Is Greenville becoming a big city?

[goodbye]

Sprawl is a terrible waste of land. Just because doing something a certain way is cheaper, does that make it right? That's kind of like saying the clearcutting of the Amazon rainforest is acceptable.

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I totally agree, Waccamatt. Its too bad that people aren't given more options to live within a city and keep the surrounding territories green. That is poor management of land-use. A terrible waste indeed!

[The_sandlapper]

Sprawl is a terrible waste of land. Just because doing something a certain way is cheaper, does that make it right? That's kind of like saying the clearcutting of the Amazon rainforest is acceptable.

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I agree. I am definately not an advocate for sprawl. It's just that becasue the land in the south is so cheap it's why sprawl is so prevelant, especially in rural areas. You take areas that haven't done much with the land so the owner sells it makes a profit, and the developer's make a dirt cheap investment and drive the price of the land up because now if you want to buy land here your'e gonna have to pay to be close to our next great mega development (shopping ctr, condos, resort etc.). It's happened in poor urban neighborhoods quite often, and it's happening all along the coast of SC as well. My girlfriends mother basically was forced to sell her house which is like 3 blocks from the ocean, since there is all this big time development (high rise condos/ resorts) going up along the beachfront the property taxes are going through the roof and it's is becoming too expensive for the average joe to live there anymore. She however did quite well when she sold her house though, but not everyone is fotrunate enough to have land that valuable to start out with.

[orulz]

Sprawl is a terrible waste of land. Just because doing something a certain way is cheaper, does that make it right? That's kind of like saying the clearcutting of the Amazon rainforest is acceptable.

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I absolutely agree with this statement! I wish that more developers would recognize that a built-to-last, well-designed project in a sustainable urban environment offers far more potential for long-term gain than strip malls and McMansions (which have lifespans of perhaps 20 years before they become hopelessly out of date).

Unfortunately, in this country, there are extremely few businesspeople who would give up a penny of guaranteed short-term profits for a chance at a dollar of gain twenty years down the road. It's the way our system works; shareholders and investors on Wall Street demand immediate results. They have a formula that works, so what reason do they have to step outside the box? Suburban development generates quick profits- and aside from a few token projects to appease the city councils, most developers see no need to veer from "business as usual."

[Mr.Marc]

Replying to whether G-ville is becoming a big city, I hope it or Columbia does. G-ville seems to approach different ideas more so than Columbia does, so if Columbia does not watch out or take initiative, I believe that G-ville will outgrow it and become the next international city of the south, right behind our ATL and CHLT neigbors.

[Spartan]

Replying to whether G-ville is becoming a big city, I hope it or Columbia does. G-ville seems to approach different ideas more so than Columbia does, so if Columbia does not watch out or take initiative, I believe that G-ville will outgrow it and become the next international city of the south, right behind our ATL and CHLT neigbors.

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Welcome to the forum HAMMETTM! I think you have a good point, except that there is no doubt in my mind that Greenville will overtake Columbia, its just a matter of time.

[waccamatt]

There is no city in South Carolina that is on the verge of becoming a big city. I don't even really consider Charlotte to be a big city. Atlanta, Tampa and Miami are really the only big cities in the Southeast.

[The_sandlapper]

Reply to Spartan,

I know alot of people think that! The only thing I can say we'll see! I'm still not convinced. Greenville has alot going on but so does C-lum, it's still too early in the game to make that prediction. There aren't very many cities in the position Columbia is in to lead the nation in the next energy boom (hydrogen). I know how things look now but Columbia is gonna suprise alot of people, just look at the patterns, of other succesful similar sized college towns before they exploded (Austin , Raleigh) they each had their nitch to grow on and so does Columbia in this case. Many "America's best" analyst have noticed it too. These were the same list that listed Raleigh-Durham, Charlotte, Austin, and other mid-sized cities 10-15 years ago as the "best places to live", throw into the mix with Columbia high quality of life, and you got yourself a ballgame! Remember USC is the lead institution for hydrogen research in the country.The research campus is dedicated to the grow and develop this industry, in the environment of the fields leading researchers. Siemens Diesel Feul has already located its North American HQ in C-lum back in 2003-04, don't count us out yet. We were the fastest growing large metro in SC from 1990-2000, and even now we are growing just as fast as Greenville, according to the census anyway, which somehow always gets overlooked?

[Spartan]

Reply to Spartan,

I know alot of people think that! The only thing I can say we'll see! I'm still not convinced. Greenville has alot going on but so does C-lum, it's still too early in the game to make that prediction. There aren't very many cities in the position Columbia is in to lead the nation in the next energy boom (hydrogen). I know how things look now but Columbia is gonna suprise alot of people, just look at the patterns, of other succesful similar sized college towns before they exploded (Austin , Raleigh) they each had their nitch to grow on and so does Columbia in this case. Many "America's best" analyst have noticed it too, throw into the mix with Columbia high quality of life. Remember USC is the lead institution for hydrogen research in the country.The research campus is dedicated to the grow and develop this industry, in the environment of the fields leading researchers. Siemens Diesel Feul has already located  its North American HQ in C-lum back in 2003-04, don't count us out yet. We were the fastest growing large metro in SC from 1990-2000, and even now we are growing just as fast as Greenville, according to the census anyway, which somehow always gets overlooked?

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Well, we are in teh same percentage bracket. That doesn't mean we are growing the same. But I see your point that it is close. But also, the Greenville Metro is bigger, which leads to a higher raw number. I'd be interested to see the acutaly percentages though. Heck I probably have, but I see so many numbers they all runtogether

[waccamatt]

Actually the Columbia MSA is the largest in the state according to the census bureau.

[Spartan]

Columbia metro 671,407

Greenville metro 578,485

Greenville-Anderson CSA 818,518

Columbia-Newberry CSA 708,247

It just depends on what numbers you want. The problem I have is that Spartanburg is excluded, which is a major problem to me because I have always considered it the same metro. Throw that in there and Greenville is over 1 million. But the Census says no, so thats what you have to go by. Either way, the Columbia UA is still larger by 100k. So, whatever

[The_sandlapper]

Funny you should say that !

From 2002-2003

Columbia area fastest growing counties:

Rankings:

Richland Co.: #6 in raw number growth & #10 in % growth

Lexington Co.: #5 in raw numder growth & # 5 in % growth

Kershaw Co.: #17 raw number growth& # 8 in % growth

Raw number total growth of 8,273 & % total growth of 1.43% from 02-03.

Greenville area fastest growing counties:

Rankings:

Greenville Co.: #2 in raw number and #9 in % growth

Spartanburg Co: #9 in raw number and # 16 in % growth

Anderson Co.: #12 in raw number and #18 in % growth

Raw number total growth of 8,092 & total % growth of 0.96%

I did the math from the census site. Let me know if I did it wrong. census

So this is why I'm not convinced Gville will out grow C-lum just yet. It's still too early. According to alot of people Gville is supposed to be redhot rightnow, well C-lum is growing just as fast and hasn't even warmed up yet! This is without the addition of the research campus. I know Greenville will have ICAR & it is supposed to bring 20,000 jobs to the area but even in some of the articles I read that is a very genorous number. I do know with the research campus USC will be hiring about 600 new faculty members alone without the added industry jobs. But like I said may the best city win !

I used to live in Myrtle before I moved to Greenville that place is truly exploding with growth and development! I couldn't believe how fast things were being built in year I was living there? I moved to Greenville right after that and heard all this talk about how fast Greenville was growing I was like huh? It was growing no doubt but not at the rate Myrtle was and still is! So Myrtle is my measuring stick in SC.

[The_sandlapper]

Columbia metro 671,407

Greenville metro  578,485

Greenville-Anderson CSA 818,518

Columbia-Newberry CSA 708,247

It just depends on what numbers you want. The problem I have is that Spartanburg is excluded, which is a major problem to me because I have always considered it the same metro. Throw that in there and Greenville is over 1 million. But the Census says no, so thats what you have to go by. Either way, the Columbia UA is still larger by 100k. So, whatever

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On paper GSA is that big but in person it just doesn't look like a metro of 1 million people. When I think of 1 million strong I think of areas like Richmond, Birmingham, Jacksonville, & Charlotte. GSA just doesn't make me think I'm in a large metro area? I'm not scolding the place or anything I just wouldn't know it if I was an outsider passing through you know?

[goodbye]

Just start driving from one ent to the other, and you'll find out that the numbers are accurate. Many times you'll pass through several municipalities without realizing you've left the first one! In Columbia, there is a much more concentrated area of residence, whereas here people are thickly (less in some spots) spread out across a large area.

[waccamatt]

thickly (less in some spots) spread out across a large area.

That's been exactly my point. Sprawl is certainly a problem in Columbia and Charleston as well, but Upstate SC takes the word sprawl to an entirely new level.

[goodbye]

I understand that Greenville and the Upstate have been influenced by sprawl. However, to use sprawling development as a way to say that a city such as Greenville can't become a big city, is nonsense. How will the suburban sprawl really cause a slowdown of development in the city? In my opinion (and since I live here everyday, I ought to know), the fact that vacant land has become much harder to find, will only mean that people will be looking more seriously at building downtown, and building large (someday soon ). Remember, currently a huge majority of Greenville's daily population have chosen (or have been forced) to live outside of city limits. These numbers aren't going to show up in the census, because that is not its intention. I'm sorry, but denying the fact that Greenville is much larger than visitors and outsiders realize will only leave you surprised when someday Greenville is undoubtedly BIG.

[The_sandlapper]

I understand that Greenville and the Upstate have been influenced by sprawl. However, to use sprawling development as a way to say that a city such as Greenville can't become a big city, is nonsense.  How will the suburban sprawl really cause a slowdown of development in the city?  In my opinion (and since I live here everyday, I ought to know), the fact that vacant land has become much harder to find, will only mean that people will be looking more seriously at building downtown, and building large (someday soon  ).  Remember, currently a huge majority of Greenville's daily population have chosen (or have been forced) to live outside of city limits.  These numbers aren't going to show up in the census, because that is not its intention.  I'm sorry, but denying the fact that Greenville is much larger than visitors and outsiders realize will only leave you surprised when someday Greenville is undoubtedly BIG.

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Not trying to pick a fight but, Skyliner I'm totally confused by you point now? Your saying that vacant land is harder to find, and because it's harder to find more people want to develop in the city core/downtown where that land is harder to find? I would think that they would build in places where the land is cheaper and more abundant like the burb's? I can see them wanting to build DT if they can afford too and turn a profit from it, but that goes against the south's whole sprawl epidemic. In the south it's cheaper to buy land 20 miles from the core and develop it there as opposed to building it DT where the land is harder to come by and therefore more expensive.

I choose the counties of the metro areas to be fair and more accurate of a representaion of the individuals who work in DT and retreat to their suburban homes after 5pm to be fair to both areas. I figured the county census would reflect that fine. Neither city is a living breathing 24hr town like NYC or Chicago, even Atlanta closes up shop to some extent DT after working hours? The counties that these people live in will more than likely reflect the metro area growth.

[Spartan]

Funny you should say that !

From 2002-2003

Columbia area fastest growing counties:

Rankings:

Richland Co.: #6 in raw number growth & #10 in % growth

Lexington Co.: #5 in raw numder growth & # 5 in % growth

Kershaw Co.: #17 raw number growth& # 8 in % growth

Raw number total growth of 8,273 & %  total growth of 1.43% from 02-03.

Greenville area fastest growing counties:

Rankings:

Greenville Co.: #2 in raw number and #9 in % growth

Spartanburg Co: #9 in raw number and # 16 in % growth

Anderson Co.: #12 in raw number and #18 in % growth

Raw number total growth of 8,092 & total % growth of 0.96%

I did the math from the census site. Let me know if I did it wrong. census

So this is why I'm not convinced Gville will out grow C-lum just yet. It's still too early. According to alot of people Gville is supposed to be redhot rightnow, well C-lum is growing just as fast and hasn't even warmed up yet! This is without the addition of the research campus. I know Greenville will have ICAR & it is supposed to bring 20,000 jobs to the area but even in some of the articles I read that is a very genorous number. I do know with the research campus USC will be hiring about 600 new faculty members alone without the added industry jobs. But like I said may the best city win !

I used to live in Myrtle before I moved to Greenville that place is truly exploding with growth and development! I couldn't believe how fast things were being built in year I was living there? I moved to Greenville right after that and heard all this talk about how fast Greenville was growing I was like huh? It was growing no doubt but not at the rate Myrtle was and still is! So Myrtle is my measuring stick in SC.

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I personally want to see both cities do well. Though I have spent less time in my life in Greenville than Spartanburg and Columbia.... Through my childhood, Greenville was always the big city that "took everything" from Spartanburg. If it weren't for them we'd have the cool stuff. I remember when we got an Old Navy before Greenville did, we thought we were special We expanded our mall to be the same size as Greenville's. SRMC got a helicopter I think to say "hey we're big enough to hahave one too."

Spartans have a slight inferiority complex towards Greenville. For the most part there is a great deal of community pride, and we tend to be frustrated when we see Greenville as the dominant place. It gets the bigger companies and more HQ's and all that crap. I see its cause as Greenville has more things to do, and people resent having to go over there to do them. Greenville was just the big brother that got the cool toys first so to speak.

So where the hell are you going with that Spartan? Good question. Going to school in Columbia has taught me that Greenville is not that big. While it is a large town to be sure it just doesn't have as big of a feel as Columbia to me. That said, Greenville is the central city of the region, and thus is a hub of activity and therefore it has all of the big city entertainment venues (BILO, Peace Center, etc).

Columbia has what I would call a "big city attitude." It is a central place and a government hub and it too has the big city entertainment the Greenville does and in some respects it is better (but thats just my opinion). Plus, when you are driving down Assembly Street or accross the Garvais St bridge towards the Capital it just feels like you're in a big city core.

I see it as both cities having a slight inferiority complex of the other. Greenville wants the big city attitude but lacks the area to create what Columbia has in that respect. Columbia wants the industry and the investment to that respect that Greenville has in a bad way (but what city doesnt?- I know Spartanburg would have loved to land an ICAR development (but we got BMW, so its ok;)- Greenville stole Hubble Lighting HQ from us too ) Anyway thats just one way I am seeing it.

On paper GSA is that big but in person it just doesn't look like a metro of 1 million people. When I think of 1 million strong I think of areas like Richmond, Birmingham, Jacksonville, & Charlotte. GSA just doesn't make me think I'm in a large metro area? I'm not scolding the place or anything I just wouldn't know it if I was an outsider passing through you know?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thickly (less in some spots) spread out across a large area. 

That's been exactly my point. Sprawl is certainly a problem in Columbia and Charleston as well, but Upstate SC takes the word sprawl to an entirely new level.

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The Upstate has the 5th worst sprawl in America. Right after Atlanta.

[randy1]

I have lived here in sc all my life. i have lived in charleston, greenville and columbia. Columbia, being the capital city isn't all that big. The skyline is impressive, but it doesn't constitute a big city. Columbia will not be the next Charlotte. Greenville and Charleston have more of the eye and attentionof the international ecoomy than the capital city. Columbia is a nice city, but there was absolutely nothing to do except go to carolina games and the zoo. Greenville is a growing area with international commerce and growing name recognition. Charleston is essentially the first thing people think of when refering to SC. I've been there recently and found that it is growing like wildfire. Latest numbers show that it is the largest urbanized area followed by columbia then greenville. The second and third largest cities are located in the lowcountry area as well.

Latest numbers for SC cities according to SC B&S

Columbia 117,293

Charleston 107,938

N. Charleston 84,938

Greenville 58,304

Mount Pleasant 56,039

[gs3]

In reading all the above comments, I'm assuming several of you grew up in the cities/areas mentioned and have a different view than I would (having moved here and knowing very little about South Carolina). So here's my take on it and it's a positive one.

First, I think for South Carolina to be a small (land area) state, it has done extremely well with having cities and regions that each play up their strength. The cities and regions in South Carolina are extremely diverse in geographic terms, economic terms, etc. and I find that refreshing.

Greenville Spartanburg Anderson is the number one economic engine. Pro business, European investment, a "very" quality life, rich in living options, geographically beautiful with the mountains. There is sprawl unfortunately.

Columbia is the number one educational and political engine. Pro education, research, all the goodies that go along with being the state capital (museums, etc). Geographically a little vanilla, but nice open vistas. Great lakes and warm summers for play!

Charleston is the number one historic tourist engine. Known worldwide for it's historical significance, world class dining, southern charm. The economic shipping engine for the state.

And then lastly the Myrtle Beach area. Kinda of the Vegas/Reno of South Carolina. New, growing like crazy, brings in major tourist tax dollars for the state!

With that being said, I believe each area has played up and should continue to play up it's unique strengths, because as a whole, they make one DAMN nice state that give each of us lots of options!

Most out of staters I meet are pleasantly surprised!

As for the business of Greenville vs Spartanburg vs Columbia......SILLY! Do you honestly think any out of state individual or company has such tunnel vision that they would look only at Spartanburg with Greenville right down 85, or vice versa? NO! They look at the area, and at the state.

When a company brought me in for a three day interview to upstate 4 years ago, I was treated to a great urban restaurants in downtown Greenville, the Beacon Drive-In and wonderful old neighborhoods in Spartanburg, sports in Clemson, the lake in Anderson and the mountains that surround all. One of the selling points the company made to me were "options" and they sold upstate as ONE united area! I left those three days and told everyone I knew about the rich diversity of Upstate! I became an upstate fan! Hell, I left here from the Greenville/Spartanburg airport in Greer! Sprawl as it might, you've got options!

With all that being said, get out of this silly business of GV vs SP vs CO stuff. If any area of upstate does well, it only benefits all of upstate. If any area of South Carolina does well it only benefits all of South Carolina!

Upstate should work as ONE united entity. Another post on this board talks about mass tranist and upstate. Well, yes, Upstate should have mass transit and it should join Greenville/Spartanburg/Anderson (and all the burbs in between) into one. One commuter rail transit system. Think of how many drivers that would take of I-85!

I for one have found all cities and regions in this state to have great strengths! I love that I have choices.....many states don't offer so many choices. You guys that grew up in this state should be proud!

Thats my take on it. But again, upstate, you're ONE region in most out of towners eyes....so stop the dicing and chopping by lines and boundaries and get on with the business of creating quality life.

[The_sandlapper]

My whole point is this, I'm constantly hearing that Columbia isn't growing as fast as Greenville but the actual numbers from the "gold standard" (census) and not speculation is suggesting otherwise. Columbia doesn't have a BMW but it has a USC, it has the research campus to Greenville's ICAR, it has Siemens NA HQ to Greenville's Michelin's NA HQ. There may be a possibility that Columbia could get an auto factory but it doesn't matter because it's never been a manufactoring town, if one comes great, if it doesn't it will move on.

SC is a fast growing state with similar sized cities that, according to the census anyway, appear to be growing at a similar rate. So if you are an outside investor looking to set up shop in SC (as suggested above) you may initially hear about Charleston and think it's a good market, but then you hear about a university town an hour and a half up the road that specializes in hydrogen energy technology and your company makes car engines that utilize hybrid hydrogen technology, wouldn't it be beneficial to establish your business in a town that does top research in this field? This way experts and students can be incorporated in the development of the product. This causes a chain rxn more people come to the area see it and say "hey it's not so bad here", and set up shop as well? The area is not a stick in the mud that seems to be implied. There are developments that are going on here that will change the region and states economy. I know I keep bringing up the research campus but like gsupstate implied the city is using its strength (academic research) to compete and make itself stronger! Again I say I'm not the only person who has seen this trend take off in similar sized towns 10-15 years ago, analyst of the "who's who" list of cities have noticed this as well (ie Richard Florida, Columbia, SC 5th most "creative midsized city"). However I'm not suprised I'm sure people were saying the same thing about Raleigh & Charlotte 20 years ago as well. "Why would anyone want to move to Charlotte, there is nothing there?" Well Charlotte took advantage of its strength's and made it happen. The city is not seeing prosperity by accident. But it had to start somewhere. Why is it so easily dismissed that Columbia has the potential do the same, especially in a small state that is growing relatively fast? I am simply implying that Columbia is doing the same thing.

Am I the only person that thinks like this?

gs, nice take on all SC metros by the way, that is kinda how I see it too, especially Myrtle.

[vicupstate]

^^

Bravo gsupstate. Very well put. It is amazing how diverse the three major cities are. I have lived in Cola and Gville, and have visited Chas. dozens of times. The attitudes, economy and geography are all very different between them.

I think the cities all watch each other and make sure they "keep up with the Jones" so to speak. As soon as one city gets a Performing Arts Center, Children's Musuem, new arena, etc., you can pretty much count on the other two being close behide with one of their own.

[Spartan]

SC is a fast growing state with similar sized cities that, according to the census anyway, appear to be growing at a similar rate.

I think this is the key. Despite our squabballing amoungst ourselves, we do ahve 3 equally fantastic cities that have 3 different strenghts (which is alot more than most states can say). Our cities here have a diversity that is definately unmatched in most states.

Greenville=Industry, Mountains

Columbia= Government, Research (USC)

Charleston = Ports, Tourism/Coast

You can go on and on, those are the important things that I think most people would consider.

Am I the only person that thinks like this?

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[motonenterprises]

This thread has really blown up! I have read some really nice things about all cities. They are all nice in there own way.

[randy1]

This thread has really blown up! I have read some really nice things about all cities. They are all nice in there own way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I like this comment. All the citie sin South Carolina have their own unique characteristics. I often hear people from Columbia complain that their city is often overlooked. I can understand that. I don't think that one city in South Carolina is above the other. I remember one article posted in the Post And Courier several years back from a resident of Columbia who was gloating over the fact that the Columbia Metro area had increased because some more counties were added to the metro area and Greenville-Spartanburg were split up. The article was such that it was clear that he or she was a resident of Columbia that tried to throw it down people's throat that now COLUMBIA was the largest city, largest metro and largest everything. It turned out that this was not true at all. South Carolina has some strict annexationlaws that make it vitually impossible for the cities to annex the land that would physically make it look like a LARGE city. The fact is that If you would have the same annnexation laws as North Carolina, the cities of Charleston, Columbia and Greenville would be about the same size. Each contribute to the state equally in their own respect. Columbia has had a public relations problem that is in the process of being remedied. They are looking at Charleston and Myrtle Beach for ideas, which they should do. The state should not fight each other but work together to bring commerce to the area. Recently there was a forum from some Columbia residents who were concerned that Charleston was going to be the next region to mirror the Greenville-Spartanburg corridor. In fact, the Voight industries announcement is a prelude of things to come for Charleston but isn't that good that South Carolina is being recognized for the workforce and ample opportunity for industry. Soon areas such as Columbia would benefit. That is how a state can make itself diverse and economically prosperous. The fact that the cities have differences is the beauty of it all. As a avid traveler I do predict that growth will induce economic fuel into the state. Growth will continue to excel throughout the state, but particulary in the areas east of I-95 and with the surgence of the baby-boomers moving in and establishing residence in areas such as Charleston, Beaufort, Myrtle Beach and Hilton Head.

[The_sandlapper]

Well technically Cola is the states largest MSA, or second largest CSA.

Charleston is the states fastest growing large MSA.

Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson has the most sprawl.

& Myrtle Beach, Beaufort Co., and York Co. are basically kicking the rest of the states arse in population growth!

Each region is different economically, geographically, & definately in attitude (although I'm not 100% sure about Charleston b/c I never lived there).

I do see each region having the potential to take it to the next level! Which one is leading now or which one will get there first doesn't matter as long as efforts are being made to improve the quality of life in the Palmetto State!

By the way while reading & writing I decided to change my "signature" below. I thought it would be appropriate!

V