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Light Rail in Orlando


demon

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I think light rail in Orlando would be just like what's happening in San Jose, low ridership. Light rail works best in older, more developed (and denser) communities and only there is it profitable. I don't think Orlando's downtown is dense enough to support light rail and it would be a big waste of money constructing and maintaining a system that could be destitute of riders.  -_-

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I don't think so because lightrail in Orlando would hit major things like Disney, the Convention Center, Universal, Kirkman area, downtown, Winter Park, etc. This was the initial plan, and at some point it will be raised again and will probably go through. I have heard (rumors, but from some good credentials in the hotel/convention business) that the large Home Builders Convention was going to be a major decision for the city/county as to whether or not lightrail is in our future. The general concensus that came was that competing with Vegas or Chicago (both with some form of localized transportation right to their respective convention halls) would be impossible to surpass without something better than our current system of highways. So in general, its on the table again.

I do see the commuter first. Commuter for the locals generally, and lightrail for the tourist corridor makes a good deal of sense.

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It was one vote away from reality last time. Hoenstein! A lot has changed since then and hopefully many lessons have been learned. At the time Downtown had no population. At that time Winter Park businesses weren't being threatened by WP Village or Baldwin Town Center. I think if that all came together again, Fed money, State money etc. then the locals would jump on it.

What many didn't consider then was that even if the initial segment doesn't have great ridership, you have to get that first segment started, then as you add to it ridership will pick up.

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Has anyone seen the lightrail/mass transit system in the Dallas/Fort Worth area? I've never been, but I have an uncle who lives there and he told me that although there were originally questions about whether it would be economically viable, it is now so packed that it is often difficult to get a seat during peak hours.

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I think light rail in Orlando would be just like what's happening in San Jose, low ridership. Light rail works best in older, more developed (and denser) communities and only there is it profitable. I don't think Orlando's downtown is dense enough to support light rail and it would be a big waste of money constructing and maintaining a system that could be destitute of riders.  -_-

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With all due respect San Jose and Orlando are different cities. Orlando will never have a concentrated area of population but we do have a steady stream of tourists who I think would love light rail. Especially some of our European guests who are allready familiar with light rail. I think it would be a very attractive alternative to renting a car and in some cases driving on the right.

Our I-Drive trolley is well used by our European guests, and I think a rail might get some of them to venture downtown. Especially with a vibrant night life and a performing arts center. Ditto for the conventioneers. There was an artical in the paper today about where they ventured to spend their money.

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To answer the earlier question about timing of commuter rail...

Latest estimates have the north line of commuter rail up by 2009, with the southern line (from the Amtrack station south to Kissimmee) two years later. I think commuter rail with it's few stops will be successful here, considering the I-4 corridor; the same needs to be done east-west, perhaps along OUC's rail line to the coal power plant near Avalon Park.

I agree that light rail is not neccessarily going to work in Orlando; light rail needs density to work correctly, and it cannot be operated like a "bus on rails", especially down the center of a freeway. Connecting Disney or I-Drive to the airport would be great, but not if it takes forever to get there.

Las Vegas put together a private monorail system between the major strip locations and the convention center... too bad our I-Drive and theme parks don't do the same WITHOUT government subsidies. But casino money flows faster than tourism money.

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I'm all for commuter rail in Orlando, but there might be some problems with it that haven't been mentioned yet. For instance, if the CSX tracks are used and the Lynx central station becomes a commuter rail stop, there will be at least one train slicing through downtown every fifteen minutes (one commuter train in each direction ever half hour plus freight). The biggest problem with this will be the resulting congestion, as east-west traffic is thwarted by ringing bells and candy-canes with more regularity than old faithful. People will be late to work, pizza's won't be delivered on time, babies will cry, etc. Not to mention the fact that downtown's new influx of luxury condo residents will fall victim to the noise and traffic produced by these trains.

But in all seriousness, people already abhor the few freight trains that pass through downtown already. Imagine what it would be like with the additional commuter trains.

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they could simply do existing tracks right through downtown and instead of railroad crossings it could just work as stop lights. That is how the above ground portions of the MBTA in Boston works, and it works just fine.

Crossing an intersection:

Boston15.jpg

Snow covered but you can clearly see car tracks that have gone right over the rail:

boston05.jpg

See the car waiting for the train to go by:

boston07.jpg

And then once it gots beyond Boston center the spots become more sparse and become actual stations:

Boston19.jpg

boston27.jpg

Lightrail cars are generally not loud, and its no more than two cars attached. If it works in Boston, a city with a hell of a lot more cars crammed into smaller streets and spaces, I don't see Orlando having any problem.

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they could simply do existing tracks right through downtown and instead of railroad crossings it could just work as stop lights.  That is how the above ground portions of the MBTA in Boston works, and it works just fine.

The difference is that these will be commuter trains like the ones that left from North and South Stations in Boston and not light-rail like the Green Line. As you know, the Green Line trains are short and stop at street lights just like cars. Commuter trains have exclusive right-of-way and in other cities either go underground near downtown, are elevated, or require that all roads that cross the tracks be elevated. With Orlando, none of these options are really viable.

-You can't go underground because of Orlando's high water table. This is why we have so many parking garages above ground and so many homes without basements. Not to mention the fact that putting rail underground would be waaaaaay too expensive, especially for a city that isn't convinced it needs rail anyway.

-You can't turn the downtown streets into overpasses because of the lack of of space, regardless of the ridiculous impracticality and expense of doing so.

-Elevating the rail line near downtown would also be terribly costly, and because the tracks weave under I-4, there would not be enough space for the tracks to slowly ramp up to the proper elevation required for the clearance of vehicles underneath. Not to mention the fact that elevating rail lines is a 100 year old practice that has received harsh criticism. Most of the cities that have had "els" (except for Chicago, of course) demolished them in favor of subterranean rail lines. Boston recently did so with the portion of the Green Line near the Fleet Center.

So this brings us back to at-grade crossings involving long (albeit not as long as freight) trains in the middle of downtown twice every half hour.

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^I was refering to lightrail in that post, which I personally still stand behind as a better solution at this time.

As for commuter, if a station isn't buried underground then it would be near impossible because those trains are too long and would block more than one intersection while stopped at a station. No single block is wide enough for a commuter train.

Also, underground is possible in Florida, its just expensive. It really has nothing to do with sea level.

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^I was refering to lightrail in that post, which I personally still stand behind as a better solution at this time.

As for commuter, if a station isn't buried underground then it would be near impossible because those trains are too long and would block more than one intersection while stopped at a station.  No single block is wide enough for a commuter train.

Also, underground is possible in Florida, its just expensive.  It really has nothing to do with sea level.

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Oh ok, it was just a misunderstanding then. I too would prefer light-rail to a commuter line.

As far as building underground goes, you're right, it doesn't have anything to do with sea level. If it did, cities like New York and Boston wouldn't have subways. But in Florida, the high water table prevents any large-scale underground development. If it were possible to build more than 15-feet or so beneath the earth here, we certainly wouldn't have nearly as many parking structures downtown. That also explains the lack of road tunnels in Florida. I'll do some more research on this subject later on and hopefully come back with a better technical explanation of this all.

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Part of the solution for putting Commuter Rail will involve re-routing of freight trains out of Downtown Orlando to the Jacksonville-Lakeland line. There will still be freight traffic, but not as much as current. Since the trains being proposed are double decker for commuter rail, and take up very little space, there won't be a great impact on east-west traffic - and surely the amount of traffic it takes off of Orlando roads will make up for the 30-second delay at crossings, not to mention the less frieght traffic on the main CSX line.

And, these trains are relatively quiet. Similar to the Commuter Rail lines to the San Fernando Valley in Los Angles - Metrolink. Plus, when I-4 goes under construction, we'll need these trains, lest we all sit in traffic on I-4 (like I did this morning for over an hour to go less than a mile due to a huge accident blocking all lanes).

Summary, WIN-WIN.

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If it were possible to build more than 15-feet or so beneath the earth here, we certainly wouldn't have nearly as many parking structures downtown.

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There must be a little wiggle room on this. Thornton mixed-use is planning one parking level below grade, and the Winter Park Post Office redevelopment is planning 2 parking levels below grade.

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^^

Charlotteans were willing to pay higher taxes to build it. To date, Orange Countians are not.

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I'm surprised no one has thought of spending our tourist tax for this item. It would definetly help attract large conventions here.

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With all due respect San Jose and Orlando are different cities. Orlando will never have a concentrated area of population but we do have a steady stream of tourists who I think would love light rail. Especially some of our European guests who are allready familiar with light rail. I think it would be a very attractive alternative to renting a car and in some cases driving on the right.

I still wouldn't bet on light rail, the number of tourists fluctuates and if I was the manager of transportation in Orlando, I don't want to see wavy ridership levels and profits/losses.

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I still wouldn't bet on light rail, the number of tourists fluctuates and if I was the manager of transportation in Orlando, I don't want to see wavy ridership levels and profits/losses.

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You just schedule more frequent cars during peak seasons. If we can attract large conventions like Vegas & Chicago we may not have an off season.

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Part of the solution for putting Commuter Rail will involve re-routing of freight trains out of Downtown Orlando to the Jacksonville-Lakeland line.  There will still be freight traffic, but not as much as current.

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How realistic is this? What incentive would it be for CSX to re-route their freight traffic on a longer route around Central Florida? Are Orlando's resident's ready to foot the bill to purchase new right-of-way for CSX? What about CSX customers located in Central Orlando? It sounds like moving their main line, from Tampa to Jax, would become a logistical nightmare for them.

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