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HARTFORD - Once (and Future?) Great City


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The mall in Providence is far from suburban. It fits into the fabric of the city and has retail and restaurants that open to the main road. The main reason it is succesful is because it's NOT a suburban mall.

Whatever it is, I think the last thing we want in Hartford is a large building with one roof. I know I'd much rather have small seperate retail/residential buildings with different facades accompanied by small specialty shops on the ground floors.

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The mall in Providence is far from suburban. It fits into the fabric of the city and has retail and restaurants that open to the main road. The main reason it is succesful is because it's NOT a suburban mall.

Yep ... Providence (from what I'm told) was a big dump 15 years ago. The city only started to turn around after the huge projects like the river relocation, the convention center, and the mall were completed. Another big part of downtown's revitalization has been Johnson & Wales and now Rhode Island School of Design's investment in downtown, which increases the foot traffic 24 hours a day with students that have disposable (mommy and daddy's) money to spend. If I was God, I would not do what Providence has been doing as I think some of what they do (like the ever popular Waterfire) is tacky, but it's working.

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A mall is a mall is a mall. Both Providence and Waterbury have big mallls in the center of town. This presents retailers a dilemna and they usually choose the safe mall alternative.

Hartfford needs to offer an urban experience if it is to compete with retail like West Farms or Buckland. Hartford should continue to pursue a street scape strategy. If it is successful, it will be the only true urban environment between Boston and NYC.

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A mall is a mall is a mall. Both Providence and Waterbury have big mallls in the center of town. This presents retailers a dilemna and they usually choose the safe mall alternative.

Hartfford needs to offer an urban experience if it is to compete with retail like West Farms or Buckland. Hartford should continue to pursue a street scape strategy. If it is successful, it will be the only true urban environment between Boston and NYC.

But how do you get from ground zero to that? I think Providence is starting to really come around with all the condos and the Westminster Street retail popping up. I don't know how easy it would be to get a Nordstrom or Filene's to open up downtown, or how you would convince the people to go shopping downtown when the malls offer convenience that downtown cannot replicate. Hartford will need something to draw people downtown in the way the mall and Waterfire have in Providence.

Between the mall, waterfire, the bars and clubs, Providence Performing Arts Center, the Convention Center, and the Dunkin Donuts center all being within a 5-10 minute walk of each other Providence seems to have reached that critical mass needed to take the next step. Growth there seems to be really accelerating, with at least a half dozen condo TOWERS probably going up in the next few years... this, along with hotel and office projects, will only accelerate the retail growth already going on downcity in Providence.

With Hartford's enormous corporate presence and the fact that the state runs a budget surplus (as opposed to RI's shortfall), it should be the #2 city in New England not too long from now.

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A mall is a mall is a mall. Both Providence and Waterbury have big mallls in the center of town. This presents retailers a dilemna and they usually choose the safe mall alternative.

Hartfford needs to offer an urban experience if it is to compete with retail like West Farms or Buckland. Hartford should continue to pursue a street scape strategy. If it is successful, it will be the only true urban environment between Boston and NYC.

I totally agree. A mall will not help the retail experience in downtown Hartford.

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Hartford's real missing component has been downtown residential.

Hartford's downtown performing venues include, the Dodge Music theater, The HCC (Madonna last night), the Bushnell Theater and the Bushnell Auditorium, the Riverfront Plaza ampitheater, The Hartford Stage and Theaterworks.

Three major museums, the Old State House, The Wadsworth and the under construction Science Museum are less than two blocks apart.

People have been coming downtown for years. That isn't the problem. Turning dowtown into a true 24/7 enviroment will jumpstart the retail.

In the next year, there will be 262 units in Hartford 21. Antoher 50 in the Metropolitan. 125 at Sage Allen. Throw in a new hotel in the old Bond Hotel. That's a lot of feet on the street in a very small area. If it's not critical mass, it's darn close.

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I totally agree. A mall will not help the retail experience in downtown Hartford.

But it could make downtown more of a destination. I know people will say it's been tried and failed before in Hartford, but Providence's mall is a huge success that makes downtown a much better place to live or visit. You could go to the mall for Dave & Busters or a movie, or even to shop, and then head downtown to go have some beer and pub food at Trinity, see a show, or whatever. There are little cafes and shops popping up downcity in Providence that you would not normally see at the mall. I think Providence made the whole urban mall thing work. Doesn't Boston have an indoor shopping mall near Downtown Crossing? Montreal's underground city is a large shopping mall and they seem to have great citylife on the streets.

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An urban mall would work well in Hartford if you brought stores like somebody mentioned that are not in the area. Certainly, the wealth in the immediate area could support it, but you can't get away with an enclosed mall and surface parking. The days of downtown streets packed with storefront retail are gone. They may work in much bigger cities like NYC and Chicago where tourists are drawn to a particular area. However, in any smaller city like Htfd. or Prov., it becomes obsolete. The old downtown cores can become home to the arts, enertainment, residential, and service sector.

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With Hartford's enormous corporate presence and the fact that the state runs a budget surplus (as opposed to RI's shortfall), it should be the #2 city in New England not too long from now.

It already is. Anyways, the Civic Center Mall was very successful initially too, and look how that turned out. This isn't to say that Providence's will fail, I really don't know enough about their Mall to comment. I think another Mall in downtown Hartford would be the stupidest thing a developer could do at this point....

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You're never going to have a downtown mall in Hartford, Westfarms and Buckland are too big/dominant in the market. People in suburban Hartford are too scared of the city to go shopping there (your typical mall-goer that is). Providence didn't have an upscale mall like westfarms in the area previous to Providence Place, Warwick and Rhode Island Mall are not even on the same level, E. Square in Attleboro isn't even up to par. The P. Place mall opened when I was a soph. @ PC, that mall has done wonders for downtown Providence, it one of the main attractions there, it draws people in and opens to the rest of the city, every single time I go there, we leave the mall to walk around downcity, get something to eat, drink, etc. I was there twice last week, and I live closer to Hartford, that says something. I am all for Hartford's success, but don't turn this into yet another Providence vs. Hartford thread, it's like comparing apples to oranges. Hartford may have corporate power, but Providence has livability and a pull to it that Hartford just does not have at this time. In order for Hartford to have a true comeback, the headlines need to change from violence, violence, violence. Hartford has awesome old architecture that is just begging to have a rehab, all of the pieces are there, they just need to work on the puzzle.

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I am all for Hartford's success, but don't turn this into yet another Providence vs. Hartford thread, it's like comparing apples to oranges. Hartford may have corporate power, but Providence has livability and a pull to it that Hartford just does not have at this time. In order for Hartford to have a true comeback, the headlines need to change from violence, violence, violence. Hartford has awesome old architecture that is just begging to have a rehab, all of the pieces are there, they just need to work on the puzzle.

I'm not trying to make it a vs. thread, but it's pretty much accepted that Providence is ahead of Hartford in terms of revitalization, and that Providence's low was much worse. Why not look at another city in the region and see what they've done to be a success? I could also bring up New Haven (which from what I understand truely is comparing apples and oranges with all Yale's done), but I know less about New Haven than I do about Hartford. The reason Providence has "livability", while at the same time no downtown grocery store (yet), is because of the investments the state and city made over the past decades. Hartford's already got Hartford 21 nearing completion and its still in the infancy of its revitalization. I was thinking about the other malls when I posted about it and really don't know how feasible it would be given the reasons you've stated; there has to be something Hartford can do to attract people to its downtown the way that the mall does in Providence.

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I think a shopping area like Newbury Street with shops mentioned above would work in DT. I worked in retail up in Avon while going to school and I can't tell you how many times mother and daughter pairs would come in and ask me about Diesel, FC, AX, etc. and how they would drive from Avon to NYC or Boston to get what they wanted. I don't know about you guys, but I call that demand! If they put in a Diesel in the new retail section of H21 and maybe a FC or AX in somewhere else close to it with other specialty shops....you'd suddenly see ALOT more people DT because many students and 20 somethings eat that stuff up like they're hot cakes. Along with the new stores open up a trendy outdoor cafe DT with the look much like Braza, but on a smaller scale. These things mixed with what's already going on would make for a very lively DT.

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I have been a big advocate of retail downtown that is more upscale and not your typical national mall chains. A/X, Diesel, FC, H&M, Kenneth Cole, Room & Board, Virgin Records, etc. are the types of retail that will succeed and stick downtown. They're urban and trendy and not too expensive. Another GAP, another Bannana Republic, another Ann Taylor etc. is not going to cut it and will fail just like they did at the Civic Center and at Pratt Street years ago.

Connecticut's towns possess enormous wealth and can easily support these retailers. This is the type of retail needed to draw suburbanites and their dollars into Hartford and to make downtown a destination.

I agree with this comment, most of the retail in this area seems to be either big box or national chains that are everywhere. I'm sure there are people that look for Diesel, Mexx, Zara etc. but are limited to stores with a preppy image at best. These shops simply do not belong in a suburban mall and I know the market is definately there. I know several 20 something year old girls who make trips to Urban Outfitters in New Haven or to NYC and Boston just to buy these brands simply because we do not have them in the area. On a sidenote the lack of these stores might be why I was so shocked to see people here still wearing the same styles and haircuts of the late 90s. Many people in the area are not the most fashion forward.

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I agree, I wasn't trying to say there was no hope for Hartford, I just don't see a downtown mall happening there. The state of Connecticut has to make an investment in Hartford, and it has to extend past the Convention Center. Sports would provide a draw to downtown, but you're not going to take UConn games completely away from campus, it's not fair to the students. PC basketball is huge in RI due to the fact that RI doesn't have any pro sports teams. PC is the next best thing, URI doesn't even come close in terms of fan base. The city is alive when the UConn teams have a game at the civic center. Hartford should try to capture some upscale retail in the new projects, something that can compete with WHC and Evergreen Walk. New Haven is a totally different city, Hartford needs to find its own niche, it can't be everything to everybody, CT is to big and too split apart for that. Providence works because it dominates RI from Woonsocket to Westerly and into eastern CT. Hartford has to compete with New Haven, Bridgeport, Stamford, Norwalk, etc. New Haven has the NYC pull to it, it has Yale, it has the arts, it has transportation links, it is in a better location. New Haven could be light years beyond what it is even now, the problem is that the state of CT is a suburban state, it has no urban character to it. Like it or not, this state is connected to NYC, NYC has a pull on the southern part of the state that Hartford will never have. Hell, the main news stations in CT barely mention the SW part of the state because they know and we all know that it is NY metro market. CT has enjoyed this connection to NYC forever, thank God we have it. But this connection has caused our cities to suffer for lack of investment. Another problem was urban removal/renewal, depending on how you look at it. It's too bad that the state had the money to fund these horrible projects that destroyed downtowns and erased ethnic neighborhoods. Providence was lucky it didn't have money to "revitalize", they have a huge collection of historic buildings in the downtown core that remain. A city will feel more "livable" when it's scaled to humans, while I love skyscrapers as much as anyone else on this site, there is something to be said for Boston's Back Bay neighborhoods. I apologize for the ramblings, waiting to get off work for the night.

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Look, this is the Hartford board. Why do all the Providence guys have such thin skins? The bottom line is that Providence isn't in Hartford's league, from a business, cultural or historic perspective. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.

Compare the economies or cultural institutions or historic treasures in any way you want. Hartford comes out on top.

But enough is enough. Why do these Providence people have to come over here and spoil our discussion about our city? We don't go to the Providence board. Why do you insist on botheriing us here?

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People in suburban Hartford are too scared of the city to go shopping there

I grew up in the Hartford area, and lived there until I was 21 and visit frequently. Hartford has a bad image of being violent, however downtown has no more crime in its downtown than any other city. I never hear anyone saying they are afraid to go to a downtown event, in fact most college aged kids go to Hartford for a night out on the bars in this area, Providence is just too far on that crappy Route 6.

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You really think that a middle aged woman from glastonbury is going to go shopping downtown when all she sees on Ch. 3 & 4 is murder, shootings, and the city basically begging for a "gang truce"? I just don't see it happening. And by the way, why does one have to be a "Providence Guy" or a "Hartford Guy" I happen to be a taxpayer in the state of Connecticut that went to college and lived in Providence/Pawtucket for six years, I am living and working in Connectiuct right now. My city is at the end of Route 2, the sign says Hartford, up there is says Norwich, don't accuse me of trying to bash Hartford and raise up Providence, I am stating my opnion just like everyone else on here. I have no fear of Hartford, my family lived on Weathersfield Ave for decades. Relax, it's a discussion, not a pissing contest.

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Look, this is the Hartford board. Why do all the Providence guys have such thin skins? The bottom line is that Providence isn't in Hartford's league, from a business, cultural or historic perspective. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.

Compare the economies or cultural institutions or historic treasures in any way you want. Hartford comes out on top.

But enough is enough. Why do these Providence people have to come over here and spoil our discussion about our city? We don't go to the Providence board. Why do you insist on botheriing us here?

Calm down. I'm from New London County, which is right between the two cities. PCGrad02 is also from New London County. I'm sorry if I made this feel like a vs. thread to you but you cannot dispute that Providence has made great strides. I am careful to maintain that I think Hartford has a lot more potential than Providence does but the fact is that Providence is further along in its revitalization than Hartford and I'd bet that Providence has a better national reputation than Hartford. I'm not trying to bash Hartford, it's the honest truth. What's wrong with comparing Hartford to a city that was in a much worse state than Hartford is in now and has come back?

I'm not comparing the historic treasures or cultural institutions, and I have said that Hartford's architecture is wonderful (I "bash" Providence's architecture now and then over in the Providence forums, I honestly think it's not too special). Some Hartford people do go to the Providence board now and then, btw. I'm really from neither city, and I know Providence a lot better than Hartford mainly because I went to college there. How has the discussion been spoiled?

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You really think that a middle aged woman from glastonbury is going to go shopping downtown when all she sees on Ch. 3 & 4 is murder, shootings, and the city basically begging for a "gang truce"? I just don't see it happening. And by the way, why does one have to be a "Providence Guy" or a "Hartford Guy" I happen to be a taxpayer in the state of Connecticut that went to college and lived in Providence/Pawtucket for six years, I am living and working in Connectiuct right now. My city is at the end of Route 2, the sign says Hartford, up there is says Norwich, don't accuse me of trying to bash Hartford and raise up Providence, I am stating my opnion just like everyone else on here. I have no fear of Hartford, my family lived on Weathersfield Ave for decades. Relax, it's a discussion, not a pissing contest.

I work in Simsbury with lots of people just like that and a lot of them go Downtown often for the Bushnell, Hartford Stage, Civic Center events and everything. Many even go just to go and have dinner. If we had more stuff even more of them would come.

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Look, this is the Hartford board. Why do all the Providence guys have such thin skins? The bottom line is that Providence isn't in Hartford's league, from a business, cultural or historic perspective. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.

Compare the economies or cultural institutions or historic treasures in any way you want. Hartford comes out on top.

But enough is enough. Why do these Providence people have to come over here and spoil our discussion about our city? We don't go to the Providence board. Why do you insist on botheriing us here?

I don't understand what's so wrong if people from RI check out what's going on in Hartford. Did you ever think that maybe some people might be interested in the city? Rather than attack people, maybe you should embrace this newfound interest...BTW...there are a few people on here that check out and post on the PVD forum and nobody attacks them or tries to start a vs. thread.

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I don't understand what's so wrong if people from RI check out what's going on in Hartford. Did you ever think that maybe some people might be interested in the city? Rather than attack people, maybe you should embrace this newfound interest...BTW...there are a few people on here that check out and post on the PVD forum and nobody attacks them or tries to start a vs. thread.

I think you need to re-read some of the stuff then, but I digress.

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I think you need to re-read some of the stuff then, but I digress.

I wasn't trying to start anything. If you go to the Rhode Island forums, people are always comparing what the city can be to what Boston already is. I've said that I believe Hartford has a lot of potential.

I don't understand why I was being called thin skinned, I was not the one taking anything personally here. I hope to just put this in the past immediately.

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I work in Simsbury with lots of people just like that and a lot of them go Downtown often for the Bushnell, Hartford Stage, Civic Center events and everything. Many even go just to go and have dinner. If we had more stuff even more of them would come.

Absolutely!!! One night after a WolfPack game, my girl and I walked down to Max's Resturant and the streets where full of people. People that say Hartford is dangerous really need to get out more.

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I am careful to maintain that I think Hartford has a lot more potential than Providence does but the fact is that Providence is further along in its revitalization than Hartford and I'd bet that Providence has a better national reputation than Hartford.

Providence has a better national reputation than Hartford in terms of revitalization, and therefore is more of a "liveable city" at the moment. I don't think any Hartford forumer would argue with that.

On the other hand, Hartford is much more respected nationally as a business/corporate center, and may be in fact more well known because of it. Hartford's a business city.

Providence doesn't match Hartford in terms of business, corporations, GMP, skyline, etc.

Hartford doesn't match Providence in terms of feet on the street, revitalization, and citizens who feel positive about their city.

Both cities have a lot to brag about and just as much to improve.

I've always thought Hartford felt more like a mini New York (I stress MINI), and Providence felt like a mini Boston. Two totally different cities.

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