Which Would You Choose ?

[retorsky]

UCF's admissions standards have been on a sharp incline that isn't about to stop anytime soon. I suggest that you check out the admission standards for the UCF Burnett Honors College.

[GRS328]

^I think it's great UCF is becoming more demanding in their admission criteria (although they almost have no choice, since enrollment is so high as it is). But this is definitely a sign of a university trying to improve. Obviously, good professors, good facilities, etc. are large components of good colleges. But a bright and committed student body is also very much a part of that equation. No one deserves to be denied a higher education. But there are outlets such as community college for those who are not academically ready for university-level work.

[GreenHills]

UCF's admissions standards have been on a sharp incline that isn't about to stop anytime soon. I suggest that you check out the admission standards for the UCF Burnett Honors College.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is pretty amazing that UCF has been able to increase academic standards significantly while almost doubling in size in the last decade. I was thinking about writing a post about how UCF has changed in the last decade. I think UCF had about 22,000 students in 1995 and significantly lower academic standards. When you consider that UCF is probably going to stop growing (at least in terms of the number of students) in a few years when it hits 50,000 students and that there will be less undergrad spots because Hitt wants I believe 20% of students to be grad students (up from something like 13% now), I think you're absolutely right that UCF's academic standards are going to increase. Other factors that will likely lead to UCF becoming even harder to get into include: (1) UCF's constantly improving academic reputation, and (2) the population growth in Florida in general and Central Florida in particular. The relatively fixed number of spots combined with the increasing number of applicants should result in an even more qualified student body.

[Brickell]

Florida needs more state universities all around. UNF, UWF and FGCU probably have some room to grow but the rest are close to maxed out. I never would have gotten into UF at the standards they have today.

Volusia county could use one. It'd be nice to see an agrictultural/rural intensive school in the heartland, maybe Sebring. We could use another school in the Miami metro eventually.

The school crunch is only going to get worse as more and more kids move to Florida. We need to plan them now.

[sunshine]

Orlando have FAMU at downtown. It will be great if they have 50000 students at downtown.

[prahaboheme]

UCF now has an Osceola County branch opening this year right at VCC campus off 192. I suspect they will grow even further into the county.

[GreenHills]

Orlando have FAMU at downtown. It will be great if they have 50000 students at downtown.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Only FAMU Law is downtown. Unless FAMU moves more of its schools downtown (it's much more likely that UCF will move some specialty schools downtown), there will never be more than a couple thousand FAMU students downtown. Actually, even a couple thousand is a greatly exaggerated number. The largest law schools in the country that I can think of are Georgetown and Harvard, and I think they only take about 550 students per year. Most law schools classes are significantly smaller (I'd be surprised if each FAMU class is larger than 200 students).

In general, it's crazy to think there will ever be a college with 50,000 students downtown. UCF is only at 44,000 and I believe it's one of the 10 largest schools in the country. If UCF grows to 50,000, it should be very close to being the largest school in the country. I haven't seen the figures in a while, but last I saw I think the largest schools were Ohio State, UT-Austin, Arizona and Arizona State. Whichever was the largest school, I think it was in the 50-55 thousand range. If you have ever seen these campuses, or even been on the campus of UF or UCF, you'd realize that they are massive and there's no way that a school that large could fit downtown.

P.S. I just did a google search and it appears that the University of Minnesota is the largest school in the country with 50,954 students. UT had been the largest school since 1997. http://www.dailytexanonline.com/news/2004/....U-824430.shtml

[Hisma]

University of Minnesota? Never heard of it, & of all places, Minnesota contains the largest school. Interesting tid-bit... but it's obvious that in terms of universities, size doesn't matter.

[GreenHills]

University of Minnesota?  Never heard of it, & of all places, Minnesota contains the largest school.  Interesting tid-bit... but it's obvious that in terms of universities, size doesn't matter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What, you've never heard of the Golden Gophers? If I follow your logic, because you've never heard of a school, it's not good. Actually, Minnesota is a pretty good school. In the US News rankings it's fairly close to UF. Its professional schools are even better. Its medical school is top-50, and its business and law schools are both ranked in or just outside of the top 20. I also seem to remember Minnesota having a very strong economics department. As for some of the other large schools mentioned, UT is outstanding and one of the best public schools in the country and Ohio State is certainly respectable.

Anyway, to argue that size doesn't matter is simply wrong. A large student body has both positive and negative consequences for a university. It's a complicated issue, but for some universities it makes sense to grow and for others it makes sense to shrink. For example, I believe both UF and UT want to decrease in size to improve their student/teacher ratios and improve their (already impressive) admissions standards. For a school like UCF, it probably makes sense to continue to grow (at least for now). UCF is well on its way to becoming a national university, but it is still lacking facilities which are a prerequisite to being a major university. In order to justify building many of these facilities, UCF needed to grow and create demand for the facilities. Once UCF has fully built its infrastructure, don't be surprised to see UCF try to reduce its size for the same reasons that UF and UT are currently reducing their sizes.

[sunshine]

Columbia in Manhatthan, George Washington U in DC, Howard U at Georgetown and NYU in Manhatthan are some of the school that I can think of that are in urban environment.

UF is very close to downtown Gainesville, the city should have take advantage of that.

[Hisma]

ahh, I've heard of the gophers

When I went to Minneapolis I got a tour of the Metrodome (where the twins play), and they went off talking about Gopher history. I guess their team plays there too occasionally or something. But honestly, I'm not very familiar with universities in general. I did 2 years of community college then joined the military, that should say enough in itself.

[Brickell]

From columnist Mike Thomost:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/column...-home-headlines

There's nothing magical about an NBA team

Before discussing the fate of the Orlando Magic, we need to put a few things about the team in perspective.

The Orlando Magic are of minimal importance. Whether or not Orlando becomes a nationally prominent city has nothing to do with the presence of the Orlando Magic.

The Orlando Magic do not bring economic development.

The Orlando Magic do not improve our quality of life.

The Orlando Magic are not a priority for people who live here.

When county pollsters gave residents a list of priorities to rank, respondents ranked renovating the Magic's arena or building a new one dead last.

A closer look at these numbers is even more revealing. Residents who put the least priority on the Magic are those with the highest education, those who have lived here the longest, those who vote, those who reside in the highest-income County Commission districts and those in the 36-to-55 age group.

In other words, these are the people who supposedly form the Magic's ticket base. That finding is reflected in the turnstile count. Some nights, the arena is almost half-empty. On average, about 5,000 seats are empty for each game.

Despite stagnant interest, a very vocal minority thinks there is something mythical about having an NBA team in town.

There is not. The Magic are a form of entertainment, nothing more, nothing less. They compete with other entertainment venues for our dollars. If they provide a good product at a good price, they get them. If someone thinks dinner and a movie for the same price is a better deal, he'll take it.

When the Magic first arrived, they put on a good show for a reasonable price and sold out accordingly. Now the show has grown stale, and tickets are overpriced.

The free market has responded with empty seats.

The fact that people no longer find value in the Magic doesn't make those people small-town. It makes them smart consumers. It makes them people with more important things to do.

Any other company would have to slash its prices or improve its product to regain market share.

But since this is professional sports, the "community" is blamed for not supporting the team. And so the team threatens to bail out and find a city where officials are happy to stuff public dollars in the owner's pocket.

The Hornets left Charlotte, N.C., for the open arms of New Orleans. Now the thrill is gone, and the team is next to last in the league in attendance. You can't hide from the free market.

Tell me how New Orleans is a better place for having the Hornets?

Seven of the 10 cities on the Forbes list of best metro areas to do business do not have major-league sports. And Raleigh-Durham, N.C., one of the three that does, has only a professional hockey team, which hardly counts.

Let's see, where did the Scripps Research Center go? To Orlando with its Magic? To Tampa Bay with its Bucs, Devil Rays and Lightning?

Nope. A company that survives by attracting the best and the brightest went to sports-deprived Palm Beach County.

So how do we deal with the Magic's demands for new digs?

We recognize the team for what it is: entertainment for a minority of residents. And we negotiate accordingly. If the Magic aren't happy with the deal and threaten to bolt for the next New Orleans, we say goodbye.

[GRS328]

^Lol... I read this today in the Sentinel today also, and I immediately thought it would end up as a post in this forum

Why don't we push the Magic out of town, huh? Should Orlando bend over backwards for the Magic? No, obviously not. But there are a lot of people who would hate to see them leave, depite what the columnist depicts. And interestingly enough, where he touts that 7 of the of 10 best places to do business in Forbes' list do not have major league sports, he fails to mention that of those 7, none of them ever had a franchise and LOST it. He does mention Charlotte, who lost the Hornets to New Orleans a few years back. And what hasCharlotte done since... they went and got the NBA expansion Bobcats.

And other cities on the list are smaller cities that are essentially part of a larger market which has a sports franchise, e.g. Provo, UT:Salt Lake Cty (NBA Jazz)

I get the point, we're sick of hearing teams demanding new stadiums, etc. But this coumnists arguments are too easily refuted, IMO.

And if the Magic ever are to leave Orlando, I will hold him personally responsible B)

[Hisma]

I read that article.

There was an opposing article a few weeks ago about how we would be crazy to let the magic get out of town as well. It's just 1 columnist's opinion, one that I completely disagree with. Orlando need the magic, I just think more negociations can be done. I know for a fact the magic would settle with a renovated arena over moving to another city.

[Urban_Legend]

Woot, woot, for "sports-deprived Palm Beach County"! Even though we're screwing up the Scripps deal....

Even though I don't think it's important, I think that a new arena will increase attendance. Look at Jacksonville, after they built the new ballpark and arena. Attendance and patronage significantly increased to their games, and they're minor league games, mind you.

[Brickell]

well i posted it because I agree with it for the most part. I'm all for keeping them in town and helping them to that end. However, there are much, much better uses of tax money in my opinion. This is from a life long magic fan. I grew up watching greg kite, scott skiles and nick anderson. Anybody else remember Terry Catledge double pumping his way to 49 points? But I'm a sports fan.

[demon]

well i posted it because I agree with it for the most part.  I'm all for keeping them in town and helping them to that end.  However, there are much, much better uses of tax money in my opinion.  This is from a life long magic fan.  I grew up watching greg kite, scott skiles and nick anderson.  Anybody else remember Terry Catledge double pumping his way to 49 points?  But I'm a sports fan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually I don't think there are better uses for the tourist tax, with the only exception being light rail. Remember the tourist tax can't be used for schools, roads or a host of other things (don't ask me why). I don't see how some people have a problem with De Vos getting the tax money but not with Harold Rosen getting it. And for the record I'm a die hard Magic fan. Not only do I remember Catledge scoring 49, I remember seeing Nick Anderson score 50 in 3 quaters with the flu in a game in NJ in April of 93.

[GRS328]

Terry Catledge... that's awesome!!! I vaguely remember that. I do remember when Skiles set the assist record though. And who can forget Tree Rollins? lol

I do agree though, there are much better ways to spend tax dollars, and perspective is important. I didn't grown up in Orlando, so I'm not a die-hard Magic fan, although I have always liked them. And I would hate to see them leave Orlando if it came to that. I'm just a sports fan in general, and think it's sad anytime a team leaves a city for another one.

Hopefully some smart negotians will take place.

[GreenHills]

well i posted it because I agree with it for the most part.  I'm all for keeping them in town and helping them to that end.  However, there are much, much better uses of tax money in my opinion.  This is from a life long magic fan.  I grew up watching greg kite, scott skiles and nick anderson.  Anybody else remember Terry Catledge double pumping his way to 49 points?  But I'm a sports fan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I love sports as well, but when you compare the costs of an arena to the costs of incentive packages, it's hard too conclude that building an arena is a better deal. Lets be generous and assume that we could make the Magic happy with $150 million (either in renovations or in a new arena). Do you think we could get more bang for our buck with that $150 million renovating the arena or by giving out, say, $15 million in incentives every year for the next 10 years? With several of the big condo projects being scheduled to open in 2006, I would really like some incentive packages being offered to attract more retail development by this fall, unless more retail projects are announced before then. The thing I'm not sure about is what you can and can't spend the tourist tax money on. I assume if you can use tourist tax dollars to build an arena, you could use tourist tax money to build retail establishments as well (at least some tourists well use them, right?).

[demon]

  The thing I'm not sure about is what you can and can't spend the tourist tax money on.  I assume if you can use tourist tax dollars to build an arena, you could use tourist tax money to build retail establishments as well (at least some tourists well use them, right?).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

State law requires it to be spent only on tourism, arts or sports facilities.

[bluewingzz]

any updates on building a new arena for the magic?

[OCF]

This may be a really off the wall question but, would it be possible to convert or reconfigure the seating arrangement of the TD Waterhouse Centre to use as a PAC? That way we could have a PAC and build a new arena and everyone's happy.

[Topher1]

This may be a really off the wall question but, would it be possible to convert or reconfigure the seating arrangement of the TD Waterhouse Centre to use as a PAC?  That way we could have a PAC and build a new arena and everyone's happy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, that would present acoustical problems beyond recognition. Performing Art Centers are stringently acoustically tuned to provide the clearest possible sound throughout the entire hall, whereas arenas are just boxes, with enough speakers to drown out the acoustical atrocities. In order to use a structure like that as a concert hall, the entire interior would need to be redone each time it is used, so it is not economically feasible. An arena is suitable for a rock concert however, since the music is amplified and blown in the listener's face, so that precise quality is unimportant.

[cwetteland]

Study: Bowl brings in cash

Citrus Bowl backers say the venue benefits the area and should get county money.

By Jason Garcia | Sentinel Staff Writer

Posted March 11, 2005

Less than a week before Orange County commissioners discuss how they might spend their lucrative stash of hotel taxes, Florida Citrus Sports executives revealed a study Thursday that says their signature event injects more than $42 million into the local economy.

The Capital One Bowl -- the New Year's Day football game staged each year at Orlando's Florida Citrus Bowl -- attracts more than 60,000 out-of-towners, according to the study, which the sports association paid a Tampa-based company to do. The research was based on interviews conducted with 500 of the 70,229 spectators who attended this year's game.

Citrus Bowl backers, including the sports association and Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer, want Orange County to use its hotel tax to help remake the aging football stadium. Without renovations, they say, the Citrus Bowl would be unable to attract more high-profile events and risks losing its existing ones.

Refurbishing the stadium could cost as much as $142 million, according to city estimates. But others, from the Orlando Magic to International Drive hoteliers, have their own ideas for the cash.

County Mayor Rich Crotty and county commissioners are set to weigh potential projects for their tourist tax Tuesday for the first time since the tax rocketed to record levels. The 5 percent charge on hotel rooms and other short-term rentals raised almost $115 million last year.

"As you discuss the possible uses for the tourist development tax, we urge you to think about the future opportunities available, as well as the historical precedent of the past successes when our stadium was competitive," Florida Citrus Sports President Dick Rivera wrote in a letter sent to county leaders Thursday. "Renovation of this facility is an excellent investment for Orange County . . ."

But such economic studies aren't without controversy, said David Scott, a University of Central Florida finance professor. It's difficult to ensure a study's credibility when the subject being studied pays for it, he said.

"Nobody publishes an impact study that's unfavorable to the agency which commissioned the study. You never see a bad one in print," Scott said, though he said he didn't want to comment specifically on the Citrus Bowl survey because he hadn't seen it. "The researcher doing the study wants to get paid."

Florida Citrus Sports Executive Director Tom Mickle would not say how much his organization paid for the study, though the Tampa researcher who did it said similar work typically costs between $10,000 and $50,000.

Another problem with such studies is that different researchers make different assumptions, Scott said, such as how much will be spent by the waiter who works for the restaurant at which the tourist ate. The studies can't compare to similar surveys about other events and organizations, he said.

"It's not a very useful number to decide if the Citrus Bowl should be renovated," said Scott, who said he is a Capital One Bowl fan.

Nevertheless, the study shows "the Citrus Bowl can tell a good story," Mickle said.

The timing is also important for Citrus Bowl backers because it comes as local leaders' attention seems increasingly focused on another big-ticket project seeking hotel taxes: a new or renovated arena for the Orlando Magic.

Mickle said he thinks the community can find a way to pay for both the arena and football-stadium upgrades -- along with a new performing-arts center. But he also said Citrus Bowl supporters need to be careful not to get lost in the arena's shadow.

"We have definitely stepped up our conversations" with county leaders, Mickle said. "We certainly don't want to get lost."

Crotty, who has repeatedly ranked a renovated arena ahead of a renovated Citrus Bowl, said it makes sense that stadium supporters are launching a public-relations offensive.

"There is a risk that there's not enough money to go around for everything that has been contemplated," Crotty said. "I think it's fully appropriate that they begin the process of making their case."

Dyer aide David Dix, who is working on plans for the Citrus Bowl, TD Waterhouse Centre and a performing-arts center, said the football stadium remains a vital piece of the city's plans for downtown.

"They're all three critically important, and they're all three interconnected," Dix said.