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Main St Greenville vs Main St Columbia


vicupstate

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The change is noticeable though. Simple things, such as the street lighting changes, as well as the nature of tenants along the streets. The West End has a much higher percentage of galleries and studios. If you're observant, the sidewalks are very different in the West End. The City Center sees no brick (except at the Peace Center & court square) in the sidewalks, but the West End has extensive use. Greenville thrives on its details. I guess infrequent visitors or those who haven't visited in a while may not remember such subtleties that define the spaces, but they are there.
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City Center and the West End are definitely separate districts. The tone and vibe of the two is very different, and I think this is evident when walking or driving. The City Center feels more corporate and has no height restriction for buildings. The West End is a historic district, has a height restriction for all buildings, and has more of an artsy feel. The river also provides a physical barrier between the two. The fact that they are on the same street is irrelevant.

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I see no irrelevance in it at all. Assembly Street between the Vista and Main Street is a bigger psychological barrier than the short bridge across the Reedy is, and the 11 blocks that separate the Vista from Five Points are even bigger. The State House and grounds are another big barrier between the two ends of Columbia's Main Street.

To me it all goes back to my point that because of the huge differences in layout between and among the two cities' nightlife districts, it is silly to compare them. And then you have North Main in Columbia, which has had a groundbreaking for its streetscaping project, and Devine Street heading east out of Five Points.

Columbia's commercial and entertainment streets and corridors are not linear like Greenville's. In a comparison of the two cities' Main Streets since the streetscaping, only three of the six blocks north of the capitol from Gervais to Laurel can be included in Columbia, and I named 15 new things in those blocks a couple of days ago (Look back for that posting.).

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After reading the recent discussion, I agree the look and function of the West End vs Downtown Greenville are noticeable, and I agree that they are two distinct districts. While architecture is not substantially different there are other key differences that distinguish the who. 1) Downtown has highrises and a more substantial residential and business population that functions as the CBD. 2) The West End does not. The West End has a more industrial feel (especially when you get off of Main and Augusta), the baseball park, Falls Park, and less of a corporate presence. Some other things that makes the West End different is its younger tree canopy and the fact that it does not have any shrubbery and guard-rails separating people from the street. The parking situation also creates a different feel since it is not uniform, and it is not universal on S Main St and Augusta.

Now having said that you Greenville folks have to acknowledge the fact that having two districts immediately adjacent to one another is a fundamental difference between how they interact with each other when compared to the Vista and 5 Points. The fact that they are next two each other makes them act as one larger district even, and I argue that most people think of them as such even though they have different names.

Main St in Columbia is yet another beast since it acts as the CBD area during the day, but the nightlife, restaurants, and shopping is in two physically separated districts, one of which is not easily accessible from Main St.

So to bring this back around to the topic at hand, Main St in Columbia has made some minor progress over the past few years but IMO it has not been substantial. Maybe some people are reluctant to say that, but its the truth. I hope that TMG will act as a draw to Main St, but I think it will take more than that.

Columbia needs to seriously look at its design standards on Main Street and in the non-Vista parts of downtown and decide what they want to require of new towers and other development in those areas. IMO any thing build on Main Street should REQUIRE street level retail along the entire front of the building. There are too many examples of buildings that works more to kill street life than to encourage it. Greenville, to its credit, has been able to overcome this problem even in spite of the 60's and 70's.

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I see no irrelevance in it at all. Assembly Street between the Vista and Main Street is a bigger psychological barrier than the short bridge across the Reedy is, and the 11 blocks that separate the Vista from Five Points are even bigger. The State House and grounds are another big barrier between the two ends of Columbia's Main Street.
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Columbia needs to seriously look at its design standards on Main Street and in the non-Vista parts of downtown and decide what they want to require of new towers and other development in those areas. IMO any thing build on Main Street should REQUIRE street level retail along the entire front of the building. There are too many examples of buildings that works more to kill street life than to encourage it.
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This seems like a 3 page argument about whether or not Gville has seperate districts on the same street. My questions is; does it really matter at the end of the day? Six of one, a half dozen of the other. They may well be seperate districts, though they may not be easily discernable to the average person walking around. I don't think it really matters if you call them seperate or one in the same. The main thing to keep in mind is that DT greenville has been extremely successful in it's remake, and that it offers most of what the majarity of people look for. Does it really matter if it's attractions are in more isolated identifiable pockets throughout DT or right beside each other? It seems to me that as long as the peices of the puzzle are there, they're usable, desirable, and promote further growth; the layout is basically irrelevant. It that light, all of our big 3 DTs, though very different, have a lot of great assets, and continue to grow. :thumbsup:

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There's no need to be so sensitive or defensive. The revival of this thread was to check up on progress of the past 3 years and see what people's views and visions for the future may be now, as opposed to in 2005. Maybe some people are happy with the way things are now? Personally I'm discussing Columbia because I don't want to be seen as having civic pride. Apparently it's been taken the wrong way and looked down upon in the past... :) ....
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The topic was revived to follow urban developments that have occurred over the past three years in two of South Carolina's most important cities and lively downtowns. Personally, I think things have remained civil. I also think a good comparison is worthy of discussion because it can reveal elements that can enhance a city. We know leaders from both regions of SC read this forum and the drive behind the people who post at UP is a strong force capable of making change locally alone.

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So far, I think the discussion has been fruitful and informative. Spartan and I will make sure that it continues to be as this is a topic worth exploring IMO.

Since we've been talking a bit about the storefronts on the upper end of Main as the stretch that carries the most potential for street-level activity in the future, here are some shots to show what we've been talking about.

These buildings are along the 1600 block of Main, which is in the middle of streetscaping. Hopefully visual improvements--signage upgrades, facade restorations, etc.--will occur in the near future. A mix of uses that encourage pedestrian activity after hours should also be sought after here.

MainStshops.jpg

These buildings are along the 1700 block, right across from the Richlad County Courthouse. Some pretty attractive storefronts are along this block, and some have vacancies. To make them more pedestrian friendly, some renovations would probably have to occur on the ground floor to visually open the shopfronts up:

MainStbldgs5.jpg

MainStbldgs2.jpg

MainStbldgs.jpg

MainStbldgs3.jpg

MainStbldgs4.jpg

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The traffic signals are being replaced. Pictures of the completed blocks show the new traffic lights and posts. Parking meters are a controversial subject. City council thinks the city can't do without the revenue from money in the meters and parking tickets. I think they should do as Rock Hill has done; they have no parking meters downtown, although they do have 2-hour parking there as I recall. Pistachio trees and oaks will be planted along the stretch of storefronts in Krazeeboi's photos, as in the three blocks that have been completed. They are so lush and beautifully shaped.

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City council thinks the city can't do without the revenue from money in the meters and parking tickets. I think they should do as Rock Hill has done; they have no parking meters downtown, although they do have 2-hour parking there as I recall.
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I don't really see a problem with the meters downtown. During the weekdays, when meters are enforced, Main St is full of people and it's hard to find a parking space. They are not enforced in the evenings and on the weekends, and that is when Main St loses some life.

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My position is as follows:

  • Free parking creates traffic. People cruise the streets to look for free parking, thus creating unnecessary congestion. Think of it like any university's parking lot. Its all free, and you get the "vulture" phenomenon. Everyone wants that great spot closest to campus. It goes back to the old adage, "why pay for something when you can get it for free?"

  • The reason Skyliner and I go to garages first is because we know there will be a convenient, protected parking space. The fact that there are people who do this first is probably because they know its an exercise in futility to look for a parking space on Main Street. I, personally, have never found one. Why is that? Its because the spaces are free, so if someone finds one of these coveted spaces they are taken immediately. Most of the people driving on Main St at any given time are likely doing so on the off chance that they might find that free spot while they go to the garage, and others are just cruising around downtown specifically to find that free spot, regardless of where it is.

  • Lets change the scenario. Lets assume that all on street parking is metered. Now we know that in order to go downtown you're going to have to pay something to park. How does that impact the mentality of drivers? It creates a "parking equilibrium" so to speak. The meters change behavior. People are now more likely to go to the first space they see and walk to their destination. There will still be some traffic looking for space that is closer to their destination, but it would be significantly less. Garages then become much more appealing to the masses as a first resort because you know that the location of your space is guaranteed and each individual can relate to how that impacts their trip to their respective destination.

  • There is not a magical "price" figure. Prices on parking meters should be set to produce the optimal amount of turnover depending on the location, market, and time of day. In some places it should be lower in others it should be higher. At certain times of the day it would be higher and at other times lower. It may even be free at other times. I have read that the goal should be a pricing structure that keeps the empty spaces at about 15%, or approximately 1 out of every 7. The objective is to use pricing to regulate the market demand for parking.

  • In Greenville, Main Street is a highly desirable location to park, so its price would be set higher than the garages. Other streets would cost less depending on their distance to Main Street. If people deem it important enough they will pay more to park closer to their destination (Main Street in this instance). If its not as important they will park a little further away and pay less money. Maybe there could be some free parking on the edges of downtown for those who refuse to pay. Again, the objective is to use pricing to encourage more efficient use of parking within downtown.

  • Columbia's strategy for downtown is going to have to be different than Greenville's. Its also much more complex because you have to deal with USC, state government and a large CBD and a less desirable destination for the average visitor (I'm talking about Main St compared to Greenville) along with the Vista being the closest entertainment "destination." Most spaces on Main Street in Columbia are already metered, but the garages are hard to find, and in some cases (not all) they feel old and poorly lit. Columbia needs to spruce up its older garages and sign them better. In order to encourage people to come to Main Street it may work to offer free parking in the garages on the weekends at perhaps at night and advertise it. The idea, again, is to regulate demand with pricing and encourage more efficient use of parking spaces. Parking in The Vista should be priced higher than on Main Street and the garages should be less than both. Parking around USC would be priced higher during class hours, less when they aren't in session.

  • Now here is the kicker, with priced parking it may actually encourage people to use transit if they are planning to stay for a significant amount of time. With transit, you pay a flat rate, you know exactly where you're going to end up, and you don't have to cruise around looking for parking. That's assuming transit operates at night though, which is an entirely separate topic.

The main problem with my position is that people have become accustomed to the notion that free parking is an inalienable right, and most people presume that charging for parking will drive away a customer base. It might piss off a few suburbanites, but if the destination is popular enough that you have a parking problem then you won't loose any customer base, and you'll probably see an increase in business since the spaces will turn over more frequently.

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