UCF is planning football stadium

[cwetteland]

Alumni who go to CB games now will also go to an on campus stadium. More students will go on campus too.

That said, the Knights won't be filling a 70K stadium any time soon. Designing a 45-50K stadium anticipating a 25K expansion in 10 years might make good sense. That's as big or bigger than the best in Conf USA. Also, as the team grows they won't have to experience a bunch of half empty stadiums. Ben Hill Griffin and Doak Campbell stadiums (UF & FSU) expanded several times before they got to their current size.

If O'Leary can build the team as his 5 year plan calls for, I'm sure the Knights will pursue a bigger conference.

But, I would like to see the CB refurbished or rebuilt, and this won't help. Right now the CB sells out 2 times a year (FLA CLASSIC and CapOne). They occaisionally attract a few other big games in the past. A few years ago I went to a Notre Dame / Navy game that nearly filled the house. Knights put 20-30K in there 5 times a year and Champs Tangerine Bowl gets about 30-35K.

The BCS has talked about adding a 5th BCS bowl. Orlando would only be a candidate with a first class stadium. One day CapOne may walk. Conf USA which has a moving championship game may go a fixed location in the future like ACC and SEC. CB would be a great location but not in its current condition.

Concerts don't happen much there anymore. Nothing like 23 years ago when the Stones packed it two days in a row. You should have been there. Then again I saw Led Zeppelin in a tin barn off Econlockhatchee Tr. out near UCF. That doesn't happen anymore either.

[PghUSA]

Hey was that the "Orlando Colisieum"? That thing really is a barn. lol.

Hmmm about the stadium capacity thing, maybe there is a point to be made that expanding after 5 or 10 seasons is better then playing to a half crowd with 75k seats. Knowing Orlando though better to expand now then face orange cone land 5-10 years from now, stadium included. 50k though filled is better then 75k with tickets remaining . . . but the traffic situation really should be handled in thinking what will be.

The CB you can drive right past on the 408 and you can see it from I-4, UCF needs a spur interstate grade highway to its new stadium, they will be praying for one in 5-10 seasons, we are here in Pittsburgh and we have 2 interstate grade highways to ours--this in a pro town that doesnt draw much to the college game!

By the way good game vs. PennState here's hoping you beat them next time, I'm always a GoldenKnights fan when they play the blue and white

[cwetteland]

The Orlando Sports Stadium was off Econ between University and 50. Saw "Yes" at there too, opening for Tull. The Coliseum was a skating rink on Orange Ave a few blocks south of Princeton. There were some small events in the Coliseum.

[PghUSA]

The Orlando Sports Stadium was off Econ between University and 50. Saw "Yes" at there too, opening for Tull.  The Coliseum was a skating rink on Orange Ave a few blocks south of Princeton.  There were some small events in the Coliseum.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thats it, always thought that was the "sports coliseum" but i do remember it was "Orlando sports something" never heard of the coliseum by orange and princeton, I have family down there and went to Rollins but never heard of that place. Learning something new every day.

Always thought the 408 extension was much needed was hoping they would continue that north of colonial into Oviedo/Chuluota (sp) or out to the cape but with this stadium deal why not loop it back for easy access into UCF stadium and the UCF arena I know has concerts already.

[GreenHills]

Alumni who go to CB games now will also go to an on campus stadium.  More students will go on campus too.

That said, the Knights won't be filling a 70K stadium any time soon.  Designing a 45-50K stadium anticipating a 25K expansion in 10 years might make good sense.  That's as big or bigger than the best in Conf USA.  Also, as the team grows they won't have to experience a bunch of half empty stadiums.  Ben Hill Griffin and Doak Campbell stadiums (UF & FSU) expanded several times before they got to their current size.

If O'Leary can build the team as his 5 year plan calls for, I'm sure the Knights will pursue a bigger conference.

But, I would like to see the CB refurbished or rebuilt, and this won't help.  Right now the CB sells out 2 times a year (FLA CLASSIC and CapOne).  They occaisionally attract a few other big games in the past.  A few years ago I went to a Notre Dame / Navy game that nearly filled the house.  Knights put 20-30K in there 5 times a year and Champs Tangerine Bowl gets about 30-35K. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you're exactly right about how it is better to play in front of a packed or mostly packed house than to play in front of a half-empty stadium, even if there is the same number of fans in both situations. Also, as games actually start to sell out it likely will generate demand for season ticket sales as fans pay to have access to every game and not worry about sell outs. As for the students, many more will go to the games and will hopefully have a good time and come back in greater numbers after they graduate. Check out the attendance figures and you will see many students attend UCF and never go to a game.

West Virginia 32,224

N. Illinois 16,555

Akron 18,401

Ohio 20,498

Kent State 12,083

Although these numbers don't look particularly good, you have to consider that UCF plays in a rundown stadium that is fairly far away from campus and that this was an extremely bad year for UCF. With an improved team and a new stadium on campus, I think 40-50 thousand seats is just about right (so long as the stadium can be expanded as the program grows).

The next big question is what to do with the Citrus Bowl if UCF leaves. I don't think it's worth it to renovate the Citrus Bowl just for the Bowl games and for the chance to get the Super Bowl one year (or even once a decade). Although I recognize that it is unlikely, I think Orlando should only renovate the Citrus Bowl or build a new stadium if it can get an NFL team (and no I don't mean the Jaguars). Rather than build a new stadium without already having a team, the City or the County could come up with a stadium and financing plan and then shop it around to NFL clubs or to any possible expansion teams (I haven't heard of any expansion plans). The deal would be that the team agrees to play one year in the Citrus Bowl while the new stadium gets built, then move in to a new stadium the following year. I realize that this idea has all kinds of problems (the Bucs, Jags and Phins would all likely be against Orlando getting a team; financing would be tough even if there was broad public support; and I'm not sure if Orlando is even a big enough market yet to justify an NFL team).

[GreenHills]

UCF stadium talk creates worries

Some fear on-campus football would worsen traffic and place too much focus on the sport.

By George Diaz and David Damron

Sentinel Staff Writers

January 5, 2005

UCF officials are moving forward with plans for an on-campus stadium as the centerpiece of a football program that could rise to national prominence. But critics worry about traffic jams, environmental concerns and an undue emphasis on football that could overshadow other sports.

"This is huge," said Susan Eberle, who lives near the University of Central Florida and is a campus-growth watchdog. "To put a stadium there is unbelievable . . . especially when they have a perfectly good one downtown already."

An expandable 45,000-seat stadium -- at a cost estimated between $35 million and $45 million -- could be in place by the start of the 2006 football season, taking the Golden Knights out of the Florida Citrus Bowl. Funding would come from donors, ticket sales and concession sales.

Although school officials cite no major issues with the Citrus Bowl, they foresee an on-campus facility that would draw at least 15,000 of the 43,000 students who attend UCF, building tradition and helping recruit top athletes to the school. City leaders want the Knights to stay at the Citrus Bowl, where renovations are planned.

A 2006 stadium unveiling involves little room for delay. The next step would be a vote before the school's board of trustees and its chairman, Dick Nunis, within the next few weeks, though nothing has been formally scheduled.

"I would say it's at least 50-50 at this point, but we've got a lot of hurdles to cross," UCF President John Hitt said during a news conference Tuesday afternoon. "If you take a realistic goal everything would have to break perfectly . . . Nothing could go wrong."

Many of the hiccups could involve dissenting voices from those who live near UCF. Critics worry that a stadium will put even more strain on area roads, flood plains and green spaces on campus.

After hearing of the stadium plans Tuesday, residents and environmentalists said they were upset that UCF did not include even a single mention of a possible stadium in its long-range master plan, presented just late last year. School leaders approved that plan over complaints Nov. 30 -- as the university apparently pondered adding a stadium on campus.

"They don't let you know what they're doing," Eberle said. "What else are they doing, and why aren't we [the public] a part of the process?"

Hitt -- who said that critics are a vocal minority not reflective of the entire community -- explained that the idea of an affordable stadium started to come into focus in late October, after he was approached by UCF Athletic Director Steve Orsini. The school had scrapped plans for an on-campus stadium in 2002 when the cost was estimated at $107 million.

An unidentified stadium designer piqued Orsini's interest with the possibility of using prefabricated construction materials that involve more steel and less concrete, which lowers costs.

"If the numbers continue to look at favorable as they look now, I can get very enthusiastic about this," Hitt said.

Over the next two weeks, Hitt and Orsini will travel to a number of campuses where similar stadiums are in place, though the proposed UCF facility could be the first of its kind. Other schools using this construction process -- including Ohio State University, the University of Louisville and the University of Kentucky -- have expanded existing stadiums.

The UCF leaders hope their visits will produce insight into quality of materials, workmanship and structure.

"We wouldn't want something that looks like a Blue Light Special stadium," Hitt said.

With contractors using pre-fabricated materials, the school can order off a list -- no different than picking out accessories in a car -- and build a "state-of-the-art stadium without compromising the quality of the facility," Orsini said.

It would include skyboxes, high-quality scoreboard and TV-quality lighting, among other amenities.

The proposal would affect construction of a women's softball stadium on the east end of campus because that land is earmarked for the football stadium. That softball facility would be moved elsewhere on campus, and Orsini said that they will "try to meet the needs of next fall's softball team," by having the softball stadium in place by then.

The goal is to build UCF into a top 10 football program -- a stratospheric leap for a school that went winless this season. The focus on football is bothersome to some professors on campus.

"If I understand it right -- a designer that the president won't name offers a stadium bargain so spectacular that he and Dick Nunis are simply incredulous," said Dawn Trouward, an English professor and president of UCF's United Faculty of Florida union.

"Except everything has to break just right, and all you need to do is dump your friends and partners in the city, steamroller over the campus neighbors, and cancel the plans for your softball team's stadium."

George Diaz can be reached at [email protected] or 407-420-5668. David Damron can be reached at 407-420-5311 or [email protected].

[F-L-A]

and I'm not sure if Orlando is even a big enough market yet to justify an NFL team

Jacksonville has a team. 'Nuff said.

[sunshine]

LOL. I think Orlando would have a NFL team if Disney would jump on board, but dont think they want them to play in downtown anyway.

Orlando has a huge transient population but I think the support will be there if it is done right. Create another alternate activities for the tourists. It might also be good for the theme parks because people come here to see the game might visit the parks.

If that happended, Tampa Bucs will sure lose a lot of fans.

[PghUSA]

Jacksonville has a team. 'Nuff said.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's all about TV revenue and market size AND SCOPE, Denver is the SMALLEST market to have all 4 pro sport teams but there is no market beside it--thus the TV market can encompass something greater then the city and burbs of Denver, Buffalo NY for years tried to get a MLB team but Toronto . . . TORONTO! objected because Buffalo is in its "sphere of influence" . . . Orlando is kind of in the middle of all this with the Dolphins, Buccs and Jags, one of the reasons why the NHL won't come to Orlando and the NBA won't come to Tampa/St. Pete.

[Jaybee]

Let me get this straight:

Lie to the neighbors about your campus masterplan...

Say that a great stadium can be built from an unnamed "catalogue" at a realistic price, and you just priced one at 122M...

Turn your back on an opportunity to improve the infrastructure downtown, including the Citrus Bowl...

Never win a game...

Expect to create a top 10 football program...

Expect that the an on-campus stadium is a panacea for lack of spirit that is normally associated with commuter campus...

Build more onto a freeway extension to make it have more in common with a cul-de-sac...

...well, perhaps we should start a new website called sub-urban planet and let you all pontificate the merits of building more things on the periphery of a region for the whims of losing athletic directors.

This is an obvious ploy to getting an ace in the hole by UCF to not have to participate too much in the refurbishment of the Citrus Bowl. It will be the onerous of the "two mayors" of Orlando to begin cooperating to figure this out to improve a section of the City that this region just expects to be a front-lawn parking lot for the Citrus Bowl; lest UCF actually pulls from the Citrus Bowl.

[Jaybee]

...PS, when did steel become cheaper than concrete anyway?

[GreenHills]

Let me get this straight:

Lie to the neighbors about your campus masterplan...

Say that a great stadium can be built from an unnamed "catalogue" at a realistic price, and you just priced one at 122M...

Turn your back on an opportunity to improve the infrastructure downtown, including the Citrus Bowl...

Never win a game...

Expect to create a top 10 football program...

Expect that the an on-campus stadium is a panacea for lack of spirit that is normally associated with commuter campus...

Build more onto a freeway extension to make it have more in common with a cul-de-sac...

...well, perhaps we should start a new website called sub-urban planet and let you all pontificate the merits of building more things on the periphery of a region for the whims of losing athletic directors.

This is an obvious ploy to getting an ace in the hole by UCF to not have to participate too much in the refurbishment of the Citrus Bowl.  It will be the onerous of the "two mayors" of Orlando to begin cooperating to figure this out to improve a section of the City that this region just expects to be a front-lawn parking lot for the Citrus Bowl; lest UCF actually pulls from the Citrus Bowl.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jaybee,

While it's true UCF hasn't announced who the builder is going to be, I think there are enough examples of other schools recently building stadiums using the new building methods that result in significant cost savings to believe that the UCF estimate is reasonably accurate. The most commonly cited example I've heard mentioned is Louisville, who recently built a stadium for 63 million. Although slightly more than the estimate for the UCF stadium, there are several reasons why UCF might be able to build a stadium cheaper. First, Louisville did not build their stadium on campus-owned property, so the cost may include whatever they had to pay for the property (UCF of course already owns the property the proposed stadium will be built on). Second, the property Louisville built on was a former CSX railyard, so there may have been additional costs in converting the property from a railyard that will not be applicable to UCF's stadium plan. Third, Louisville's stadium has several amenities that UCF might choose to discard in order to reduce costs. Some of the amenities include: "All seats have backs and armrests; handicapped seating areas and full handicapped accessibility; 29 luxury suites; club-level seating connected to a club and entertainment for major donors; top-of-the-line video replay board; Louisville football museum named for alumnus and Hall of Fame quarterback Johnny Unitas." You can read about Louisville's stadium at: http://www.kypost.com/sports/stad090298.html

As for the Citrus Bowl and football downtown, I think it's an NFL team or bust. UCF moving on-campus could be a blessing in disguise if it results in forcing Orlando to pursue an NFL team. You can complain about UCF moving on-campus all you want, but my understanding is that this is pretty much a done-deal so long as UCF can successfully raise the funds (and I've heard there is already a promised 10 or 11 million dollar donation). It might be a better use of our time to start thinking about the ramifications of UCF leaving the Citrus Bowl and how best to proceed in the aftermath of UCF leaving.

Finally, this may be urban blasphemy to you, but some of us are not yet convinced that stadiums add all that much to the urban experience. I'm not arguing that sports aren't important things for a city to have, but I'm not convinced that it's an entirely bad thing for a stadium to be out in the burbs (transportation might be the biggest problem with building stadiums out in the burbs). I love sports, but many, many stadiums are really just unused and ugly parking lots most days of the year (in this sense, they closely resemble suburban strip malls with gigantic parking lots). Having said this, I do believe there are some examples of urban stadium proposals that are outstanding. One example is Frank Gehry's proposal for a stadium for the Nets in Brooklyn. You can read about it here: http://www.metropolismag.com/cda/story.php?artid=33

Despite my ambivalence towards the desirability of most urban stadiums, I almost certainly would support any serious proposal to bring an NFL team to downtown Orlando.

[demon]

I remeber taking a UCF tour about a year ago and they said the new stadium design would be built like a castle, complete with a moat. I hope the new cheaper design still includes this. I wouldn't want a cookie cutter stadium.

I think a stadium on campus is really the best move for UCF. For those of you whose critique is that since UCF didn't win any games last year they don't deserve a new stadium I'd like to point out that a new on campus stadium would help recruit better players. UCF should be in the business of bettering UCF and it's priority should not be downtown. Remember that if the Citrus Bowl does get some sprucing up UCF wouldn't have anywhere to play for the 2006 season.

[GreenHills]

I remeber taking a UCF tour about a year ago and they said the new stadium design would be built like a castle, complete with a moat. I hope the new cheaper design still includes this. I wouldn't want a cookie cutter stadium.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not sure how cool the whole castle and moat thing would be. I'm sure UCF would get teased with comparisons to the Magic Kingdom and Disney. Seriously though, I've heard the nickname for the stadium is going to be "the Dungeon" just like UF's nickname for their stadium is "the Swamp."

On another note, is it any surprise that UCF is thinking about moving on-campus when so many people respond to UCF's interest in building a stadium with comments like: (1) UCF's team stinks and how dare they think about building a stadium on-campus, and (2) why do these students at this uppity commuter school think they should get to have a stadium like students at a "real" university. Is it any surprise that the UCF community's response is to blow these people off?

[sunshine]

From today Orlando Sentinel

UCF stadium backer is big-time booster

The unknown "Mr. X" behind a re-energized plan to build a stadium on the University of Central Florida campus is Jerry Roth, a local pharmaceutical-company owner and an avid football fan.

Roth, a very private but prolific supporter of UCF athletics, said he saw steel stadiums at other schools that abandoned traditional concrete frameworks, and thought bringing one to UCF could create revenue and boost attendance for the football program.

"This is a good business deal for the university," said Roth, 58. "This is a moneymaker."

News that the university is seriously pursuing Roth's idea has knocked over a set of political dominoes as the city of Orlando considers costly renovations to the Florida Citrus Bowl without one of its longest and biggest-name tenants: the UCF Golden Knights football team.

If all the pieces fall into place -- and area traffic and environmental concerns don't get in the way -- a UCF quarterback could take his first snap on a campus stadium field in 2006.

It's not clear exactly when, but Roth said during the fall that he started floating his steel-stadium idea to top school officials after picking up the concept from similarly styled projects at Ohio State University and Virginia Tech.

It's a much cheaper alternative -- at $35 million to $45 million -- than concrete designs priced at two to three times as much, Roth said.

And, like University of Central Florida President John Hitt, Roth agrees that ticket sales and other stadium revenue would allow it to largely pay for itself over time.

Roth is among a small circle of major boosters to the UCF football program. He was in the loop when new coach George O'Leary was hired, and he has flown with the team to games.

Roth, who never attended UCF, said he started giving money to the university after a neighbor hit him up to support its athletics program.

That neighbor turned out to be then-UCF athletic director Jack O'Leary.

"I saw UCF building a business," said Roth, a Longwood resident. "And I said, 'I want to be a part of it.' "

Hitt said that he has known Roth for more than a decade, but the two have become closer in the past few years. "Jerry's a very good businessman," Hitt said.

Roth is the founder and owner of Hill Dermaceuticals Inc., a Sanford-based pharmaceutical company that specializes in developing dermatology products.

In UCF's 2004 football game programs, Hill Dermaceuticals is listed as an "AD's Circle" donor -- one of just nine the program listed. That is the top level of giving.

Neither Roth nor Hitt would say how much that giving has amounted to, or what Roth is considering as a pledge toward the stadium effort.

But Roth said that, despite rumors to the contrary, he has not made any multimillion-dollar pledge to get his idea off the ground.

Still, UCF officials are clearly handing him the credit for reigniting a long-held dream at the school -- one that has lighted up UCF message boards from supporters on the Internet.

"If a stadium happens, it's because of him," UCF Board of Trustees Chairman Dick Nunis said. "He deserves all the credit."

[sunshine]

It will be good to built it like the stadium of Harry Potter.

[FLClarkKent]

It will be good to built it like the stadium of Harry Potter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

IF UCF gets a Quidditch team, I'll buy season tickets.

What exactly is a "steel stadium" anyway? To me, that conjures up images of the rickety, rusty football bleachers we had at my high school in Alabama. I'm assuming this is not the case? I'd like to know what examples this guy is talking about.

[GreenHills]

The Sentinel has now endorsed UCF's stadium plan. It should now be completly obvious to everyone that UCF is serious about building this stadium and that it's not just some ploy to get out of having to pay for part of the Citrus Bowl renovation. I'm also glad to see the editorial is receptive to the idea of Orlando pursuing an NFL team. It's also great to see that Dyer recognizes the benefits of an on-campus stadium for UCF. Hopefully, the Mayor can come up with a proposal to lure an NFL franchise that we all can support.

Editorial: Pursue stadium

Our position: It makes good sense for UCF to build a football stadium on campus.

January 7, 2005

The University of Central Florida surprised some people this week when it announced it might build a football stadium on campus in time for the 2006 season.

UCF put off the idea as unaffordable just a couple of years ago, but a new, much-less-expensive design has revived the possibility.

Despite predictable complaints from the usual opponents of new development and investments in athletics at UCF, university leaders would be foolish not to pursue this intriguing prospect.

UCF is one of a small minority of NCAA Division I-A football schools without an on-campus stadium. It plays its home games at the Florida Citrus Bowl in downtown Orlando. But most of the other schools without their own stadiums are urban universities without available land. That's not a problem for UCF.

A stadium at UCF within walking distance of at least a third of its 44,000 students would enhance campus life. It would make the football team a better draw for top high-school prospects, which would help the university realize its goal of building a top-tier program. It would hasten UCF's evolution from a commuter college to a nationally prominent university.

Any plan for a stadium at UCF should minimize as much as possible harm to the environment and traffic problems. But these are issues that scores of other universities have confronted and managed.

As for money, UCF has said it would not use state dollars to cover the estimated $35 million to $45 million cost of an on-campus stadium. Instead, the tab would be financed with donations, ticket sales and concession revenues.

Football teams, especially winners, attract national attention to universities. That brings more applicants and more money. Ultimately, that enhances rather than undercuts academic programs.

The University of Florida has paid top dollar to build and maintain its football program, but its academics are not suffering. UF currently has more National Merit Scholars than any other public university in the country.

Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer said he would prefer that UCF continue to play its home games in the Citrus Bowl, but he is practical enough to concede the benefits that UCF would gain from an on-campus stadium. So, too, is Orange County Mayor Rich Crotty.

UCF's move into an on-campus football stadium would take away about five games a year from the Citrus Bowl. That would lessen the urgency for Orlando and Orange County to move ahead on a $50 million-plus plan to upgrade the nearly 70-year-old facility.

But a possible move by UCF is no excuse for the city and county to let the Citrus Bowl deteriorate. It still hosts two football bowl games and the annual Florida Classic.

Mr. Dyer and Mr. Crotty should be ready to upgrade the Citrus Bowl if UCF decides not to build on campus, or if other opportunities -- such as an NFL team or more college games -- become available.

[Brickell]

Unless the area has seriously densified in the last few years, I don't see how that many people can be within "walking distance". The campus is big and sprawling. The roads are not pedestrian friendly. There was very little urbanism at all last time i was there.

1/3 of the students?

[firemick]

That STEEL stadium idea will be great during the florida lightning storms! With all kidding aside. I really dont care if they play in the citrus bowl or have theyr'e new stadium.....i just hope if they do it, THEY DO IT RIGHT!!!! I hope if they build, they build it big initially and not play catch up like the Central Florida Roadways (i.e. i-4). 40,000- 50, 000 is abit small. I know that UF upgraded the SWAMP but it cost alot of money to do, which UF has an abundance of.

[GreenHills]

Unless the area has seriously densified in the last few years, I don't see how that many people can be within "walking distance".  The campus is big and sprawling.  The roads are not pedestrian friendly.  There was very little urbanism at all last time i was there.

1/3 of the students?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not sure how they reach the 15,000 students within walking distance figure either. I doubt it's really true unless they are including students who are within the school's shuttle service, who thus could get to the stadium without having to drive (although this isn't really walking). I googled a little bit to try and find out how they arrived at this figure, but I couldn't find any explanation. The closest thing I could find was a breakdown of on campus and affiliated housing (On Campus-3,759, Greeks-418, Affiliated Housing-3,756).

On another note, I had earlier criticized most urban stadiums but I'm watching the Seahawks/Rams playoff game and Seattle's stadium looks really nice. The skyline is very visible and looks so good that I keep looking at the skyline rather than game (which I don't think is a bad thing). The architecture of the stadium also looks very good. If you're not watching the game, there are some pictures in another one of the forums: http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=4719

[sunshine]

Orlando should get a clue from UCF's plansJohn Hitt for Orlando Mayor.

Steve Orsini for Orange County Mayor.

Then maybe we could get some things done around here.

Instead, our real politicians -- Mayor Buddy Dyer and Orange County Mayor Rich Crotty -- haggle over this, argue over that and talk, talk, talk about how Orlando might need to renovate its football stadium; possibly, perhaps, perchance might need a new basketball arena; and wouldn't it be nice to build a new downtown baseball park?

Meanwhile, Hitt and Orsini -- the president and athletic director at UCF -- don't babble about such things. They build them.

A new baseball complex opened at UCF three years ago, a new basketball arena is scheduled to open in two years, and, now, UCF is moving toward plans to build the granddaddy of them all: A new on-campus football stadium.

Some city and county officials are trying to lay a guilt trip on UCF, saying the school's stadium blueprint all but kills plans of making significant renovations to the Citrus Bowl. They're kidding, right? What plan did Orlando really have, except a bunch of political pipe dreaming? If the city actually had had a tangible Citrus Bowl strategy and had presented it to UCF, maybe the school wouldn't have been so quick to pursue its own stadium.

Memo to Dyer and Crotty: UCF is the first major sports team with plans to move out of downtown because of an aging venue. Will the Magic be next?

UCF owes the city nothing. Hitt and Orsini are doing what they think is best for their football program, and that's exactly what they should do. What's laughable is that politicians are using UCF's potential departure as an excuse not to renovate the Citrus Bowl. Conveniently, the politicians have somebody to blame. Suddenly, UCF's football program has become important to them.

UCF's plans should have nothing to do with the county spending tourist-tax money to refurbish the Citrus Bowl. UCF plays five football games a year at the Citrus Bowl, and the school has minimal impact on the tourism industry.

What draws tourists into town are two bowl games -- the highly successful Capital One Bowl and the emerging Champs Sports Bowl. What draws tourists into town is the Florida Classic -- the lucrative annual football game between Florida A&M and Bethune-Cookman. What draws tourists into town is the Atlantic Coast Conference Championship Game, which Orlando might have attracted if it had a halfway decent stadium.

Instead, Jacksonville got the ACC game. But, then again, Jacksonville cares about being a sports town. Even before Jacksonville was awarded an NFL franchise, the city in 1993 spent $50 million to renovate the aging Gator Bowl to avoid losing the annual Florida-Georgia game.

Now our leaders face a similar decision. Are they willing to spend money on the stadium to keep the Capital One Bowl as the nation's top non-BCS bowl? Big Ten Commissioner Jim Delany and SEC Commissioner Michael Slive have put the Capital One Bowl on notice: If the stadium is not upgraded, the Capital One's spot in the bowl pecking order likely will be downgraded.

Just as other cities with better arenas are in the market for NBA franchises, other cities with better stadiums are also in the market for lucrative football games. The Peach Bowl drools over the Capital One's SEC-Big Ten matchup. And when the Florida Classic's contract with Orlando is up, you better believe Jacksonville is going to go hard after the game.

UCF already decided to take its ball and go home.

What's even scarier is that the Magic, the Capital One Bowl and the Florida Classic might decide to take their balls and go away.

Mike Bianchi can be reached at [email protected].

[sunshine]

The University of Central Florida's plan to build a football stadium on campus is the latest blow to Orlando's hopes to renovate the aging Florida Citrus Bowl, vital to the city's push for a revitalized downtown, according to government, sports and tourism insiders.

But the Citrus Bowl's loss could boost the Orlando Magic's hopes for a new basketball arena.

Orange County Mayor Rich Crotty, whose support is crucial to squeezing money from the county's tourist tax to build or refurbish sports venues, raised new doubts that he could muster the political support for Citrus Bowl renovations if the stadium loses its home team.

"There's a whole kind of circumstantial case that's building up against the Citrus Bowl," Crotty said.

It is the furthest Crotty has gone in questioning the rationale of spending as much as $150 million to fix the 69-year-old Citrus Bowl.

If Crotty is going to fight the political battle to spend more of the county's tourist tax on sports, he would rather do so on an arena to keep the National Basketball Association's Magic in Orlando. Insiders contacted by the Orlando Sentinel say taking on the powerful tourist lobby for a run-down stadium that already has been bypassed by college football's Bowl Championship Series and has failed to secure the Atlantic Coast Conference championship is a much harder sell without UCF on board.

Crotty says having both a UCF stadium and renovated Citrus Bowl is not "beyond the realm of possibility." But he added that the downtown stadium is "not as high a priority as it was two weeks ago."

"My top priority is holding on to the Magic," Crotty said.

Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer has pinned much of his campaign to reinvigorate downtown on a refurbished Citrus Bowl along with a new or remodeled basketball arena and a new performing-arts center.

Dyer said he still thinks the Citrus Bowl is a better option for UCF than a prefabricated, 45,000-seat stadium on campus. But he stressed that renovations shouldn't be contingent on whether the Golden Knights call the downtown stadium home.

Dyer doesn't have the money to do it without help from Crotty. And the relationship between the two leaders was seriously strained during an annexation fight last month.

"I still believe there will be renovations, in cooperation with the city and the county," Dyer said. "This might change the direction of what the renovations will be."

Dyer envisions a "world-class" downtown stadium, drawing UCF students, alumni and fans to the city's core and cash-happy tourists for major bowl games.

UCF rocked those plans last week when school leaders revealed they are moving toward their own $40 million stadium. A facility once thought to be unaffordable -- and at least a decade away -- could be in place for the 2006 football season.

School officials think an on-campus stadium would help them draw more students to games, as many as 15,000 of the 43,000 who attend the university. A home on campus, they say, would help them build tradition, recruit top athletes and boost alumni giving.

"We don't have that great name or tradition to draw, so we need all the pluses we can get," UCF President John Hitt said.

Hitt added that he didn't think a UCF stadium should have any impact on whether the Citrus Bowl is renovated.

"I don't think we ought to be a major factor," Hitt said. "I don't see how we would spoil the possibilities."

The Citrus Bowl is owned by the city, which leases it out for various events. UCF leases it for its home games. The Florida Classic between Bethune-Cookman College and Florida A&M University and two bowl games are put on by Florida Citrus Sports, a local nonprofit organization.

The organization's offices are at the stadium.

A UCF stadium flies in the face of Citrus Bowl backers' long-standing plans to rebuild their stadium to make it more attractive to top-flight events, from college football championship games to a National Football League franchise, Florida Citrus Sports members say.

The Knights, who have played home games at the stadium for 26 years, are the venue's only home team. UCF's continued use of the stadium is a political selling point for renovation.

"It would be more difficult [without UCF]," said state Sen. Lee Constantine, R-Altamonte Springs, a UCF alumnus who has helped guide funding projects through the state Legislature.

In addition to the Florida Classic, the sports association stages two bowl games annually. The Champs Sports Bowl matches a team from the Atlantic Coast Conference against one from the Big 12 Conference.

Its hallmark game is the Capital One Bowl, a New Year's Day game that matches the second-best team from the Southeastern Conference against the No. 2 team from the Big Ten Conference.

Without the renovations, Orlando risks losing the high-profile games.

SEC Commissioner Mike Slive and Big Ten Commissioner Jim Delany warned association members last year that their long-term commitment to the popular Jan. 1 game hinges on a better Citrus Bowl.

"Commissioner Slive walked in last week, and the first thing he said was, 'I just came from Tampa [where he was watching the Outback Bowl]. Wow, is that a nice stadium,' " FCS Executive Director Tom Mickle said, alluding to Tampa's 7-year-old Raymond James Stadium. "He wasn't making a threat, but he was getting his message across."

Few think Orlando can support two football stadiums -- particularly without an NFL franchise and for a UCF program that hasn't won a game since October 2003. The Knights were 0-11 last season.

Dyer is in no position to fight UCF. He has no authority over the school. The city and UCF already are involved in other high-profile partnerships, such as the opening of a digital-media academy downtown.

There are also a growing number of powerful UCF alumni around town -- including Crotty.

"UCF is bigger than the Citrus Bowl," said state Rep. David Simmons, R-Longwood.

And a stadium at UCF presents real political advantages for Crotty.

Any expanded use of the tourist tax will require approval from the County Commission, and that can't happen without Crotty's strong support. If the push to remodel the Citrus Bowl loses steam, Crotty said it frees up more money for an Orlando Magic arena.

The tourist tax generated $111 million last year. That money can be used only to promote tourism and pay for sports and cultural facilities. Most of that is consumed by the Orange County Convention Center and the Orlando/Orange County Convention & Visitors Bureau.

Despite his pointed comments to the contrary, Crotty insists he's not close to making any decisions. He said he has ordered his staff to study tourist-tax options, which could take "weeks or months."

Crotty also said he thinks it may be possible to renovate the TD Waterhouse Centre without raising the tax.

UCF needs to finish studying its stadium plan, he said.

"There's a lot of complicated evaluation that has to take place," Crotty said.

It's not as if Hitt hasn't considered a football stadium before, but he thought it was too expensive. A 2002 analysis pegged the cost at more than $100 million.

"Dr. Hitt's message to me was we'll eventually have a stadium, but not while we're here," UCF Athletic Director Steve Orsini said. "And that really, until very recently, has been the time frame."

"Very recently" happened in late October. The Knights went to Huntington, W.Va., for a Mid-American Conference game. Before the game, Marshall Athletic Director Bob Marcum showed off an end-zone expansion from 2000.

Orsini liked what he saw. He was intrigued by an expansion built not piece by piece but chunk by prefabricated chunk -- and dumbstruck by Marshall's cost: $2.5 million.

Two weeks later, en route to the Ball State football game, Hitt and other top UCF officials heard a pitch for the new stadium on the private jet of booster Jerry Roth, founder and owner of Sanford-based Hill Dermaceuticals Inc.

Later, a representative from Dant Clayton, a Louisville, Ky.-based firm that did the work for Marshall and specializes in stadium additions and renovations, estimated UCF could build its on-campus stadium for $40 million to $45 million.

Wheels began turning for Orsini -- a former Notre Dame fullback -- for Hitt -- a former athlete at Austin College -- and for powerful UCF Board of Trustees Chairman Dick Nunis -- a former football player at Southern California.

According to sources close to Hitt and Orsini, the new price tag triggered a snowball effect that now finds the athletic director working full-bore to make the stadium a reality.

Last week school officials said funding would come from donors, ticket sales, concession sales and parking. Hitt said a handful of boosters have already indicated that they will offer a seven-figure donation toward building a new stadium.

One plan calls for a 3,000-car garage earmarked for students or staffers willing to pay $1,200 a year for a reserved spot on campus.

"I think it's always been on the lips of a lot of people," said football coach George O'Leary, adding that an on-campus stadium was never discussed during his hiring in December 2003. "People who have been to places before with a lot of tradition understand the benefit of an excited atmosphere around a stadium and what it brings to a campus. There's no comparison."

There's also a financial advantage. Right now, UCF pays Orlando roughly $50,000 each game to rent the Citrus Bowl, depending on how many ticket it sells, plus staffing costs, Hitt said. The school has limited control of parking revenues and gets nothing from concession sales.

People familiar with the arrangement also say that through the years UCF simmered at treatment from the city. A combination of things -- inconsistent field conditions, belated sound checks for the band and cheerleaders, spotty scoreboards, traffic and parking problems -- added up to the point where the renter wanted to own.

UCF officials insist complaints are overblown.

"Dr. Hitt said it right: We've played down there, and they've been good to us," O'Leary said, "but you still want a place where you're not a tenant."

Not everyone is convinced a UCF stadium would doom Citrus Bowl upgrades -- namely Dyer and Florida Citrus Sports, which stages the three major games at the stadium.

Citrus Bowl backers insist those three games -- and the possibility of luring other lucrative events, such as games between the universities of Florida and Miami -- make renovating their stadium worth the price tag even without the Golden Knights.

But even they acknowledge UCF's departure hurts. And they're already trying to woo the school back.

"I think they would be very open to other options, but the work's got to be done. They've got to be approached," FCS' Mickle said. "The argument is that one world-class facility is better than two mediocre facilities -- one that will need continuous dollars for renovation or expansion."

[bobliocatt]

If UCF builds a stadium on campus, then the city should just focus on building a new arena to keep the Magic, because with Florida already having 3 successful NFL franchises, Orlando doesn't have a snow balls chance in hell of attracting a NFL team to the Citrus Bowl, no matter how much money they throw at it.

[GreenHills]

If UCF builds a stadium on campus, then the city should just focus on building a new arena to keep the Magic, because with Florida already having 3 successful NFL franchises, Orlando doesn't have a snow balls chance in hell of attracting a NFL team to the Citrus Bowl, no matter how much money they throw at it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lakelander,

Although you might be correct about Orlando's chances of getting an NFL team, if you compare the Orlando/Tampa/Miami/Jax region to other NFL regions with four teams, you can make a reasonable argument that Orlando should at least be considered for a team. First, consider the largest markets without an NFL team. LA is by far the largest market without a team (2nd largest market overall). Next are Sac. and Orlando (19th and 20th largest markets overall). Other large markets without teams include Portland (24th), Hartford (27th), and Raleigh-Durham (29th). After the top 30 markets, most markets do not have teams (which isn't surprising considering there are only 31 teams). So based on size alone, LA is the most obvious choice, but Orlando is certainly large enough to warrant further consideration.

Even though Orlando may be a large enough market to support an NFL franchise based on size alone, Orlando's greatest hurdle in getting a team would be the close proximity of three other teams (as Lakelander pointed out). However, when compared to at least two other regions with four teams, it appears that Florida could support a fourth team. To compare regions, I picked a city with a team that was fairly close to three other teams, and compared driving distance and total market size. First, is the Orlando/Tampa/Miami/Jax region. Distances are driving distance from Orlando. Orlando-Tampa 84.6 miles, Orlando-Miami-236.5 miles, and Orlando-Jax-140.8 miles. The market sizes of this region are: Orlando-20th (1.189 percent of the United States population), Tampa-13th (1.525%), Miami-17th (1.366%), and Jacksonville-52nd (0.559%). Overall, these markets reach 4.639% of the US population (and 5.304% if you include West Palm).

Next, I looked at Cleveland and compared distance and market size to Detroit, Buffalo and Pittsburgh. Driving distance: Clev.-Det.-168.9, Clev.-Pitt-132.4, and Clev.-Buff.-193.4. Market size: Clev.-16th (1.420%), Det.-10th (1.774%), Buff.-46th (.595%), and Pitts.-22nd (1.082%). Overall, these markets reach 4.871% of the US population. Also, consider that many of these cities are in the rust belt and are not experiencing anywhere near the population growth that we are seeing in Orlando, Tampa, Miami, and Jax.

Next, I looked at Indianapolis and compared distance and market size to Cincinnati, Chicago, and St. Louis. Driving distance: Ind.-Cin-113.4, Ind. Chic.-180.7, and Ind.-St. Louis-241.7. Market Size: Ind.-25th (.961%), Cinc.-33rd (.806), Chicago-3 (3.118) and St. Louis-21st (1.110). Overall, these markets reach 5.995% of the US population. However, you have to consider that Chicago makes up over half the size of the market and that Orlando, Tampa and Miami are all larger than Cinc., St. Louis, and Indy.

I still think it's an uphill battle, but after thinking about this and looking at some of the numbers I think Orlando can make a stronger case than one would initially expect.

By the way, I got the distance figures from Yahoo maps and the tv market numbers from a 2004-2005 Nielson's list that can be found at: http://www.lostremote.com/story/nielsen_markets_2004.htm