Should the city annex everything in Greenville

[motonenterprises]

I know that wouldn't and probably couldn't happen, but what do you guys think? Augusta, GA did this a few years ago and thats why it looks so big when you look at the population, but the city proper doesn't look larger than any of the SC big three when you're there. Would this help Greenville? Should other cities in SC do it too? Just another thread to add to the others.

[Spartan]

No. I would be in favor of the cities annexing like NC. The area has to be developed first. I think thats the basic idea anyway. Augusta isnt any bigger than Columbia.

The problem here lies in the state house. In SC there is a city and a county and no inbetween at all. Major legislative changes would have to occur first.

However, if the cities controlled more land, there would be more control over development, and this would likely curb the effects of sprawl somewhat. Cities are required to have zoning and some basic plans if I'm not mistaken.

I think Charleston would be the most likely candidate for a city/county arrangement.

Interesting thread topic

[motonenterprises]

You always have a good explanation behind your opinions. I like that. A lot of our cities seem smaller to those doing research on them because the city populations seem so small. A prime example is: I used to compare Greenwood's city population to the likes of Spartanburg and Greenville when I was in high school, but when you traveled out of Greenwood into Greenville or Spartanburg it was clear to see that they were a lot larger than the populations indicated, which was 2 or 3 times larger. It was clear that it was maybe as much as 10+ times larger.

[Spartan]

Yep. Thats why I try to use UA's to compare cities:

• Charleston: 423,410

• Columbia: 420,537

• Greenville: 302,194

• Spartanburg: 145,058

• Myrtle Beach: 122,984

• Anderson: 70,436

• Rock Hill: 70,007

• Florence: 67,314

The City of Rock Hill has a higher population than the City of Spartanburg, but if you go there its just not as big of a place!

[vicupstate]

Greenville is trying to annex more outlying areas, with some limited success, but it is only commercial areas. Such areas bring in more revenue (thru higher property tax rates and business licenses) than residential areas but obviously don't impact population figures.

It actually can cost more money to provide services to residential areas than they bring in through city property taxes. I think Greenville made a conscious decision to concentrate on improving the areas already in the city rather than expanding into new residential areas.

State annexation laws are very restrictive and other than the Municipal Association, no one is clamoring for changes. Don't expect any changes there.

Enabling legislation is already in place to allow a city-county consolidation in South Carolina. That is what Augusta-Richmond County did. Charleston put the question to a referendum in 1974, where it failed to passed by a wide margin. I think Charleston is not a good candidate for consolidation because there are three major cities there (Chas, North Chas, Mt. Pleasant) now. Back in '74, Mt. Pleasant was tiny and North Chas had just incorporated two years earlier.

Columbia/Richland is the most likely to consolidate of the bigger counties. There has been discussion of it, but it never got past a charter commision. Maybe in 30-40 years or so.

Sumter actually has the best shot in my opinion to consolidate because nearly 40% of the county's population is already in the city. That's a high percentage and city taxes have been largely eliminated by the countywide sales tax there.

[btoy]

IN Charleston if Anything Chalreston could get smaller, when I was living there, there was a push for Folly to Split from Charleston and reincorporate and their was talks about West Ashley incorporateing itself as well.

[vicupstate]

IN Charleston if Anything Chalreston could get smaller, when I was living there, there was a push for Folly to Split from Charleston and reincorporate and their was talks about West Ashley incorporateing itself as well.

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Folly Beach is, and has been a separate city for many decades. West Ashley could not incorporate even if it wanted to. If you look at a recent map of Chas., nearly all of West Ashley has been annexed into Charleston. There are dozens of pockets of still unincorporated areas there, but those are steadily being annexed, and there are not enough continguous residents to form a town any longer.

SOmebody on this forum is good with finding maps, perhaps they can post one of the Charleston city limits.

Actually I expect Charleston to replace Columbia as the biggest SC city in the 2010 census. Charleston has annexed many square miles of undeveloped land, particularly in Berkeley County(Daniel Island, Cainhoy). Development is underway in those areas, which should erase the 10,000 or so population difference between the two cities by 2010. Of course, if Columbia started to annex aggressively that could thwart that prediction, but I think that is unlikely.

[randy1]

IN Charleston if Anything Chalreston could get smaller, when I was living there, there was a push for Folly to Split from Charleston and reincorporate and their was talks about West Ashley incorporateing itself as well.

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Brad, I'm not sure how long its been since you've been in Charleston, but Folly is already its own town and has been for years. West Ashley is already in the city of Charleston and has never been in talsk with splits. In fact, more areas are annexing into the city at tremendous rate.

[btoy]

I lived there for about 8 month I moved back last May. I know they had been incorporated but I thought they had unincorporated and joined Charleston and they wanted to reincorporate. I must have missunderstood. I remeber them talking about it on the Radio while I was down there. I must have understood.

[btoy]

AH, I know where the confusion is. It wasn't Folly beach I was thinking of. It was James Island. But, I still may be wrong, I'll have to look that up.

[btoy]

ya it was James Isalnd I was thinking of, see this article

Article About James Island Incorporation

[jfl25]

Annexation can be a great tool for a city if used properly,but in this case annexing everything is definitly not the right idea. The worst thing a growing city could do is to take that approach. The city needs to be smart and annex areas that will be a asset not a problem area.

[goodbye]

If the city could annex more land, they would. However, since this has become so difficult, the problem of sprawl has spread far beyond its borders.

I believe the city must really focus more seriously on different ways it can attract both visitors and area residents to move (relocate their residence) into downtown. This should also go for the area businesses. While the overall success of our fight against urban sprawl depends on the entire Upstate, the city can play an important role in determining if and when any proper urban development will occur.

Greenville has definitely taken major strides in the right direction, but little has been done to discourage new residents to the area from moving into any of the many cheaply built subdivisions popping/eating up the metropolis and surrounding countryside. These people need the option of reasonably priced residential real estate within the heavier urban dowtown area. I think that in order for this to take place, more high density developments must happen, and at a faster pace.

[Spartan]

ya it was James Isalnd I was thinking of, see this article

Article About James Island Incorporation

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Or you can read about it here at UP in the Coastal Section:

Second Town of James Island Dissolved

[Spartan]

One idea that has been mentioned here as successful is implementing a county sales tax that will be used to lower incometaxes. This lowers city taxes and encourages petitions for annexation. I think someone said Sumter and Florence have done this.

[vicupstate]

One idea that has been mentioned here as successful is implementing a county sales tax that will be used to lower incometaxes. This lowers city taxes and encourages petitions for annexation. I think someone said Sumter and Florence have done this.

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Florence and Sumter have indeed done so, but Charleston and North Charleston have exploited this advantage the most. BTW, it's property, not income taxes. Just to be clear.

[Spartan]

Yeah, thats what I meant to say

[Charleston native]

I think Charleston is not a good candidate for consolidation because there are three major cities there (Chas, North Chas, Mt. Pleasant) now.  Back in '74, Mt. Pleasant was tiny and North Chas had just incorporated two years earlier.

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I disagree on this. I do believe that a merger of Charleston/N. Charleston can be and should be implemented. First of all, it makes sense geographically with the North Area forming off of the Charleston peninsula. Second, both cities have jurisdictional conflicts at the city boundary when a fire or crime takes place. Third, economically, they are very cooperative already.

I believe that Charleston, North Charleston, St. Andrews Public Service District, and James Island PSD should consolidate or merge to form one city of Charleston. Notice, I did NOT say consolidate the whole county, because that is not feasible. But if you consolidated these bureaucracies, you could eliminate the double taxation in counties that all of you have talked about.

[vicupstate]

I disagree on this. I do believe that a merger of Charleston/N. Charleston can be and should be implemented. First of all, it makes sense geographically with the North Area forming off of the Charleston peninsula. Second, both cities have jurisdictional conflicts at the city boundary when a fire or crime takes place. Third, economically, they are very cooperative already.

I believe that Charleston, North Charleston, St. Andrews Public Service District, and James Island PSD should consolidate or merge to form one city of Charleston. Notice, I did NOT say consolidate the whole county, because that is not feasible. But if you consolidated these bureaucracies, you could eliminate the double taxation in counties that all of you have talked about.

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What I meant by saying Charleston was not a good candidate for consolidation, was that it is politically unlikely. I should have been more clear on that. From a benefit standpoint, Charleston is probably the best or second best candidate for consolidation. A large % of the county's population is already in an incorporated city or town, and thus somewhat double taxed.

However, since there are three roughly equal-size cities in Charleston County, it is unlikely IMO that it would consolidate. Too many politicians not to mention bureaucrats would lose their jobs. Too many "local identities" that are firmly established. Consolidation historically has occured in county's where one city is overwhelming dominant in politics and population. Charleston's difficulty with passing the transit sales tax is an example of what I am referring too.

[Spartan]

I disagree on this. I do believe that a merger of Charleston/N. Charleston can be and should be implemented. First of all, it makes sense geographically with the North Area forming off of the Charleston peninsula. Second, both cities have jurisdictional conflicts at the city boundary when a fire or crime takes place. Third, economically, they are very cooperative already.

I believe that Charleston, North Charleston, St. Andrews Public Service District, and James Island PSD should consolidate or merge to form one city of Charleston. Notice, I did NOT say consolidate the whole county, because that is not feasible. But if you consolidated these bureaucracies, you could eliminate the double taxation in counties that all of you have talked about.

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I have thought that the City of Charleston and North Charleston should merge. I don't have any good reason for it other than it is a generally continuous land use between Charleston and N Charleston. The large cities in SC don't bump up against each other like those two do. It seems like it would be a good thing. But like vic said, alot of bureaucrats would loose their jobs.

[Charleston native]

What I meant by saying Charleston was not a good candidate for consolidation, was that it is politically unlikely.  I should have been more clear on that.  From a benefit standpoint, Charleston is probably the best or second best candidate for consolidation.  A large % of the county's population is already in an incorporated city or town, and thus somewhat double taxed. 

However, since there are three roughly equal-size cities in Charleston County, it is unlikely IMO that it would consolidate.  Too many politicians not to mention bureaucrats would lose their jobs.  Too many "local identities" that are firmly established.  Consolidation historically has occured in county's where one city is overwhelming dominant in politics and population.  Charleston's difficulty with passing the transit sales tax is an example of what I am referring too.

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B) I see what you're saying, and I think you would be correct...but I think maybe that consolidating the whole county is too ambitious and too aggressive. There are many people who live in smaller towns such as Ravenel, Sullivan's Island, Folly Beach, Hollywood, Edisto Beach, and Awendaw that don't want to have anything to do with the city. After all, Charleston County is the largest county in the state (land mass) with more than 900 square miles. Mt. Pleasant is also geographically not feasible, although believe it or not, many residents there wouldn't mind being merged with Charleston. Also, Mt. Pleasant has existed almost as long as Charleston, so it has a long history and tradition.

However, merging and consolidating Chas., N. Chas., and public service districts W. Ashley and on James Island (maybe even Johns Island) would be the best case for consolidation. All of these areas are fully integrated with the city, politically, economically, and geographically. Doing that would reduce property taxes and municipal taxes, which would stimulate more economic development! So Spartan's right, I think that version of consolidation makes more sense.

[vicupstate]

B) There are many people who live in smaller towns such as Ravenel, Sullivan's Island, Folly Beach, Hollywood, Edisto Beach, and Awendaw that don't want to have anything to do with the city. After all, Charleston County is the largest county in the state (land mass) with more than 900 square miles.

However, merging and consolidating Chas., N. Chas., and public service districts W. Ashley and on James Island (maybe even Johns Island) would be the best case for consolidation. All of these areas are fully integrated with the city, politically, economically, and geographically.

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Consolidation usually allows for the smaller towns to keep a significant level of self-goverance and identity. Therefore, if Chas. County consolidated, it would not necessarily mean those towns would cease to exist.

Within a few years, I expect the W. Ashley PSD to have been completely annexed by Charleston. If James Island does not succeed in incorporating again, the same will likely happen to the James Island PSD. Therefore, if N. Chas and Chas were to merge, your scenario would come true. That probably won;t happen for several decades, but it is more likely than a full consolidation of Charleston County.

BTW, Charleston is not the largest county. Horry is the largest with 1100+ square miles. Berkeley is second I believe. Colleton and Orangeburg also have over 1000 sq. miles each.

[Spartan]

Indeed. Look at Jacksonville/Duval County. There are 4 other municipalities that exist in Duval County besides Jacksonville: Atlantic Beach, Neptune Beach, Jacksonville Beach, and Baldwin.

Williamsburg is a fairly large county too...

[Charleston native]

BTW, Charleston is not the largest county. Horry is the largest with 1100+ square miles.  Berkeley is second I believe.  Colleton and Orangeburg also have over 1000 sq. miles each.

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Whoops! Thanks for the correction. I know how big Orangeburg County is...it takes forever to get through it on I-26. I did not know Horry County was the largest.

[Charleston native]

Indeed. Look at Jacksonville/Duval County. There are 4 other municipalities that exist in Duval County besides Jacksonville: Atlantic Beach, Neptune Beach, Jacksonville Beach, and Baldwin.

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Oh man, the city that many others should model after! I knew that those towns did decide to still exist, but I think that's because there was a clause which kept total consolidation from becoming permanent.