Charlotte: South Park stuff

[pompeyjohnson]

I hate to sound like I'm starting up again but it does sound like Raleigh vs. Charlotte a little. Lets compare Charlotte to another city like............Winston-Salem! It has a large downtown. I'm probably sure it has more office space then Raleigh even though Raleigh is larger.

[JunktionFET]

I hate to sound like I'm starting up again but it does sound like Raleigh vs. Charlotte a little. Lets compare Charlotte to another city like............Winston-Salem! It has a large downtown. I'm probably sure it has more office space then Raleigh even though Raleigh is larger.

Such a comparison would be even more difficult. Though Winston-Salem and Greensboro are growing, neither place was subject to the turbocharged rapid growth that Charlotte and Raleigh experienced... therefore Winston and G'boro lack that particular sensation that gives Charlotte and Raleigh the little bit of familiarity they share. Also, the Winston-Salem city limits are quite small in comparison, as is the quantity of traffic.

[Raleigh-NC]

monsoon: It sounds to me that South Park has great potential. The fact that it is suburban, doesn't remove the chances of creating another downtown for Charlotte. I don't remember driving around there (even though I am sure I have passed near it), but from the aerial photo it appears that with some good planning and some serious developers behind, South Park may surprise many people. I have to revisit my thoughts after a few years, but the more you guys talk about it, the more future I see for South Park. Maybe I am too optimistic Next time I visit Charlotte, I will definitely drive by that area and take a look.

[uptownliving]

Style, there originally was a Yeild sign when they first opened that merging lane...however there were too many wrecks, so they made it a Stop sign.

If you know all the alternate routes around SouthPark then traffic is not all that bad. I lived in the area for about 20 years, and hardly ever got stuck in a traffic jam...there were plenty to get stuck in, don;t get me wrong...I just knew the less congested routes to get me around the jams.

[JunktionFET]

I think I know what Raleigh-NC is trying to say... and if I have it right, I tend to agree.

South Park has "redevelopment" potential because of its location and its existing corporate and retail base. It is actually near one of the denser areas of South Charlotte (which isn't saying much, but it's a start).

The office space and the collection of buildings in a small area, a few of which could be considered hi-rises, combined with additional growth and infill, could someday turn South Park into Charlotte's geographic "downtown", complimenting "uptown". But now, no one considers it as such. Who knows what the future will bring. Presently, it is decidedly suburban in layout.

Atlanta's Buckhead is similarly upscale, but it features an actual nightlife of sorts, and a host of residential hi-rises. Despite the fact that it has a pretty impressive skyline, I don't think anyone would think of Buckhead as a downtown or a midtown for that matter.

South Park once had its own mini-bus system, an experiment of CATS... however it proved very unsuccessful. No LRT lines are planned to run through South Park, and there are no freeways nearby. So really, the area is a transportation nightmare at peak travel times.

A Huntersville-esque neo-urban village would be a great addition, as it might attract some pro-urban/pro-transit people to the area. There is already a village style shopping center with an apartment/condo complex adjacent, but that doesn't offer the same appeal as a true mixed-use village IMO.

Speaking of which, I hope the North Hills redevelopment project in Raleigh retains a close-knit mixed use model... that would be superb.

[uptownliving]

NorffCarolina...PhilipsPlace actually has the residential on top of the shops...can't get anymore mixed use than that...If anything, Birkdale Village is just Philips Place on steroids. Also, the new Allen Tate HQ which was built next to Philips Place has retail on the first floor...then the Allen Tate HQ....then residential on top...again...mixed use.

monsoon...for a whole year I commutted from my parents house off of Carmel Rd. to the Seneca Place office building on Park Rd. In the morning I just took Fairveiw, then Colony Rd over to Woodlawn, then left at the Taco Bell into the office park...the morning commute was always quite easy for some reason...I was at the office usually at 8am so it took me about 10 min to get there.

In the afternoon I took Woodlawn, over to Colony, over to Sharon View...I would not take Fairview as it tends to back up in the afternoons.

I don't believe Colony Rd existed when you lived there, it has made a huge difference for commuters in and around SouthPark.

Also, I don't think that SouthPark has peaked...there is a large parcel of land across from the "Twin Towers" on Fairview that is already zoned for mixed use. Don't forget that the Mall itself is still undergoing over $100M in renovations which won't be complete for at least a year.

Now, long term way down the road SouthPark will suffer from the lack of transit that other areas of the metro will be thriving on.

[JunktionFET]

NorffCarolina...PhilipsPlace actually has the residential on top of the shops...can't get anymore mixed use than that...If anything, Birkdale Village is just Philips Place on steroids. Also, the new Allen Tate HQ which was built next to Philips Place has retail on the first floor...then the Allen Tate HQ....then residential on top...again...mixed use.

Also, I don't think that SouthPark has peaked...there is a large parcel of land across from the "Twin Towers" on Fairview that is already zoned for mixed use. Don't forget that the Mall itself is still undergoing over $100M in renovations which won't be complete for at least a year.

Wow, I didn't know that. I turned around in there once and saw the retail, but never knew residential was available over the retail. That's the place with the movie theatre and all, right?

[urban designer]

My 2 cents... I think of Buckhead as the "center" of an edge city...IMHO I do consider it a downtown and sad to say, much more of a downtown in the functional sense of the word than most "downtowns" are today.

Also, I hope that the pattern at Southpark ~ nearly identical to Buckhead ~ will continue to evolve, becoming more dense and pedestrian-friendly.

Norff, how do you to get to Raleigh>? I travel every weekend too...from Huntersville to Wake Forest...go I-85 to Durham Freeway to I-540? 2.5 hours, 163 miles door-to-door. Any ideas for making this trip quicker?!?

[uptownliving]

Wow, I didn't know that. I turned around in there once and saw the retail, but never knew residential was available over the retail. That's the place with the movie theatre and all, right?

Yep...thats the one.

[JunktionFET]

My 2 cents... I think of Buckhead as the "center" of an edge city...IMHO I do consider it a downtown and sad to say, much more of a downtown in the functional sense of the word than most "downtowns" are today.

Also, I hope that the pattern at Southpark ~ nearly identical to Buckhead ~ will continue to evolve, becoming more dense and pedestrian-friendly.

Norff, how do you to get to Raleigh>? I travel every weekend too...from Huntersville to Wake Forest...go I-85 to Durham Freeway to I-540? 2.5 hours, 163 miles door-to-door. Any ideas for making this trip quicker?!?

I used to take I85 to I40, but I find that freeway driving is quite stressful for me now. I now usually take NC49 to US64. It is a slower drive overall, but it saves about 40 miles distance.

[uptownliving]

That drive is scenic in parts as well....it will be nicer once they get more of it 4 lanes.

[Raleigh-NC]

UrbanDesigner: we should all get together some time. I know that NorffCarolina gets to visit the Triangle often, so we should organize something. We can all share our visions and ideas, plus it will build unity among NC forumers. Sundays are the best days for me, if it works for you guys. If you need to return on that day, then we can grab lunch, or even early dinner.

[pompeyjohnson]

Count Me in......................It may be difficult because of our jobs and hectic schedules but it can be done! I'm all for it.

[pompeyjohnson]

AH! HA!...................................THAT'S IT! North Hills is a premature baby right...........it's a fetus that hasn't been formed into a baby. Once its finished, it will be similar to South Park (kinna?)

[Raleigh-NC]

PompeyJohnson: North Hills is only a part of what I think will evolve to something bigger and more urban. Six Forks Rd (north of the Beltline) is beginning to take shape, with several mid-to-high-rises. While there is only one major residential project (12 stories, if I am not mistaken), the area has a few buildings and some reasonable density. With the addition of the New North Hills, it will look much better than before. There are more plans for urbanity, but I won't hold my breath, until the completion of New North Hills.

[Neo]

Here are a couple pictures of Southpark's skyline from DT Charlotte...

[uptownliving]

I will be in Raleigh this Saturday...I will be downtown getting drunk.

[uptownliving]

Ya'll really need to come spend a weekend in Charlotte, casue ya'll keep on trying to make all these comparisons that don't work...SouthPark to RTP...North Hills to SouthPark...etc etc. Once you came to Charlotte, and experienced it, then it would be nice to hear your impressions.

[JunktionFET]

AH! HA!...................................THAT'S IT! North Hills is a premature baby right...........it's a fetus that hasn't been formed into a baby. Once its finished, it will be similar to South Park (kinna?)

Mmmmm, not really. Sorry... Keep trying! You're doing great...

For real though, the city of Raleigh doesn't have anything quite the same as South Park. It has bits and pieces of South Park sort of scattered about. It would be better to compare stuff like the old neighborhoods up Ridge Rd or Dixie Tr in Raleigh to the Elizabeth district in Charlotte. Or Hillsborough St (the part closer to DT) to Central Ave in Charlotte.

One reason why comparisons seldom work is the way in which each city is laid out. Believe it or not, Charlotte seems to focus more on a "district" layout, like mini-boroughs in a way.

In Raleigh, lines are blurred more... though it could still adopt such a layout if it wanted to (would take some getting-used-to though). It already has a little bit of one going on.

Some of the bigger names in Charlotte are: Ballantyne, South Park, Myers Park, Eastland, North Charlotte, NoDa, West Charlotte, Elizabeth and Midtown, Uptown, SouthEnd, Plaza-Midwood, Dilworth, University City (and URP), and there are some others as well.

Sometimes "South Charlotte" is used as a substitute for more specific names, much like "North Raleigh" could be anywhere from Crabtree Mall, to Leith Mercedes-Benz (that's a big distance).

At times you hear people referring to these names as if they are small towns themselves... such as "there's this cool restaurant in Dilworth", or "I bet everyone in Ballantyne has their electricity back now"

Raleigh does have a bit of that going on, but it is limited: Downtown (which is divided into sub-districts), North Hills area, North Raleigh, Hayes Barton(/Five Points), perhaps a few more.

Downtown is divided up into Glenwood South(/Power station district), Warehouse District, Government district, City Market, Historic Oakwood, maybe something else.

[Raleigh-NC]

NorffCarolina, I will have to agree with you, and add that Raleigh is half the size of Charlotte. This means that a lot of changes happen when a city crosses the 0.5 million people barrier. I did not see Charlotte when it was approaching 320,000 people, so I can't really draw any conclusions, but I saw Raleigh growing for the last 12 years, and it is amazing how much the mentality has changed.

Also, I do not like the word "comparison" when referring to South Park and RTP, etc. I never meant to compare, but rather find out whether a similar path is in the minds of the powers behind South Park. In other words, could South Park function as a research center? My intention was not to find out whether South Park actually looks like RTP; the aerial photo demonstrates [clearly] the opposite.

Anyway, I am not in favor of suburban office parks. I like South Park's layout and I see the potential. Raleigh can create similar functionality along Glenwood Ave, Six Forks Rd and Wake Forest/Falls of Neuse Rd, and possibly along Blue Ridge Rd. Of course, I am referring to small parts of those streets and not 5-mile long strips. The problem is that there are some shopping centers and single-story residences along those roads, which can present a problem, but there is great hope. Charlotte [naturally] has the bigger city feel in terms of construction. While its skyline will never be matched by any other city in North Carolina, there is good chance to create denser, mixed-use areas in every major NC metro, to the point that some resemblence to the Queen City can be visible. I am not talking about lack of personality, but merely about creating South Park-like areas outside the centers of the cities; in functionality, not appearance.

[pompeyjohnson]

That same concept happened in Durham around South Square. Even though the mall is gone the area it is still refered as "South Square". The area has some suburban midrise offices. The only high rise in the South Square area is Durham's tallest, The University tower.

On the other hand, I beleive that the SouthPoint area is taking that route. South Durham is already being refered to as Southpoint ,in close proximity, to the mall.

the new office clomplexes that are being built has southpoint somewhere in its name. The stripmall across the street is called southpoint Crossing, they just built an apartment complex that is named The Lofts of Brookshire at South Point. So malls do create cities with in there area. (If that is safe to say)

[Raleigh-NC]

monsoon: Thanks for your reply... this is the kind of stuff I want to know. On a positive tone, while RTP maintains its rural character, things are changing outside it. I do not anticipate much retail and residential inside RTP, but what's happening outside shows the direction this area will take. If the Triangle Metro Center gets delivered, as promised, and succeeds, I expect more urban form of development surrounding RTP, but not within it. We are not talking about high density, true city feel development, but merely some additional mixed-use. Brier Creek is one of the prime examples; it may be a [still developing] "suburb" of Raleigh, but it's closer to RTP, and provides one of the many retail centers in the vicinity. Personally, I don't care about Brier Creek, and the only reason I go there is to shop at BJ's, or out of curiosity. True, that shopping center is far better than most in the area, but it is still carries a suburban "odor". They had a chance to make it really good and they blew it. The only "positive" thing about it, is the proximity to RTP and the airport. They actually have plans for lots of office space, and this may become like a mini South Park, from what I gather (minus the mall), but we are far away from that day to even make speculations... let alone comparisons.

PS: I know that Brier Creek has no similarities to South Park. I just let my imagination go wild

[Nostyle]

Update on Ayrsley...The main shops along Tryon are pretty much complete, at least on the outside. Several businesses have already opened and others will be opening soon. The YMCA is currently under construction, as the framework is already in place. The residential construction is the last thing to be developed, from what I understand, and I have not seen a hint of that yet.

Also in that area is a new Applebee's across the street, McAllister's Deli, and Starbucks that just opened. As you'd expect with an interstate development, this area is attracting every chain you can think of.

[urban designer]

monsoon: Thanks for your reply... this is the kind of stuff I want to know. On a positive tone, while RTP maintains its rural character, things are changing outside it. I do not anticipate much retail and residential inside RTP, but what's happening outside shows the direction this area will take. If the Triangle Metro Center gets delivered, as promised, and succeeds, I expect more urban form of development surrounding RTP, but not within it. We are not talking about high density, true city feel development, but merely some additional mixed-use. Brier Creek is one of the prime examples; it may be a [still developing] "suburb" of Raleigh, but it's closer to RTP, and provides one of the many retail centers in the vicinity. Personally, I don't care about Brier Creek, and the only reason I go there is to shop at BJ's, or out of curiosity. True, that shopping center is far better than most in the area, but it is still carries a suburban "odor". They had a chance to make it really good and they blew it. The only "positive" thing about it, is the proximity to RTP and the airport. They actually have plans for lots of office space, and this may become like a mini South Park, from what I gather (minus the mall), but we are far away from that day to even make speculations... let alone comparisons.

PS: I know that Brier Creek has no similarities to South Park. I just let my imagination go wild

I was the city staff person responsible for reviewing the Brier Creek plans. It was a struggle...as everything seems to be in Raleigh, but trust me, what it is is a lot better than what they wanted to do out there but the fights over Brier Creek and other Raleigh-area projects are the reason I left the RTP region. The fight to create good, new, urban places was just too much. Frankly, I love the Triangle and it's (still fairly) unique collection of cities, but I also experienced firsthand the most troublesome problem facing the Triangle..."too many cooks in the kitchen". Is this bad in the long run? I think the juries still out on this b/c the Triangle (as Charlotte) is just now becoming major global urban players. In the end, I hope that the Triangle and Charlotte (and GSO) continue to evolve as dramatically different and distinct places.

[Raleigh-NC]

UrbanDesigner: thanks for your input on Brier Creek. I can only imagine what these idiots could have done if some people did not react at all. The project is a failure, anyway, at least in my own eyes. The most hopeful development may appear in West Raleigh, where the plans already look more urban and call for better conencted neighborhoods. Quite frankly, I doubt things will go as planned, but several years ago we could not even dream of such vision. I have little hope for true urban feel, but even that takes a long time to become reality, anyway. I don't know during which period you worked here, but there seems to be a different attitude towards planning these days. While still have a long way to go (all cities do, anyway), I can see the rare opportunity to focus on the center and give Raleigh a more urban feel. All right, this is miniscule when comparing to much larger cities, but there is still hope. The real estate business slowdown has helped a bit. Please, feel free to point out all the negative things you encountered during your employment in Raleigh. You can do so here, or send me a message, so we don't populate this thread with non-South Park related info.