl but if it is rejected, then it will just be a pain for Mr. Peyton to deal with. Either way it seems like a lose-lose situation.

[JaxInvestor]

Hooray for DR Horton...and I can already see the mayor backing down on this one, visa vis Miss Susie Wiles's comments above. If they didn't put the development here, it would've been somewhere out in Whitehouse or something. City doesn't stand a chance on this one.

[wolfdawg54]

Well it also could have gone somewhere closer to downtown also. Development out in the baymeadows area is just sprawl.

[JaxNole]

If the same office parks that have been built along the JTB corridor as well as along Baymeadows were developed downtown instead, how do you picture the Jacksonville central business district? For this discussion, let's assume the office space remains constant. What would be the tallest building? Would there have been any rezoning? What amenities would the CBD have developed? Keep in mind a few companies maintain multiple campuses. For example, Blue Cross Blue Shield has two large ones - one on Riverside Ave and another off Gate Pkwy, which is comprised of hundreds of thousands of square feet.

[wolfdawg54]

If the same office parks that have been built along the JTB corridor as well as along Baymeadows were developed downtown instead, how do you picture the Jacksonville central business district?  For this discussion, let's assume the office space remains constant.  What would be the tallest building?  Would there have been any rezoning?  What amenities would the CBD have developed?  Keep in mind a few companies maintain multiple campuses.  For example, Blue Cross Blue Shield has two large ones - one on Riverside Ave and another off Gate Pkwy, which is comprised of hundreds of thousands of square feet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You make a valid point but what if they were to be built downtown and make up several towers in downtown. Also, they might have helped to create a more vibrant downtown earlier. But we cannot play the what if game. What is there is there.

[JaxInvestor]

You make a valid point but what if they were to be built downtown and make up several towers in downtown. Also, they might have helped to create a more vibrant downtown earlier. But we cannot play the what if game. What is there is there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i think the point is that we are grateful that they are no longer focusing soley on just SPRAWL, SPRAWL, SPRAWL...this is good in-fill. it would be unrealistic to think every future development is now just going to be a new downtown tower, but this is a good sign of future things to come for the CBD and immediate surrounding areas.

[Viper]

Same with Meryl Lunch complex and imagine the Convergys building (originally AT&T) in Baymeadows.

Barnett Bank, Now NationsBank has a large complex in DeerWood too. If they took that complex plus the Tower at Regency together, they'd have a second Nations Bank Tower DT.

But like Wolfdawg said, the 'what if' game doesn't change anything but it's fun to speculate.

[vicupstate]

Burdette/Ketchum moving to Southbank

The Burdette/Ketchum marketing agency is moving to the Southbank after buying the former Spiller Vincenty Art Gallery building on Kings Avenue. The agency currently has offices in Deerwood.

Principals Karen Burdette and Will Ketchum formed a limited liability company to buy the building at 1023 Kings Ave. and plan to move the business in June. The sale of the 5,800-square-foot building for $635,000 closed last week.

"We're migrating from the suburbs to the city to be a part of the neighborhood's exciting renaissance," Burdette said. "The Southbank is a vibrant area with professional services firms, great restaurants, easy access to public transportation and lots of development, both in renovations of existing buildings and new growth."

Burdette/Ketchum provides marketing services including brand development, advertising, public relations, creative development, promotions, Web site creation and communications consulting.

It's small, but maybe, just maybe, it's a start.

[Urban_Legend]

I love it when businesses move out of the suburbs!

You go, Burdette/Ketchum! Go on, wit ur bad self!

[wolfdawg54]

Awesome news. I am so happy that businesses are starting to move back into downtown, This will certainly help the area and as some people say, the more the merrier!