Where does NC fit

[JunktionFET]

Fortunately US64 is a freeway from just outside Raleigh to I-95. A freeway is being built right now that will bypass the US64 business route through east Raleigh and Knightdale--giving people a true freeway from I-440 to I-95. It could be resigned as a I-95 spur like I-395 or the like. That would at least make Raleigh seem like more of a I-95 participant.

I agree that a distance-saving loop like I-295 should be built to include Raleigh directly. It is just the principle of the matter, you know... Another alternative (though not as good) would be to sign US1 from Raleigh to I-85 as I-185 or something and upgrade it to full freeway status. Right now you have to creep through North Raleigh on Capital Blvd (US1) and slow down a few times for some intermediate towns before hitting I-85 near the state line.

[BRONX BOY]

monsoon & NorffCarolina,

Thanks for your replies...I'll catch you guys tomorrow. Now I'm going to hop the #5 train home, and have a late dinner with the wife & kids.

Have a good evening everyone!!

Peace

[orulz]

I wish that I-95 had been routed through Raleigh, but some silly decisions were made back in the day I guess. Raleigh/Durham (and Greensboro to an extent) are a part of the great mid-atlantic corridor, especially in terms of passenger rail. I can't wait for high speed rail to be completed from Union Station in DC down through NC's metros. I think the second environmental study has been passed for the Petersburg/Raleigh leg.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Getting a bit off topic here, but... there already is a link to the triangle from I-95. It's called I-85. If you want to get straight to Raleigh, take US 1 south from Henderson. It's basically as good as an interstate, without many stoplights and not too much traffic until you get to I-540. There's no need to even upgrade it to an "official" interstate spur because it works just fine as it is. Personally, I'm quite glad that I-95 doesn't go through Raleigh. I-85, I-95, and I-81, the major corridors from the Northeast to the Southeast, all carry far too many trucks. I'm glad that I-95 doesn't go through Raleigh, since that would make our roads even more crowded and dangerous. We get a big enough dose of traffic from I-40 already, thank you very much.

Regarding the Petersburg-Raleigh rail link: unless you know something I don't, the Tier II EIS hasn't been published yet. It should, however, be out within the next couple of months. After that's done, and a record of decision from the EPA has been obtained (supposedly before the end of 2005) the next major hurdle will be scraping together enough funds for the project. A year-old report shows the estimated cost of the Richmond-Raleigh segment as $407 million, excluding the cost of new ROW acquisition in order to straighten curves. This is not cheap, and we all know how estimates tend to err on the low side, so we'll just have to see how well NC, VA, and the feds can stomach it.

[JunktionFET]

I was told by a contact at the DOT several months ago that the second EIS was being concluded, so I assume that it should be complete or at least very very close by now.

Everyone I've spoken with is very positive about the system and though it will be expensive, it sounds as though it will go through without as many financial headaches as one would think.

[Jerseyman4]

According to this; ill interpretate:

http://www.ncdot.org/planning/statewidepla...rtationPlan.pdf

Look for Page 27

Basically, the NCDOT recommends/upgrade it all freeway through the state except the following:

North of Henderson to the VA line where it parallels I-85

Between I-540 and I-440, turn it into an expressway (essentially eliminating driveways and moving them onto parallel roads but signals may remain and/or the signalized intersections will be grade seperated and/or interchanges

-------------------------

My Thoughts:

The real need is to make US 1 a freeway between Raleigh and Henderson as development is reached as far north as Henderson now. Its just a matter time before all of US 1 between Raleigh and Henderson is choked with commuters.

Tramway area just needs to be upgraded to expressway status (Type I status).

Lakeview to North May St, needs to be Type I or II expwy status

Southern Pines bypass should remain as it is. Full right shoulders should be built. At least they did put decel/accel lanes in 2002, thats a start

Southern Pines/Aberdeen business strip (Sandhills Blvd)... thats where the NCDOT needs to now start buying ROW to re-route US 1 somewhere. A bypass around that area would not be needed now but 20-30 years from now, yes. They may have to start as far north as N May St and go along the eastern fringe of Southern Pines and Aberdeen and meet back up south between Pinebluff and Hoffman.

Through Richmond County, US 1 just needs to be Type II Expwy

The Rockingham Bypass (not built yet), should be built to the same standards as the Southern Pines bypass but not substandard (inadequate shoulders, short accel/decel lanes, etc)

Between future I-73/Old Cheraw Hwy to SC, only because of I-73's existance, build a freeway otherwise if not for I-73... Type II expwy.

Note: Most of US 1 thats not freeway is Type II boulevard with possible Type I boulevard segments along bypasses like Wake Forest, Youngsville, Franklinton.

[AnEverydayJo]

I'm kinda in the middle on this issue. I feel that North Carolina is more of a mid-altantic state geographically, and culturally Southern. Give NC another 25 years, and I think people's opinion might be somewhat different.

[JW2]

How does the NASCAR equation fit into this whole scheme?

Here are my southern states: NC, SC, GA, FL, AL, MS, LA, TX, AR, TN

[UrbanSoutherner]

In my opinion, the State of NC is definitely southern culturally (and what else matters ultimately). The South is more than Mississippi and Alabama. NC has largely the same baggage of southern history, etc. Also, there is a LOT more to NC than the Triangle and Charlotte with all of their impressive growth and nonsouthern newcomers. Together, those metros are only around 2.5 million of around 8 million people in the state. While I may agree that the Triangle has become less southern as such, I would be hard pressed to ever say NC is not culturally southern looking at other areas of the state like eastern NC. Every direction out of Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill for a few minutes takes you to communities that are as southern as they come. Not to mention that Charlotte is a downright conservative Bible-belt town in many ways (surprisingly so for the nation's second largest banking center). I do not think anyone from California or New York would mistaken think that they are not in the South when they are in Charlotte. Arguably, central Atlanta is not particularly southern anymore, but believe me, Georgia at large most definitely is. Furthermore, Mid-Atlantic states are not generally sending policitians like Jesse Helms to Washington as NC did until recently. Definitely southern culturally. The only part of the South (defined as the states that experienced the shared history of slavery, secession, and Jim Crow) that has really become something else arguably is Florida south of Orlando, due to the truly massive population changes with immigration of retirees from elsewhere in the US and Canada along with Caribbean and Latin American immigration.

[JunktionFET]

Also, there is a LOT more to NC than the Triangle and Charlotte with all of their impressive growth and nonsouthern newcomers. Together, those metros are only around 2.5 million of around 8 million people in the state.

Triangle: 1.4 million

Triad: 1.5 million

Charlotte: 2 million

That's pushing close to 5 million people--over half of the state's population. So well over half of the state's population belongs to a metropolitan or urbanized high growth area. That means that some of the remaining 3.x million people are scattered amongst a few other small but rapidly growing cities (Wilmington, Asheville, etc.), and the rest (we'll say just under 3 million) are distrubuted across the relatively HUGE mass of land that comprises the rest of the state.

So it would seem that in terms of population, the high growth metros and small cities are the big thing in NC. It would be overstating the issue to say "there is a LOT more to NC..."

While I may agree that the Triangle has become less southern as such, I would be hard pressed to ever say NC is not culturally southern looking at other areas of the state like eastern NC.

Without a doubt NC is culturally southern, or "Atlantic Coast Southern" as I like to call it, as it is a different kind of culture and verbal accent than what you find in the heart of "the Deep South" or "Gulf Coast Southern". Just take a drive through Middlesex, Climax, Finger, etc... Heh, I picked those town names on purpose. Mighty suggestive aren't they? But anyway these little one-horse towns can be found on the outer perimeter of all three big metros. These are barely towns though--I can't imagine more than a couple hundred people live there, if that.

Not to mention that Charlotte is a downright conservative Bible-belt town in many ways (surprisingly so for the nation's second largest banking center).

I have to disagree with your perception there, and I'm sure others would as well. I lived in Charlotte for 2 years (2002-2004), and I spent a few years growing up there when I was little... I consider myself to be detail oriented and I saw nothing unusual about the Christian culture in Charlotte. It seemed no more obvious or benign as any other place I've been to in the northeast. The only really obvious thing is that there is a street named after Billy Graham. Sometimes traffic was bad on it.

Furthermore, Mid-Atlantic states are not generally sending policitians like Jesse Helms to Washington as NC did until recently.

Jesse was a grouchy old blowhard that somehow garnered enough votes to stay in Congress. I remember back in middle school (1990-ish) people were questioning as to how in the hell he got another term. It isn't like everyone voted for him.

[UrbanSoutherner]

Good points NorffCarolina. I do not disagree with you about different regions within the South as there certainly are different regions. I love the BBQ maps showing the different BBQ sauce belts. But I think NC has more in common with SC or GA than PA for example. It is not Mid-Atlantic in that sense. I will also agree that around half the state lives in the Charlotte, Triangle, and Triad regions (although your numbers are counting counties in SC and smaller micropolitan counties that are part of the combined statistical areas - getting a little fringy). I do tend to consider Charlotte and the Triangle in different category from the Triad due to the speed and nature of their growth and migration inflows (I lived in Winston briefly and actually liked the city, but I would not say what is going on in Winston is comparable to what is going on in Charlotte or the Triangle). What I do not agree with is the notion that because some cities are fast growing, that means that the southernicity of the state is necessarily fading. I think it depends on the city. There are lots of booming metropolitan areas in the South as part of the sun belt, but I do not think that means that huge areas of the South are no longer southern as such. It certainly does not mean that huge parts of the South are Mid-Atlantic. At some point, what does being part of the South mean? Around half of SC lives in the Greenville/Spartanburg, Columbia, or Charleston MSAs or CSAs and they are experiencing healthy growth as part of the sunbelt too. That does not mean that SC is not southern. My impression of Charlotte as rather socially conservative may be unfair but it comes from the following items. Some of these may also be dated as I know things are changing in the city. 1) Billy Graham Parkway. 2) The Bakers and Heritage USA in the SC suburbs of Charlotte. 3) The historical settlement and denominational patterns of the piedmont region of the Carolinas generally producted a somewhat more socially conservative climate. 4) The 1997 or so mess with the Mecklenburg County Commission and the arts council over Angels in America, etc., if I remember correctly. Granted some of these folks were voted out later. 5) The usual flap over the city's granting of permits for the Gay Pride deal (would be totally laughable in Atlanta or most larger northeastern cities). 6) A recent Time article on the growth of the Roman Catholic Church in the South using Charlotte as an example. One of the points of the article was the more conservative influence that it could have on the church in the US. 7) Having visited Charlotte many times, it is just a vibe that I picked up on. Maybe it was just who I was with or where I was. But that was the vibe I got. This is not a vibe I get in all southern cities.

[JunktionFET]

I definitely see rural NC as a different from a place like rural PA in terms of accents, local cuisine, etc... I believe that taken as a whole, NC is more of a mid-atlantic state in terms of physical qualities. Look at our climate, geographic composition, latitude, etc. Physically NC can easily be called mid-atlantic, but culturally it is definitely more southern, as you, me, and others have pointed out in this thread.

[UrbanSoutherner]

Agreed. If NC would ever become more culturally Mid-Atlantic, would Virginia have to become more Mid-Atlantic over southern first?

[AmericanUrbanDesigner]

As far as weather goes, NC typically borders on snow lines, keeping climate mild compared to say a Maryland but would definitely not be anything like FL or MS winter. As far as demographics, terrain, scholarship (read universities) and attitude - I would include NC in the more northern group. 

**Speaking of scholarship, Raleigh is tied with Seattle for most adults with a bachelor's degree or higher at 48%

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great question...and I'd agree with you.

[BRONX BOY]

Agreed. If NC would ever become more culturally Mid-Atlantic, would Virginia have to become more Mid-Atlantic over southern first?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Urban Southerner,

Hello & Welcome to the "Planet"

VIRGINIA & NORTH CAROLINA ...IMHO are kind of in a weird spot. Because culturally they are "considered" Southern states, but geographically they are Mid-Atlantic States. As i said before on this thread... I think the true Mid-Atlantic States are: New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, West Virginia, Virginia, and North Carolina . Anything besides that is considered Northeast, I'm from NY and I don't think it's a Mid-Atlantic state, but some agencies & organization have it listed as such if you look it up on the web.The same thing can be said for NC,certain goverment agencies list NC as a Mid-Atlantic state, and other list it along with Virginia as southern. OK... let's look @ at it from this point of view (Oh Boy... I'm sure I'll get reemed for this comment) but the proximity of these states to the Northeast makes it close enough to drive to NYC in 9hrs or less, what other southern states can you do that from? I know sometimes people can be "very proud" about their heritage & area that they reside, and don't get me wrong "THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT" . But with all the new development around NC & VA (That definately has Northern Influence) i think in time it will be hard to not say NC is a Mid-Atlantic state. NC is a very unique and gorgeous state!! Just like it's sister just to the North(VA)...some NC cities have rowhouses and are either restoring them or building new ones. I've seen them on trips to Richmond, Winston Salem, and Greensboro . I know it might sound silly, but I don't recall any other "Southern States" that have rows. If i'm wrong, someone please correct me....I can admit it when i'm wrong.

[AmericanUrbanDesigner]

Hey Bronx! I want to go out on a limb and say that NC has a history of being more liberal than the other "Southern" states. I understand it was the last state to leave the Union in 1861 and only b/c it was literally surrounded by Confederate States. (Nevertheless, "NC contributed more lives" to "The Cause" than any other state...maybe another urban myth?). In fact, I'd argue that VA is MORE SOUTHERN than NC!

Geographically and climatologically, though, labeling NC "Mid-Atlantic" is probably a stretch. NC's southern coast is sub-tropical while it's mountains have a climate closer to the Canadian Maritimes. (NC really really defies categorization...).

Like you, it's likely I'm going to be reemed for this post.

[BRONX BOY]

Hey Bronx!  I want to go out on a limb and say that NC has a history of being more liberal than the other "Southern" states.  I understand it was the last state to leave the Union in 1861 and only b/c it was literally surrounded by Confederate States.  (Nevertheless, "NC contributed more lives" to "The Cause" than any other state...maybe another urban myth?).  In fact, I'd argue that VA is MORE SOUTHERN than NC! 

Geographically and climatologically, though, labeling NC "Mid-Atlantic" is probably a stretch.  NC's southern coast is sub-tropical while it's mountains have a climate closer to the Canadian Maritimes.  (NC really really defies categorization...). 

Like you, it's likely I'm going to be reemed for this post. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Like you, it's likely I'm going to be reemed for this post...

I agree with you from the historical aspect, and that NC really defies categorization. Putting "Culture" aside, and if you look @ a map the state is right there in the middle of the Atlantic Coast with VA. Again...you can't argue with history, but if NC & VA are not Mid-Atlantic states then why is Kentucky & Tennessee considered Mid-South States? Just curious, I mean Kentucky borders VA and Tenn borders N.C. & VA... So why can't NC & VA be Mid-Atlantic States? I mean they border the Atlantic. Well...I guess in this day and age, it's all ones personal perception.

Thanks for the reply American Urban Designer

[Spartan]

To me "Mid-Atlantic" seems like it is an artificial name that was made up to pacify the DC/Balitmore area because of their identity crisis between the north and south. I understand what mid-atlantic is, but I would just assume ignore it completely.

[stinkweed]

Well. I didn't read all of the posts but I'll give my opinion anyway. I hadn't given it much thought until now but there seems to be a definite mid-atlantic region. To say the least, there is a difference between southern states ie Miss, Tenn and the like and the others NC, MD and DC. I guess being from the north you notice more.

I'd say NC makes it to the Mid-Atlantic, slightly. I think this will become more noticable in the years to come. But two years ago, my girlfreind and I took a trip down there on the 4th of July and there were a lot of confederate flags hanging out. My gf is asian so you can imagine the horified look on her face. So i wouldn't put them in the north yet.

[JunktionFET]

I'm curious where in NC you saw the confederate flags. I can't recall ever seeing a real confederate flag flying in this state, but perhaps I don't venture out in some of the remote areas enough.

[blueize74]

There are some flags around - You could find them anywhere - doesn't make a state southern

[ncguy06]

Are all of you ashamed of being in the south or what??!?! NC is definitley a southern state....and there is nothing wrong with that, lets not turn into Atlanta by saying that we're seperated from the south, I am very proud to be from such a great southern state, and to all of you who think NC isnt in the south please go back to where you came from! j/k

[JunktionFET]

ncguy, I think that an overwhelming majority of people (if not everyone) that responded to this thread agrees that NC is southern in culture and atmosphere (albeit, not deep south), there is certainly no shame in that.

The big question that I garnered from this is where should NC be categorized physically. Our state seems to teeter on the line between a mid-atlantic state and a southern state, whereas Georgia and Alabama (and South Carolina for the most part) are clearly southern states.

The point is that there are legitimate ways to label North Carolina as a mid-atlantic state physically, in much the same way that Virginia sits on the fence at times.

As you know, "the north" and "the south" are not in different hemispheres, there is an expansive gray area that blends the two together. NC is not in the deep south nor is it in the mid-south, so where are we? Why can't we belong to a region within the southeast but still be a "southern" state.

[blueize74]

I agree - I live in NC and "came from" NC - ncguy06 - figure that. Plus most people agree that NC should be considered a southern state

[ncguy06]

I would consider NC to be a southern state both culturally and geographically speaking. In my eyes I see Anything north of southern Virginia, through Maryland, Delaware, West Virginia, southern New Jersey, and southern Pennsylvania to be Mid Atlantic.

How can people say that North Carolina could be considered mid atlantic geographically, but Tennessee still southern?? NC is no more north geographically than TN.

I hope you don't take this as me trying to argue, just saying what I think

[Neo]

How can people say that North Carolina could be considered mid atlantic geographically, but Tennessee still southern?? NC is no more north geographically than TN.

Last time I looked at a map of the United States, Tennessee wasn't an Atlantic state.