Downtown Memphis

[jeffsanford]

Just to add to the facts regarding downtown Memphis...a recent survey conducted for the Memphis Center City Commission indicates approximately 25,000 people live in the 6.5 sq. miles which define downtown. Of those, approximately 12,000 now live in market-rate housing in the "high growth" areas along the river, through the core, and into the South Main District. Downtown Memphis residential is growing at the rate of 10.3% annually (the rest of the city is growing at about 1% per year). More people live in market-rate housing in downtown Memphis than in comparable housing in many peer cities including Nashville, Birmingham, Charlotte, Dallas, etc. In a word and statistically supported, residential development in downtown Memphis is booming. See www.downtownmemphis.com if you want to download the survey. It is fascinating and dispels quite a few notions - including some of my own!

Including all classes of development, there is currently $2.3 billion in construction taking place in downtown Memphis. Again, check out www.downtownmemphis.com for a complete listing of projects under the Develop section on the homepage.

[BrandonTO416]

Memphis is the undisputed urban living capital of Tennessee, and one of the most urban lifestyles you'll find in the southeast. That's something Memphis can be proud of.

In central Memphis poverty is going down, people are moving in, and the city is better off then it has been in decades.

My only concern from here on out is that the central market becoming over-priced and unavailable for middle income earners (and when I say middle, I really mean upper middle. A city that you can't live in comfortably with a $50k income is a city in trouble).

[satalac]

i believe one of the reasons that memphis is growing more in the central part of the city is because they are surrounded by two different states. rather than moving to arkansas or mississippi and commuting to tennessee (which does happen more and more often) people find it easier to live in the same state they work in. nashville on the other hand is in the middle of the state and has more room to grow. some might say this is a bad thing, but some might see it a good thing. i myself see this as a good thing, BUT only if nashville starts revitalizing their downtown. once this is done i don't see a problem with people moving to the outskirts of the metro area. i don't really think that nashville and memphis can ever truely be compared. they are both great cities in tennessee that have their own flavors, sounds, tastes and identities. i wouldn't want it any other way.

[mjtinmemphis]

I'm going to have to chime in on the Memphis vs Nashville fight. After living in Memphis for 2.5 years and Nashville for 2 years...I would have to say the Nashville is a little better economically not much but little.

Memphis kicks Nashvilles but when it comes down to things to do and cultural emenities. Hell Nashville doesn't have a zoo!!! (what type of city doesn't have a zoo). Nashville is too hick to even have a civil rights museum!!!

The biggest difference between the two cities is that Nashville is full of hillbilly whites and Memphis is full of guetto blacks. Take your pick. You can quote all the surveys and count the corporate relocations all you want but what matters is the quality of life. Sure economics means a lot when one talks about quality of life but it isn't everything.

[satalac]

I'm going to have to chime in on the Memphis vs Nashville fight.  After living in Memphis for 2.5 years and Nashville for 2 years...I would have to say the Nashville is a little better economically not much but little.

Memphis kicks Nashvilles but when it comes down to things to do and cultural emenities.  Hell Nashville doesn't have a zoo!!!  (what type of city doesn't have a zoo).  Nashville is too hick to even have a civil rights museum!!!

The biggest difference between the two cities is that Nashville is full of hillbilly whites and Memphis is full of guetto blacks.  Take your pick.  You can quote all the surveys and count the corporate relocations all you want but what matters is the quality of life.  Sure economics means a lot when one talks about quality of life but it isn't everything.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

actually nashville does have a zoo (granted, not as well known as the one in memphis, but we still have one) and we are getting a civil rights museum off of jefferson ave. just north of the bicentennial mall. and please don't steriotype nashville as full of hillbilly whites and memphis as full of ghetto blacks. if we want to have intelligent conversations, let's stray from these types of things. like i said in a previous post, nashville and memphis simply have different tastes and things to do. just because you don't like one city's identity does not mean that there isn't anything to do. it means you simply don't like what one city offers. others might, let's keep that in mind.

[mjtinmemphis]

actually nashville does have a zoo (granted, not as well known as the one in memphis, but we still have one) and we are getting a civil rights museum off of jefferson ave. just north of the bicentennial mall. and please don't steriotype nashville as full of hillbilly whites and memphis as full of ghetto blacks. if we want to have intelligent conversations, let's stray from these types of things. like i said in a previous post, nashville and memphis simply have different tastes and things to do. just because you don't like one city's identity does not mean that there isn't anything to do. it means you simply don't like what one city offers. others might, let's keep that in mind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree. Im trying to give an outsiders perspective on the two cities. I hear people from Nashville all the time ripp on Memphis as if their social climate is so much more dynamic that Memphis. The truth is that there isn't that big of a difference between the two cities its a matter of personal preference.

[BrandonTO416]

LOL, I think you hit the nail on the head with one comment.

Memphis, for a southern city, is amazingly low on the amount of hicks that live there. Memphis has plenty of blue collar types, but its not just hick trash all over. Memphis has a ghetto issue, and it has slightly.. very slightly more poverty. Its not a great deal more in any case, and its making great progress.

So many people who have lived in both cities realize this, including me.

Now on the other things, its true Nashville does have a Zoo. But the Zoo @ Grassmere is very small. Memphis has more of a world class zoo since they have one of the only Panda exhibits in the nation (only other Zoo's that have Pandas are the Washington national Zoo and San Diego), and its so well built and organized. But I'm not sure a Zoo makes a city truly BETTER at the core. LOL It is true, however, that Memphis Zoo sells family tickets to gay families at discounted rates just like "normal" families, its little things like this which gives Memphis a progressive feel you miss in Nashville.

What I think makes Memphis better is its true urban fabric. Its got a livable, working, lively urban center that extends beyond downtown. And the central city is growing more then most cities.

[BrandonTO416]

Speaking of the Memphis Zoo, which is in the middle of Midtown and not out in the burbs, here's a few pics off the Zoo site that has pictures of the Panda exhibit.

As you an see, being in the middle of Midtown, you can see the condo/apartment towers in Midtown outside the zoo.

And keeping with the Memphis/Egypt connection along with the Pyramid downtown is the Zoo entrance, decked out with heiroglyphics.

[rbhriuthbu1234]

Did you know that in the 50's they tore up almost all the trolie lines in Memphis because of everyone using cars, But now there rebuilding them and there going pretty fast there building them through downtown right now, or near ther anyway, Last time I rode you could only ride in downtown but now you can ride up past the Babtist hostpital there already to tearing down.

[sleepy]

However I think Nashville has a lot of qualites that Memphis doesn't.

[DallasTexan]

Very nice, informative post, sleepy

[rocket9561]

It really isn't fair to combine the school systems of Memphis and Shelby County...they are completely separate and this is one of the reasons that the Memphis city schools perform so horribly. Nashville's system of consolidation makes the metro school system much more balanced. It is very unfair that schools in the same county receive such different treatment because of the divisions of city and county government. I think this is one of the worst things about Memphis...not just that they are divided but because the people often refuse to work together. This holds Memphis back.

It is difficult to compare Memphis and Nashville because of the county/city issue. Nashville/Davidson should not always be treated as a county though because it is really a city-minded government that controls all of the areas. In the Memphis area, many people choose Bartlett, Collierville, etc. for the fact that they aren't Memphis. In Nashville it is the same way except people have to choose areas out of Davidson County to be considered "Not Nashville."

As for crime, in 2004 Nashville's Murder rate fell 19.4% to 58. I hope Memphis experienced a similar drop.

[it's just dave]

Nashville new museum will be for a comprehensive look at the contributions of African-Americans in the areas of medicine, invention, music, the arts. The site is chosen, planning meetings are underway, and a $30 million capital campaign has begun.

As for the zoo? We're working on quite an amazing, and accredited, beautiful facility. It will be one of the largest zoos in the country when completed. It's a very cool place indeed.

http://www.nashvillezoo.org

[sleepy]

It really isn't fair to combine the school systems of Memphis and Shelby County...they are completely separate and this is one of the reasons that the Memphis city schools perform so horribly.

[rocket9561]

I wasn't proposing that the Shebly County schools be combined with the Memphis City schools, although that might not be a bad idea.  I understand that they are completely separate.

Yet, the comparison that's made is between an innercity school system (Memphis)and a county-wide system (Nashville).

I was only proposing that a more accurate comparison of Memphis and Nashville schools take into account that with Memphis you have an inner city school system period, while the Nashville school system includes an innercity school system as well as what most people would consider a suburban school system.

I suppose you could compare schools in pre-consolidation Nashville.

Look at it this way, the situation in reverse--I could correctly make the statement that Shelby County schools are  superior to Davidson County schools.  That would be true on its face in terms of test scores, etc.  But it would certainly be fair  in rebuttal to say that Davidson County schools include innercity Nashville while Shelby County schools don't include innercity Memphis.

In terms of funding, everyone in Shelby County pays county property taxes which fund all schools in the county--Memphis schools included.  The city chips in $80 million a year for the city schools.  So, I'm not sure there is a funding disparity, although the funding mechanism is extremely complicated.

An interesting note--under the TN constitution, counties are responsible for education.  The mayor of Memphis has repeatedly threatened to turn over the city's school charter to the county.  Shelby County schools are already the 4th largest in the state, and that would create a district with 152,000 students.  County schools have said they would then break the system up into about 5 separate districts.  That might not be a bad idea--the proposals seem to balance the districts out with wealthy and poor, not ghettoizing the poor schools. 

At least in comparison to other innercity districts, Memphis schools do not  "perform so horribly".

As far as a metro government goes--that's a separate issue from consolidated school districts--Knox and Hamilton have consolidated schools.

Overall, I think a metro govt. works best, but some arguments against it, as you allude to, are that the most folks tend to dislike the innercity and want a "smaller, cleaner, less crime-ridden" (you can fill in the blanks) place to live.  Once a city/county gets consolidated, the only place for those folks is outside the central county which increases sprawl.  There's some evidence that might be happening with Davidson.  I suspect that if Memphis ever consolidated with Shelby, people would flee to other counties, particularly north Mississippi.

And Shebly County govt. also acts as a "city-minded government".  Every resident of Memphis is a resident of Shelby County and votes for county commissioners, the county mayor, county tax increases, etc., the same as people in Germantown or Bartlett.

I goofed on the murder stats.  I did bad math in addition to using 2003 figures for Davidson instead of 2004.  The correct figures would be approximately 10 murder per 100,000 for Davidson and 13 murders per 100,000 for Shelby.  I have no idea whether Memphis and/or Shelby recorded a decrease over previous years, but probably did, as that's the national trend.

At the risk of belaboring the issue, I guess my point is that there are a lot of stereotypes of Memphis which aren't borne out by facts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just know from living in the Memphis areas as a child and still having family in Shelby Co that there is a lot of friction between what happens in the County and what happens in the City. A consolidated system is much more fair and balanced. In the Nashville system, the zones are made up so that each school draws from both a suburban area and an urban area like Hunters Lane which takes students from white-collar Goodlettsville and inner-city areas like Inglewood. I wish Memphis/Shelby had this system and not just for the Memphis kids but also for the Shelby County children who could use an increased experience with diversity.

[sleepy]

I just know from living in the Memphis areas as a child and still having family in Shelby Co that there is a lot of friction between what happens in the County and what happens in the City.  A consolidated system is much more fair and balanced.  In the Nashville system, the zones are made up so that each school draws from both a suburban area and an urban area like Hunters Lane which takes students from white-collar Goodlettsville and inner-city areas like Inglewood.  I wish Memphis/Shelby had this system and not just for the Memphis kids but also for the Shelby County children who could use an increased experience with diversity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, I agree.

If the city surrenders the school charter, that's what's proposed.

Beyond that, though, Shelby County schools are already 25% black and, Germantown High School is 40% black. So, I don't think the problem is racial diversity in the county schools as much as it is economic diversity.

[TopTenn]

great news because memphis is better then atlanta overall but the downtown skyline is in bad shape this should help

[NickR78]

Here is a link to the new renderings for the residential tower at 100 south main. The design of the tower appears to have changed, but the construction start date remains June 2005.

http://www.ediarchitecture.com/High%20Rise/High%20Rise6.html

[sleepy]

Are you sure those are new renderings? It looks like something circa 1970, Miami Beach.

I thought that was an old one. I thought the newer ones had a brownish, brick-clad tower.

It's a cool pic anyway, and shows the density of downtown Memphis.

In any case, they've been moving dirt back and forth on that site for a year now, so it's good there's a definite start date.

[NickR78]

The first renderings I saw of building--then called Gayoso Tower--were posted on the downtownmemphis.com website about a year ago. I think these renderings are still posted, and they show a 20 floor red brick clad tower. Last fall, I read in the memphis business journal the building had been redesigned and would be built with reinforced concrete rather than steel frame. They height was also increased to 29 floors (21 story tower atop of an 8 floor parking structure). I'm assuming these renderings from EDI architecture are the latest.... I agree, It does look like a 1970s multi family high rise, with nothing special or distinctive. At least it will increase the density.

[alslex1]

Memphis is not behind Nashville in much of anything. Many times its the other way around. Nashville talking down to Memphis is like a redneck cousin in Kentucky talking down to an Alabama hillbilly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tennessee is so well known for it's great minds and super education!?!

[satalac]

Tennessee is so well known for it's great minds and super education!?! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

make ignorant statements much?

[alslex1]

make ignorant statements much?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, I simply respond to them!

[nashvol85]

Old perceptions die hard I see.

I'm not sure what you mean by your statement that "Memphis has been in decline for a while."  If you're talking about population of the city, that's true--it only grows through annexation.  But Nashville-Davidson has also seen a population loss since 2000.  And Memphis metro grew right at the national average from 1990--2000.

In terms of schools, virtually every system in the country also has magnet schools, not just Nashville, even Memphis, which has Whitestation High School producing 24 National Merit semifinalists--more than any other public school in the state.

When you statistically compare Memphis with Nashville you are basically comparing a city to a county.  Davidson County is a unified school district.  Combine stats for Shelby County schools--which perform at a rate equal to Williamson County--with those of Memphis schools for a fairer comparison.

Likewise with income levels--household income in Memphis is lower than Nashville-Davidson, but median household income in Shelby Co. is $39,593 compared to $39,797 in Nashville-Davidson.

Nor would I say--with the exception of Belle Meade which has a relatively small population--is the state's wealth concentrated in Nashville:

Median household income, population--census figures

Bartlett city, Tennessee  $66,369--pop. 40,309

Belle Meade city, Tennessee  $144,720--pop.  2,935

Brentwood city, Tennessee $111,819--pop. 23,825

Collierville town, Tennessee $80,575--pop.  31,877

Franklin city, Tennessee  $56,431--pop.  41,756

Germantown city, Tennessee  $94,609--pop.  37,281

One of the interesting income stats on Shelby County s is the disparity between black and white which is much higher than in Davidson:

Davidson--black median income 29,476; white median income 43,589

Shelby--black median income 28,354; white median income 51,551

Of course, the wealthiest parts of the Memphis metro are either in the city itself--East Memphis--or in Shelby suburbs.

Finally, a ranking of cities by violent crime:

http://www.citymayors.com/society/uscities_safest.html

40 dallas

41 nashville

42 memphis

43 st. louis

44 baltimore

45 las vegas

46 miami

47 detroit

48 atlanta

Certainly, Memphis has more murders than Nashville, but per 100,000, Shelby County's homicide rate is lower than Davidson's.  Nashville-Davidson had 72 murders in 2003; Shelby had 120 in 2004.  Works out to 7.5 for Davidson and 7.4 for Shelby.

As far as development goes, I know that over $3 billion was spent in downtown Memphis in 2003, and the numbers were similar going back a good five years.  If you're referring to the core meaning the city itself--the largest mall in the metro area was built within the city--Wolfchase--about 6 or 7 years ago.  To the north of downtown--Uptown is a 150 sq. block area being transformed.  The medical center is being torn down and rebuilt as a research park.  Nearby housing projects to the med center are being turned into mixed rate housing.

Overall, for the past few years I've read that capital expenditures in the metro have exceeded any other metro in the state.  So, in terms of development, I don't know what else the city could do.

So, I wouldn't say that Nashville's schools, crime rates, or income levels are quite that much better than those of Memphis, despite popular belief.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For one...you left out a couple of Nashville burbs with your income comparison:

Forest Hills - $124,845 - population 4,710

Green Hill (CDP) - $62,690 - population 7,068

Mount Juliet - $58,600 - population 12,366

Oak Hill - $90,174 - population 4,493

Davidson County PER CAPITA income - $23,069

Shelby County PER CAPITA income - $20,856

*Williamson County PER CAPITA income - $32,496

*highest in state

Nashville has 279 $1million+ homes by itself, along with 350 in Belle Meade, 167 in Forest Hills (more than Brentwood's 157), and 105 in Oak Hill for a Davidson county total of 901 $1million+ homes.

Memphis has 299 $1million+ homes by itself, along with 93 in Germantown, and 15 in Lakeland for a total of 407...but I couldn't find any stats for unincorporated areas of Shelby county...however, I kind of doubt that there are 500+ in those areas. (Shelby county would need 1,372 county wide to equal Davidson's percentage).

If you want to argue the 'money' battle between the two metros, you are fighting an uphill battle.

Also, if you can, get your hands on the list of schools statewide that are being pressured by the state to improve or else be taken over by the state...you'll find that most of the schools are in Memphis. Memphis City schools are TERRIBLE!

"the state of Tennessee has identified 105 Memphis City Schools as "target"* schools, 22 Memphis City Schools on "probation"*, and 22 Memphis City Schools on "corrective action"*" (www.memphis-schools.k12.tn.us/ special.announcements/board/sept2203.htm)

I believe that the rest of the state had just over 100.

You can't compare city of Memphis to Nashville/Davidson crime stats accurately. There are lots of rural spots in Davidson county that have virtually no crime. If you add Shelby suburbs to Memphis, you are adding 250,000 people in areas of lower crime. It would be more interesting to find the crime statistics for Nashville USD (urban service district) to compare to the city of Memphis. (Nashville USD has about 395,000 people in 195 square miles, but excludes some urban areas such as Madison, Hermitage, and Bellevue).

Nashville doesn't have a HUGE edge, but a noticeable one in most categories.

[satalac]

No, I simply respond to them!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you must spend a lot of time talking to yourself then.