Is Greenville becoming a big city?

[distortedlogic]

Let me take this conversation international.

I'm from the upstate but live in Bangkok, Thailand now.

I have to agree on this one. I lived in Qingdao China for a time. Many of you have probably never heard of it (though you may be familiar with its Tsingtao Beer / different spelling), though it is a city of over 6 million people. By China standards, not that large, kinda like Charlotte is here ( Bejing has 15 M, Shanghai has 16M) (In fact, Chongqing, China incorperated it's metro area a few years ago and became home to over 25M).

Compared to all but the largest American cities, this was a big city. Asian cities in general are a whole different ballgame. The province I lived in was roughly the size of N and S carloina put together, but home to about 95 million people! But even by american standards I would have to say no. I think Greenville is certainly a mid-sized city, and has many amenities that make it so. It will continue to grow and may become a larger mid-sized city, but I think it will be hard for it to be considered a "big city" by most people because "big" is relative. This means it woul dhave to become "bigger" than other similar and larger cities to leap into the next "tier". As these other cities are growing comparatively, this is unlikely to happen.

[silverseale]

<snipo> ... (Columbia) one of "America's most livable cities"<snip>

Except perhaps in July and August, when it is BEYOND HOT down there.

[Fiddlestix]

An article in today's Greenville News discusses the most recent U.S. Census data, focusing on growth. At least in the on-line version, raw data isn't provided. It just says that Greenville has fallen below Mt. Pleasant in terms of population, making Greenville the 5th largest city in the state. The actual numbers weren't provided (although we got some partial data showing how Greer and Mauldin are among the fastest growing cities in the state).

Also, the article says that "Greenville was surpassed by Mount Pleasant as the state's fourth most-populated city," implying that it fell to the 5th largest city. The U.S. Census data (see data below taken directly from U.S. Census data) says it fell to the 6th largest incorporated area. Maybe the Greenville News doesn't regard N. Charleston as a separate city. Or maybe they missed Rock Hill as they scanned the U.S. Census data, stopping before they got to "R" in the alphabetical state spreadsheet. Actually, the most likely explanation that I can think of is even more embarrassing: That Greenville fell to 5th among CITIES because it was leapfrogged by Rock Hill, not Mt. Pleasant (which is a TOWN, and which also leapfrogged Greenville, actually pushing it from 4th- to 6th-largest incorporated area (by pop.) in the state (comparing the 2000 Census with 2005 estimate figures that the Greenville News was looking at)).

Anyway, I'll allow others here to process the implications of this news. My point here is to arm you with better information than what you when you got from the paper.

Here's the article:

Here's the article: Annexation Fuels Census Growth In State's Cities

Here's where you can find all the data (released yesterday): http://www.census.gov/popest/estimates.php

What you didn't get (again, at least not on-line through the Greenville News because the following required the trouble of a sort of U.S. Census data):

S.C. Incorporated Areas Population (Top 50, ranked by 2005 pop. est.):

Columbia city 117,088

Charleston city 106,712

North Charleston city 86,313

Rock Hill city 59,554 2000 Census (actual): 49,765

Mount Pleasant town 57,932 2000 Census (actual): 47,609

Greenville city 56,676 2000 Census (actual): 56,002

Sumter city 39,679

Spartanburg city 38,379

Summerville town 37,714

Hilton Head Island town 34,497

Goose Creek city 32,516

Florence city 31,269

Aiken city 27,490

Myrtle Beach city 26,593

Anderson city 25,899

Greenwood city 22,378

Greer city 21,421

North Augusta city 19,467

Mauldin city 19,343

Easley city 18,852

Simpsonville city 15,135

Orangeburg city 14,460

North Myrtle Beach city 14,096

Hanahan city 13,818

Lexington town 13,586

Conway city 13,442

West Columbia city 13,413

Gaffney city 12,934

Cayce city 12,432

Clemson city 12,364

Beaufort city 12,058

Irmo town 11,223

Newberry city 10,659

Forest Acres city 9,991

Laurens city 9,824

Bennettsville city 9,351

Port Royal town 9,347

Clinton city 9,071

Georgetown city 8,941

Lancaster city 8,371

Union city 8,321

Fort Mill town 8,257

Seneca city 7,962

Hartsville city 7,414

York city 7,233

Camden city 7,000

Marion city 6,997

Fountain Inn city 6,729

Lake City city 6,690

Darlington city 6,525

[gs3]

May sound like a dumb question, but what determines "city" vs "town"? Some of the smaller places on the list are refered to as "city" while larger places are refered to as "town". Is it just semantics?

[Fiddlestix]

May sound like a dumb question, but what determines "city" vs "town"? Some of the smaller places on the list are refered to as "city" while larger places are refered to as "town". Is it just semantics?

Beats me. I was just trying to figure out how the Greenville News could miss that Greenville moved from 4th to 6th place. As best I can tell, there's no legal distinction:

S.C. CODE SECTION 5-1-20. Definitions.

As used in Chapters 1 through 17 of this title, unless the context clearly indicates otherwise:

(1) "Municipality" means a city or town issued a certificate of incorporation, or township created by act of the General Assembly.

[krazeeboi]

I think it just depends on what the municipal charter says.

[gs3]

Beats me. I was just trying to figure out how the Greenville News could miss that Greenville moved from 4th to 6th place.

Apparently the journalist were not reading UP that day to get their storylines.

[silverseale]

A couple other posters earlier in the thread touched on my feelings about this question--that quality is *far* more important than size.

[goodbye]

Here are a couple posts from a related thread in the main SC forum:

Calm down guys, please. What you all are losing sight of is the fact that the City of Greenville is growing, and will continue, though perhaps at a slower pace than others in this state. That doesn't make it any less large in actuality, just technicality. What we will continue to see happen (since it is already happening) is more of the higher density mixed-use and residential developments throughout the city. Because more people are moving to the area for jobs, school, high quality living, and etc, our city will experience higher density growth as annexation efforts remain slow. Interest in living within the city is on a major upswing, and that trend is being met with fantastic standards set in place to ensure the success of any new urban project. I for one am very excited to see - in person - the positive progression we are experiencing, regardless of how others see it on paper.

I don't really care how big our city is on paper, because life isn't lived on paper. Most people who see Greenville firsthand absolutely LOVE it. The quality of life is extremely high, the population is diverse for a Southern city, the cost of living is low, etc. The fact remains that the metro is growing at an impressive rate, and top-notch companies continue to relocate to Greenville. These things are MUCH more important than city population. The Greenville Journal recently had a piece about how "Greenville is now being compared to Richmond, VA and Birmingham, AL in terms of economics, size, and structure." If city limit population mattered one iota, these things wouldn't be happening.

Greenville gets underestimated at times, I think - even in this forum. It doesn't have the historical importance of Charleston, it isn't the state capital like Colulmbia, and it isn't a vacation desination like Myrtle Beach. It often only gets credit for being anything because it is located between Atlanta and Charlotte, and often the "horrible sprawl" is the first thing mentioned as a criticism. But we take it in stride, knowing that we're on to something in Greenville. We are happy doing our own thing. If a few people who look at city populations judge us solely based on that, it's their loss.

[Savboy08]

There is no city in South Carolina that is on the verge of becoming a big city. I don't even really consider Charlotte to be a big city. Atlanta, Tampa and Miami are really the only big cities in the Southeast.

I can see Charlotte(CSA) surpassing Tampa(MSA). Tampa doesn't grow as fast as Charlotte.(I go to Tampa an awful lot)

They are basically stuck at the 2.5-2.7 million mark.(population)

They do, have some pretty dense anchor cities(I consider Clearwater, Sarasota, and St. Petersburg too large to be an average suburb) though, verses most cities in states north of Florida.

If you were to compare Charlotte's CSA, which Tampa doesn't have, probably has to due to the fact that other areas around it(Tampa MSA) are not very dependent on it's MSA population to Tampa. I would definitely say that Tampa is larger, but Charlotte's CSA(which may indicate sprawl or some dependancy on CHRLT's immediate MSA), then Charlotte has a formidable 2.1-2.2 million. So if you consider Tampa a truly large city, you might eventually start counting Charlotte in. To me, Tampa has a more uban feel though. I see Charlotte, as a smaller version of Atlanta b/c or it's high MSA(suburban) growth rate, and it's also in the same geographic location(piedmont region).

I wonder what what triggers all of the growth in the south's piedmont area.

Oh, and I can see Greenville becoming one of the south's larger cities(don't really know about Columbia, no offense).

[erm1981]

We took a trip to columbia, and compared to what greenville is doing they appear to be behind. I know they have some great things going on down there. Also we walked around the state capital building and that was a very nice esperience. They have some very nice trees and flowers around there kind of like a big park.

[803metlife]

We took a trip to columbia, and compared to what greenville is doing they appear to be behind. I know they have some great things going on down there. Also we walked around the state capital building and that was a very nice esperience. They have some very nice trees and flowers around there kind of like a big park.

What method did you use to compare what's going on in Greenville compared to Columbia. Population?? Downtown Developments???Observation of the eye???

[GvilleSC]

What method did you use to compare what's going on in Greenville compared to Columbia. Population?? Downtown Developments???Observation of the eye???

I would guess observations based on his wording.

[Spartan]

I suggest to anyone who acutally beleives that to go and read through some of the Columbia section about what is ACTUALLY happening there.

[CorgiMatt]

We took a trip to columbia, and compared to what greenville is doing they appear to be behind. I know they have some great things going on down there. Also we walked around the state capital building and that was a very nice esperience. They have some very nice trees and flowers around there kind of like a big park.

When did you take your trip? I took a trip to Greenville in May to compare it to Columbia's recently completed developments and current construction and felt the opposite of what you said to be the case. And some more construction has started here since then (an entire block for the USC biomedical research school and the six-story condo building Adesso, for instance). You have to cover a heck of a lot of territory in Columbia to take in everything that is going on in what is considered downtown. Along Blossom street a huge four-block by four-block swath is in the middle of being completely transformed from mostly surface parking and vacant clay lots to dense development that will soon be a maze of beautifully designed buildings and very handsome parking facilities. And trees, my gosh the trees, and shrubs and flowers. And this fall USC starts construction of its 6800-seat state-of-the-art baseball stadium on the river, and next month they make way for a new 650 dorm honors college residence hall to replace the Honeycombs at Main and Blossom. If you had made your trip a year ago you would not have seen the 17-story Meridian building on Main or the recently completed First Citizen's Bank building at Main and Lady. Right now the 12-story Barringer Building and the 16-story Palmetto Building, both at Main and Washington, ar being converted into 75 apartments and a Sheraton Boutique Hotel respectively. Finlay Park, which was built about 15 years before Reedy River Park, is on the tail end of an overhaul and is at least twice the size of Reedy Park. A staff of park rangers works full-time there now to keep it up. They also work at Granby Park, which is adjacent to where the baseball stadium is going. I haven't mentioned everything that has recently been completed nor everything that is now under construction. And we haven't even started yet. The huge projects are still gearing up to get started.

[Infinite1]

its almost impossible to visit a city for a weekend or day-trip and take in whats going on. I did have a chance to visit Greenville last summer and I was impressed with their main street and with Reedy Park. But the area of development seemed very small compared to Columbia. Thats not to say, there isn't more going on. In fact from reading the G'Vill forums there seems to a lot more going on. But it is not apparent to the casual visitor. Even one who was actively taking note of developments. I would imagine it would be equally diffficult (if not moreso) for a casual visitor to Columbia to really take in the scope and the magnitude of what is occuring there.

[erm1981]

It was pretty much just the main street. It appeared that a bad storm just happened there so maybe that is why it looked a little battered. The buildings there are a little older so that is nice. Its very comparable to greenville as far as traffic and population. Each place has a lot going for it, and no i wasnt saying anything bad about columbia. We actually went to the zoo there and i wish greenville had a zoo like that. Greenville just doesnt have the area around the zoo like riverbank has. Also you know once the camperdown is built that area is going to be part of greenville's reedy park. That will be a few hundred more yards added on too it. Greenville just built a nice baseball stadium. We got the peacock comming( 11-stories). The camperdown will be 14 stories starting this fall. Pinnacle will be 13 stories, but not too sure about that one. Phase 3 river place has a 12 story building. That is just a small handfull. But just to make a long story short i wasnt comparing greenville to columbia. We all live in south carolina so it really doesnt matter. Myrtle beach is building more than either one i think. I couldnt believe the development going on down there.

[Spartan]

This is turning into a pissing contest. Stop it.

[Greenville]

This is turning into a pissing contest. Stop it.

For what it's worth, erm1981 was posting his observations about Greenville and another city in the Greenville forum. When he returned, he did a good job of defining exactly what he meant in his comments. At this point, I don't see what the problem is.

[Spartan]

For what it's worth, erm1981 was posting his observations about Greenville and another city in the Greenville forum. When he returned, he did a good job of defining exactly what he meant in his comments. At this point, I don't see what the problem is.

Oh I know. erm's initial comment was not out of line at all. But I know where this was headed.

[RestedTraveler]

I personally like what I've seen along Gervais Street and in Downtown Columbia. There are some obvious redevelopment and adaptive reuse efforts being made there and I think they're turning out very nicely. Columbia is a great place in a very unique way and I look forward to going back down there to visit again some day, especiallay during cooler weather.

I've seen photos of Finlay Park, but I've not been to it. I'd like to go check it out because it looks as though there are some pretty good views of Cola's skyline to be had from there.

I hate to see this turn into a measuring contest/pissing contest, too. All of South Carolina's major metros will grow and evolve in their own right and quite frankly, I feel all three have very unique qualities that will attract businesses and residents alike to relocate to these areas. If you take a step back and look at the overall picture, there's something for everybody in this state, whether you're a beach-goer, a golfer, an urbanite, a cultural enthusiast, or an outdoorsman/woman, we've got it all here. Greenville is the place that meets my lifestyle best, so that's why I'm here.

And, as I believe I answered previously to this thread, I feel it's already a "big city" with respect to it's cultural ammenities while still maintaining that small-town charm. That's a combination that's difficult to find anywhere else in the nation, and it's especially amazing considering the relatively low cost of living here in the South. That's what I like about it here.

[distortedlogic]

To address CorgiMatt's comment on Falls park, he may not have been aware that it connects to Cleveland park, which is much larger; at least several times as large. It also nearly connects to Linky stone park. Falls park is just one in an extensive park system around the city. Linky stone park will connect wonderfully with the rest of DT when (being positive) the Camperdown is built. There is also plenty of room for DT and the CBD to expand around and past all of these parks. As we have seen with some of the other projects, Gville's DT has plenty of potential in the area of expansion. Hopefully new projects will continue to do so, and current proposals will copme to fruition.

[RestedTraveler]

This is an extremely valid point, distortedlogic. You are indeed correct. There aren't many parks larger than this entire greenway stretching from Cleveland Park, through to Falls Park, through to Linky Stone, through to the new park along the reedy beyond that. There is definitely a disconnect at Church Street between Falls Park and Cleveland Park. This area should be a focus area beyond just the urban forestation thing that they're doing there. It should be made more visibly park-like so it very clearly ties the two (Cleveland Park and Falls Park) together.

[goodbye]

Don't forget the Fernwood Nature Trail at the extreme end of Cleveland Park, and the incredible Cancer Survivors' Garden/Park, which will be a direct extention of Falls Park into the West End. The riverwalk, which extends from Cleveland Park to Linky Stone Park at present, will eventually be extended into the large new Cleveland Park West, and could eventually be extended all the way to Furman University. The City expects loads of new development around the new park once it is complete. Someday, it would be nice to see MacPherson Park connected with the Cleveland Park trails as well.

[distortedlogic]

That would be a little tougher, but it would be great if they could do it. So which end of Falls Park will the cancer survivors garden be located, the Church st side, or the other? Timetable for the garden? (I must have missed this elsewhere)