Downtown Memphis

[DallasTexan]

oooooooooooooooo.

Sorry, it's Friday, I feel like being stupid

[sleepy]

For one...you left out a couple of Nashville burbs with your income comparison:

Forest Hills - $124,845 - population 4,710

Green Hill (CDP) - $62,690 - population 7,068

Mount Juliet - $58,600 - population 12,366

Oak Hill - $90,174 - population 4,493

Davidson County PER CAPITA income - $23,069

Shelby County PER CAPITA income - $20,856

*Williamson County PER CAPITA income - $32,496

*highest in state

Nashville has 279 $1million+ homes by itself, along with 350 in Belle Meade, 167 in Forest Hills (more than Brentwood's 157), and 105 in Oak Hill for a Davidson county total of 901 $1million+ homes.

Memphis has 299 $1million+ homes by itself, along with 93 in Germantown, and 15 in Lakeland for a total of 407...but I couldn't find any stats for unincorporated areas of Shelby county...however, I kind of doubt that there are 500+ in those areas. (Shelby county would need 1,372 county wide to equal Davidson's percentage).

If you want to argue the 'money' battle between the two metros, you are fighting an uphill battle.

[nashvol85]

I had no intention when I chimed in this thread to "to argue the 'money' battle between the two metros."

My intention was to dispute the notion that the wealth of the state is somehow concentrated in Nashville--which I believe one poster said--and that Memphis is "in decline" and poor, which a poster implied.

In fact, wealth is spread all around the state.  You can go the BLA site, and the highest wages and salaries in the State are in Memphis.  On the downside is the fact that Memphis' unemployment rate is double Nashville's.  So, if you don't have a job . . . .

When we talk about Nashville and the rest of Tennessee, we're not talking about Manhattan and Upstate New York, nor when we talk about Nashville and Memphis, we're not talking about Manhattan and the South Bronx.

I didn't throw in smaller burbs in either city, although I presumed that Forest Hills and Green Hills were part of the city of Nashville to begin with and were included in Nashville-Davidson stats, although Memphis has at least two other incorporated suburbs above $55,000, in addition to wealthy unincorporated Shelby County.

As far as per-capita income goes, that's usually a function of the number of children in a family, and the age of the population.  East Shelby County still attracts young couples with kids.  I would speculate that Rutherford might well have a high median family income, and a relatively low per-capita reason for the same reason.

In terms of schools I stand by what I said--compare the stats with Shelby County as a whole, including Memphis, with Davidson County.  Stats between Nashville and Memphis in education are comparing a county-wide system with an innercity system.  And that's fine, because they are politically distinct entities.  But it does give an inaccurate impression.

The only data I was able to come up with from Sept., 2004:

Knox County has 13 of 81 schools that are monitored under NCLB designated as high priority schools.  This is 15.1% of our schools. 

Metro Nashville has 38 of 127 schools designated high priority or 29.9%.

Memphis has 67 of 185 schools that are designated high priority or 36.2%.

The number of schools designated as high priority in Tennessee is 12%.

http://www.kcs.k12tn.net/supernewsletter/V...newsletter.html

Again, throw in Shelby County's 45,000 students into the mix, and Memphis-Shelby may well have a rate lower than Nashville-Davidson's.  Does that mean the Memphis schools got better?  Or Nashville's got worse?  Of course not.

But even without that, clearly if Memphis schools are "terrible", Nashville's are pretty bad.  And I'm not knocking Nashville, just certain assumptions vis a vis the two cities.

I don't have a clue about home prices in Shelby County, but unincorporated Shelby County has a good 130,000 people, most of whom are rich as Croesus.  Are there 500, million dollar homes there?  I doubt it.

In terms of crime, I agree with you--that was my point, you really can't compare Memphis and Nashville-Davidson--which is the stat that's used--although you can compare Memphis-Shelby and Nashville-Davidson and, again, certain crime assumptions about Memphis and Nashville may not look so accurate.

Here's a concentration of wealth which is unfortunate for Memphis, as compared to Nashville--the fact that wealth is more unevenly concentrated with whites than blacks in Memphis (comments about unemployment, above):

county median household income:

Davidson--white:  43,589, black: 29,476

Shelby--white:  51,551, black:  28,354

metro area

Nashville--white: 47,228, black:  30,101

Memphis--white:  50,314, black:  27,809

So, there's  wealth in Memphis, it's just not shared as equitably as Nashville.

I have no knock against Nashville at all.  I lived there for several years and enjoyed it.  I do however, have a knock against inaccurate assumptions that people make when comparing the two cities.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay...I get your point. You are right...Nashville isn't head and shoulders above the rest of the state (although I do think it has a decent advantage in a lot of things). That's what I like about Tennessee in general...there are 4 large cities spread across the state rather than one or two giant metros.

Of course we can always manipulate statistics when comparing cities...so I'll just make a point with your average income stats...while Shelby county as a whole has higher average income for white people, there is a vast differences between the racial makeup of the two counties/two cities. Nashville is 65% white (359,581 people) and 27% black (146,235 people). Memphis (city) is 34% white (223,728 people) and 61% black (399,208 people)...Shelby county (without Memphis) has 36,604 black people and 201,135 white people (about 84% white, 14% black).

Once again...with the Metro government, it is hard to compare statistics between Memphis and Davidson county or Shelby county and Davidson county.

I understand that you made your post in regard to someone else...so I'll just leave it with this...both are great cities.

[sleepy]

Of course we can always manipulate statistics when comparing cities...so I'll just make a point with your average income stats...while Shelby county as a whole has higher average income for white people, there is a vast differences between the racial makeup of the two counties/two cities.

[nashvol85]

My stats on income were for Shelby County including Memphis, not Shelby County excluding Memphis.  My stats have always done that.

I didn't "carve out" wealthy Shelby county outside of Memphis and compare it to Davidson, if that's what you meant by manipulating stats. 

I wasn't comparing Memphis with Davidson County, only the whole of Shelby with the whole of Davidson.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not trying to disprove your point about how the two cities are closer than a lot of people think. I'm just saying that it's hard to compare either Shelby or Davidson counties. Shelby county outside of Memphis has about 250,000 people, whereas Davidson county outside of Nashville has about 30,000 people. Davidson county IS Nashville....Shelby county has a lot of big time suburbs outside of Memphis.

[doormanpoet]

Unfortunately the race card is always a divider between Nashville and Memphis. I was told by someone in the Nashville Sports Council several years ago that Memphis was too poor and black for an NFL team. The average black family in Memphis could not afford a psl or tickets. Then Mayor Bredesen gave the Grizzlies to Memphis to pacify them. Bredesen thought two major league teams was enough and to "mend fences" with Memphis was to ask the NBA to locate there because more blacks watch the NBA than whites, and because the NFL, NHL or MLB would never consider Memphis.

[satalac]

Unfortunately the race card is always a divider between Nashville and Memphis. I was told by someone in the Nashville Sports Council several years ago that Memphis was too poor and black for an NFL team. The average black family in Memphis could not afford a psl or tickets.  Then Mayor Bredesen gave the Grizzlies to Memphis to pacify them. Bredesen thought two major league teams was enough and to "mend fences" with Memphis was to ask the NBA to locate there because more blacks watch the NBA than whites, and because the NFL, NHL or MLB would never consider Memphis.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i highly doubt that GOV. bredesen GAVE the grizzlies to memphis. i think memphis simply fit the need of the nba. they have always had a history with basketball and has a big fan base for it. i find it to be the perfect fit for them. plus, nashville is a better centrally located city for the nfl. to draw 67,000 fans, you'll need to be able to pull them from the surrounding counties and states.

[sleepy]

Unfortunately the race card is always a divider between Nashville and Memphis. I was told by someone in the Nashville Sports Council several years ago that Memphis was too poor and black for an NFL team. The average black family in Memphis could not afford a psl or tickets.

[nashvol85]

Memphis might have either gotten an expansion team or possibly lured a team from another city to move there if they had shown support for the Oilers when they were in town for a brief amount of time. Instead of filling the stands with 60,000 supporters and trying to prove that they deserved a franchise, they seemed to be so bitter that Nashville was getting the team that they didn't bother showing up for the games. For a lot of games, there were only 15-25,000 people there...and some of those were supporters driving down from Nashville and/or other places.

Memphis has ruined its chance at getting a NFL franchise for at least the next 10-15 years.

[doormanpoet]

That is basically part of my point. Memphis has always resented Nashville. The sports council person meant that the median income among Memphis which is majority black was low compared to Nashville.

Bredesen did refuse basketball as did Purcell with the Expo's. I wish I could find the Tennessean articles at the time the NBA looked at Nashville. The NBA had pre-season games at Vandy and they were always a sellout. Nashvilles rich basketball tradition enticed the NBA. Vandy had good basketball along with Libscomp, Belmont and MTSU.

If you notice the state flag with three stars, that was for the three states of Tennessee, or the three territories. East, Middle, and West Tennessee have always had an invisible wall. Nashville and Memphis have always competed and sport and education were always in the forefront.

As a matter of useless information, the tri-cities have an advertising saying that says: "Tennessee does not stop in Knoxville."

The tri-cities get neglected a lot because of Knoxville and the University of Tennessee.

[satalac]

Satalac--You're correct that Memphis is a great basketball city, though I'm not sure what "centrally located" means.  I think drawing 65,000 fans to 8 football games isn't that tough a sell in most of the South.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

what i meant was that nashville is closer to other big cities than memphis is. it's easier to get people from all over the state to come to nashville than to go to memphis. just think of the drive for people in knoxville if they wanted to go to a titan's game in memphis. nashville is just easier for people from memphis, knoxville, and chattanooga to get to. cities the sizes of nashville and memphis need the help of other cities to pull in the numbers for nfl games.

[sleepy]

Memphis might have either gotten an expansion team or possibly lured a team from another city to move there if they had shown support for the Oilers when they were in town for a brief amount of time.  Instead of filling the stands with 60,000 supporters and trying to prove that they deserved a franchise, they seemed to be so bitter that Nashville was getting the team that they didn't bother showing up for the games.  For a lot of games, there were only 15-25,000 people there...and some of those were supporters driving down from Nashville and/or other places. 

Memphis has ruined its chance at getting a NFL franchise for at least the next 10-15 years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My comments about the NFL were directed at the silly statement that Memphis was "too poor and black" to support an NFL team, not at the merits of Memphis-Nashville getting a team.

I'm glad Nashville has the Titans, but you throw out a lot of disinformation.

Memphis was bitter at the NFL, not Nashville.

By the time the Oilers played in Memphis, the city was no longer seeking an NFL team, and felt used and not particularly motivated to support a temporary team that was using the city as a parking space. Any relocation, expansion efforts had been disbanded by 1992.

And when a franchise was awarded to Nashville, the odds of the state ever having two NFL teams were zero.

Earlier, when the NFL played exhibitions there, the place was sold out.

And while Memphis averaged 28,000 for the Oilers, Nashville averaged only 37,000 in its first season, in a stadium that seated 41,000--and that was for a home team.

That is basically part of my point. Memphis has always resented Nashville. The sports council person meant that the median income among Memphis which is majority black was low compared to Nashville.

Bredesen did refuse basketball as did Purcell with the Expo's. I wish I could find the Tennessean articles at the time the NBA looked at Nashville. The NBA had pre-season games at Vandy and they were always a sellout. Nashvilles rich basketball tradition enticed the NBA. Vandy had good basketball along with Libscomp, Belmont and MTSU.

What exactly is your point? The only resentment was with the NFL, not Nashville.

Regarding poor and black--that's not what you said earlier. And I stand by my stats, and my characterization of the Nashville sports council member as ill-informed.

Apparently, it's part of your mindset to think of Memphis as too poor and too black for much of anything. And now that Memphis has an NBA team, apparently it's important for you to believe that Memphis got the team as an act of largesse from Nashville.

I never hear anyone from Memphis characterizing Nashville with the stereotypes of hillybilly, and if they did, I'm sure you would beg to disagree. Yet, you feel perfectly comfortable doing the same with Memphis.

I sure wish you could find that article, particularly the one where Purcell "refused" the Expos. Any mayor can say they're disinterested in a particular sports franchise. It doesn't mean it's being considered for one.

what i meant was that nashville is closer to other big cities than memphis is. it's easier to get people from all over the state to come to nashville than to go to memphis. just think of the drive for people in knoxville if they wanted to go to a titan's game in memphis. nashville is just easier for people from memphis, knoxville, and chattanooga to get to. cities the sizes of nashville and memphis need the help of other cities to pull in the numbers for nfl games.

Memphis uses other states for its sports market--Little Rock, Jackson MS, western KY, southern MO--St. Louis has a Grizzlies radio station.

[satalac]

 

Memphis uses other states for its sports market--Little Rock, Jackson MS, western KY, southern MO--St. Louis has a Grizzlies radio station.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

nashville does also. they pull a decent amount of people from alabama and especially kentucky. i just think that nashville is a better central location for the state of tennessee, where it is more likely to have fans. st. louis only has a grizzlies radio station because the city doesn't have a basketball team. either way, pro sports in the state of tennessee is a lot better than it used to be. i'm glad that nashville got the titans and predators, and that memphis got the grizzlies. i think they all fit very well.

[nashvol85]

nashville does also. they pull a decent amount of people from alabama and especially kentucky. i just think that nashville is a better central location for the state of tennessee, where it is more likely to have fans. st. louis only has a grizzlies radio station because the city doesn't have a basketball team. either way, pro sports in the state of tennessee is a lot better than it used to be. i'm glad that nashville got the titans and predators, and that memphis got the grizzlies. i think they all fit very well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly. I went to a lot of Predators games last year (26), and I met a considerable number of people who were season ticket holders from both Bowling Green, Ky and Huntsville, Al. I also agree with your statement about the different teams 'fitting in well'. I don't think that either city could support a MLB team right now...but at present, Memphis would probably get the first look.

[rocket9561]

Just FYI Sleepy, Nashville richest areas are not included in Nashville-Davidson. Belle Meade, Oak Hill, Forrest Hills, Berry Hill, Old Hickory, Lakeview, and Goodlettsville are seperate from "metro" in the census. The cities are semi-autonomous keeping any services they provided before consolidation.

[DallasTexan]

Berry Hill is rich?

[rocket9561]

Berry Hill is rich?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was listing the indie cities of Davidson county as a whole which do include the wealthiest parts of the County in Belle Meade, Forrest Hills, and Oak Hill. Goodlettsville is a fairly large town and has some extremely wealthy areas.

From the census

Median Family Income:

Davidson County: 51,764

Belle Meade 194,016

Forest Hills: 154,148

Oak Hill: 104,952

Ridgetop: 57,589 (partially in Davidson)

Goodlettsville: 54,159

Nashville: 51,055

Lakewood: 46,964

Berry Hill: 43,636

Old Hickory: 38,202

[sleepy]

Just FYI Sleepy, Nashville richest areas are not included in Nashville-Davidson.

[rocket9561]

But those areas are included in Davidson County which I cited in my stats.

Agains, for the 3rd or 4th time, I was comparing the whole of Davidson County to the whole of Shelby County, and again, there's a couple hundred dollars difference in household income between the two.

I see now where I misused the term "Nashville-Davidson".  I used that term to make the point vis a vis "Memphis-Shelby".

39,797--all of Davidson county including Belle Meade and every other rich enclave.

39,593--all of Shelby county including wealthy suburbs.

That's summary table 3 from the census--median household income for counties.

Shocking, I know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How old are those stats?

for 2003 the Census has...

Median per Capita Household Income/Median per capita Family Income

Davidson - 40,439/51,764

Shelby - 39,593/47,386

Though it isn't a big difference it is kind of shocking that Nashville is higher considering it is almost all the city of Nashville. Only around 30,000 live outside of Nashville. For example, Shelby's Family income drops over 10,000 dollars inside Memphis whereas Nashville's drops only about $700 from the county.

[sleepy]

How old are those stats?

for 2003 the Census has...

Median per Capita Household Income/Median per capita Family Income

Davidson - 40,439/51,764

Shelby - 39,593/47,386

Though it isn't a big difference it is kind of shocking that Nashville is higher considering it is almost all the city of Nashville.

[doormanpoet]

Does FEd X have a tower in Memphis? Are they going to build one?

[DallasTexan]

Now you see why I used to get pissed off, sleepy

[sleepy]

Now you see why I used to get pissed off, sleepy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, and I haven't lived in Tennessee in a good 35 years.

I think Nashville is a great town, probably more than you do.

FedEx is the largest employer in the state and would build a high rise, , mid rise, low rise, and whatever it deems appropriate for its business plan.

[satalac]

Good Lord.  I got into this thread as a result of people posting silly things how Memphis is "in decline", etc.

Frankly, I don't care what city is wealthier, I'm just trying to dispel old--and apparently heartfelt and important--myths.

The stats I posted are from the 2000 census.  Using the census page, those are the only stats I found.

Of course Nashville "city" is wealthier than Memphis "city".  "Nashville" includes unincorporated Davidson County.  Include unincorporated Shelby with Memphis for a different picture.

BTW--where did you get the stats for income in Shelby County outside of Memphis?  The only stats I've seen are for incorporated cities and the county as a whole.

I'm tired of arguing about this.  I never attempted to portray Memphis as wealthier than Nashville.  It's not.  I did however accurately portray that Memphis-Shelby  is not the poor city as portrayed in the popular Nashville poster imagination, certainly as not compared to Davidson County as a whole.

Unfortunately, slamming Memphis becomes an easy habit and it's usually done with disregard for the facts.

If Nashville posters get their sense of identity from that, so be it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

wait, memphis isn't poor?

[brewerw]

Does Memphis have skyscraper restrictions b/c a city of there size i think should have a better skyline, no offense. While studying earthquakes my science teacher said that Memphis couldnt build huge building due to unsteady ground. Is this true?