Racism in the South

[BrandonTO416]

I'm not blind to anything, the entire reason cities like Chicago have race issues is due to sheer size and the high populations of each ethnic community. But the interesting thing is that the northeastern seaboard still has super-super-super low crime rates. If you check the stats, cities from Boston to Philly have lower rates of crime then most major cities down here. And I don't remember a bloody race riot happening in Boston, New York, Philly, or Chicago anytime in the recent past. The only thing I remember in the past 5 years especially is the Cincinnati riots, which again I wouldn't call Cincinnati a typical northern city. But I could see that happening in Atlanta as easy as Cincinnati quite honestly.

Personally I think you are blinded from the realities of the southeast as much as I am, only in the opposite direction. I don't believe the northern or western tier to be perfect - I've never claimed that they haven't got race issues. I just said generally I think they have more exceptions then we do. That's a pretty moderate viewpoint if you ask me.

Like I said, I offered up my opinion and my opinion only. I know you guys are not going to agree, but I just think its inconvenient to forget the past and present. Again - you said there weren't riots in the south in the past 25 years. What about the church burnings? What about the fact that southern cities still have massive poverty and crime issues?

It all comes down to size. Established cities have had problems, areas with small cities and larger towns didn't have the same kind of problems.

Getting away from the silly arguments of north vs south, I think this nation as a whole has to work at things to get better.

Some of the things I outlined are a beginning. These urban inner city black issues are not representative of the entire african-american community. But there are plenty of poor neighborhoods with lots of crime. Most of the crime I see is black-on-black crime. I would love to see inner communities get redeveloped, and when the police crack down on crime stop just throwing people in jail. Like I said, if you find a young person of ANY race that is destroying property, causing mischief, I think we should get those people involved in programs where their sentences aren't sitting in a jail cell. Its getting out into the community, using their time as construction workers on projects in the city, giving them hope, and being tough all at the same time.

What other ways are there to solve this urban issue in America where the city seems unattractive and people keep getting pushed out?? Are we going to sit here and argue these silly north vs south arguments, or just admit its a problem everywhere and start talking about what it takes to keep this from happening?

My hopes is that urban areas nationwide become more livable, more open, cleaner, more mixed-use.

And monsoon, there are places in the southeast I like. Including places like Memphis, New Orleans (NO doesn't seem livable, but its still a city I love), Florida - at least Orlando and I assume Miami even though I've never been. Smaller cities like Savannah and Charleston seem very intriguing. In Texas I think Austin sounds interesting, Dallas and Houston are so big they have some things I would like - but overall I really don't think I could live there. But outside these areas I don't see much that I like.

If I were living in any number of places in the northern tier of the nation I'd be complaining just as much. Buffalo? I wouldn't want to live there. Michigan? I honestly don't find much attractive there, however Detroit I like better then Nashville for what its worth. LOL Indiana? Yuk!

I take my comments overboard and talk about things as a whole many times when I am meaning to talk about individual problems. But you know, i only hope you guys aren't really that blind when talking about race issues to think the north and west is backwards and more racist then the utopia we know as the southeast. LOL

[monsoon]

I believe this thread is about racism, not crime in the inner city. It's not clear to me these are directly related except the flight of whites and middle class blacks away from the urban cores that lead to economic conditions leading to the crime.

The original question was about racism and does it still exist in the South. Sure it does, but no more so than anywhere else, and in many places it is much less because, as you point out, many Southern cities are so small it isn't possible for the races to separate. (As they have in Chicago) The end result is the they have had to learn to live with each other. Something that isn't possible once defacto segregation occurs. Blacks and Whites get along better in the South than any other part of the country.

[BrandonTO416]

monsoon, here is where you are wrong.

Charlotte may be better off then many cities on integration, but its still divided. West Charlotte looked pretty bleak to me. So does north of downtown. Eastward it turns into a pretty blue collar area. Its quite different from South End, Uptown, Dilworth, and the wealthy suburbs.

Atlanta's south side is pretty bad.

North Nashville, East and southeast Nashville are pretty poor and desolate. Its high crime, many people are quite racist in their views of those areas, and to live in Nashville you have to be in downtown, West End, or the suburban areas because of this.

Memphis has plenty of racial divide issues.

New Orleans, well, yea it has issues.

The list goes on and on. You are wanting to ignore these facts.

What you guys are doing is rediculous. You are wanting to call northerners more racist then southerners and stay away from the real arguments that need to be made - those that focus on poverty reduction and community building.

if you noticed, I didn't speak on behalf of southerners and say they are more racist. I said its naive to pat yourself on the back as if you are better then everyone else when its not true.

Don't throw stones from a glass house. You live in Huntersville. You could live in a cozy north side elite suburb in Chicago and ignore the problems there as well.

Its up to you what you choose to ignore in this life.

[monsoon]

Don't throw stones from a glass house. You live in Huntersville. You could live in a cozy north side elite suburb in Chicago and ignore the problems there as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Last time I looked there were plenty of Blacks, Asians, & Hispanics living in the Huntersville area. I move here because of access to the Lake and you know this. And your depictions of West Charlotte are way off the mark as it is home to JC Smith University and hundreds of Black owned businesses, clubs and is a thriving economic success. Many Whites frequent the businesses there as well. NoDa is in North Charlotte and is a very integrated neighborhood. I believe you had lunch there.

[BrandonTO416]

As if there aren't asians, hispanics, indians, and arabs living in Philly, Boston, etc??

I'm not saying the southeast does not have its areas where there are racial mixes and diversity.

On the contrary, you guys are collectively making the statement that the south is less racist, more racially integrated, and that this argument isn't about poverty and communities and crime, but rather you guys are openly looking into the hearts of the entire country outside the southeast and saying that people are genuinely more racist and hate filled.

I question why I even have to back my arguments up considering the circumstances. My points are simple: the south has its problems, the entire nation does really, and that the real problems lie outside of labeling an entire region as this or that. I never once called the entire south a racist pit of hate. Not once. What I have done is point out facts that some of you seem willing to forget.

But as I've learned ever increasingly, you can't change people's perceptions that easily.

Oh well!

[larry]

First, racism isn't something dominated by whites and is probably seen less in the south than northern cities with heavy black populations. The south has always been a scapegoat for anything that is wrong with America, but from what I have seen, we southerners seem to at least be on par with everyone else if not ahead. I think that blacks and whites actually like each other more in the south and get along better. I think that southerners as a whole like anyone that is nice regardless of color.

[larry]

Don't forget Europe. They are just a racist if not more so. Maybe not towards blacks, but then- how many black have you seen in Europe? The antisemitism is bad over there. France let a neo nazi make it to the run offs in their last presidential election. Europe's attitude towards Arabs and Turks its nothing to brag about either. America isn't the only racist country.

I think that humans in general will always have biases towards/against other races.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hell, it has only been 60 years since the Germans were gassing Jews, Gypsies, and other subcutures or Germany. There hasn't been a slave in the U.S. in over 140 years. Seems that everyone has forgiven Germany for their discusting acts of terrorism and Germans are mostly considered intelligent, happy-go-lucky, nice people, yet people still throw slavery in the faces of southerners. Really, it is pretty ignorant since not a single person living was either a slave or a slave owner. On the other hand, there are still people alive today that were Holicost survivors and/or Nazis. You figure it out?

[larry]

Regardless of racism anywhere else, I do think it's still a problem in the South. It may not be as out in the open anymore, but there's a lot of institutional racism that's keeping things from being equal.  Look at our jails, look at the inequality in our school systems, look at our inner city neighborhoods.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am an educator. Please explain to me the inequality in our school systems. Also, explain to me the inequality in our jails. Schools offer the same opportunities to everyone. Teachers tend to bend over backwards to help blacks. As a matter of fact, they do it to the point to show partialityto them. The cry of equality is passe. As far as jails having mostly black criminals, what do you suggest? Should whites and Asians commit more crime so that it will be more qual? I know you will cry that blacks don't get the same legal representation. Well the fact is that most criminals don't have much money, therefore, all criminals don't get O.J. Simpson representation. Equality isn't the problem. Conformity is.

[Brickell]

I am an educator.  Please explain to me the inequality in our school systems.  Also, explain to me the inequality in our jails.  Schools offer the same opportunities to everyone.  Teachers tend to bend over backwards to help blacks.  As a matter of fact, they do it to the point to show partialityto them.  The cry of equality is passe.  As far as jails having mostly black criminals, what do you suggest?  Should whites and Asians commit more crime so that it will be more qual?  I know you will cry that blacks don't get the same legal representation.  Well the fact is that most criminals don't have much money, therefore, all criminals don't get O.J. Simpson representation.  Equality isn't the problem.  Conformity is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know where you're a educator, but where I am from, you have suburban schools and inner city schools. I'm sure you know what type of students attend each. This is not enforced segregation but is de facto segregation. That in and of itself is a bad thing in my opinion. What is though, is the inequality in funding between the two. Our inner city schools don't offer the same programs, the facilities are falling apart, the extracuricular activities are curtailed. How is this equal?

As far as the jails, I would suggest that our criminal system treats black more harshly then whites, especially in capital cases.

[Claws]

Okay, we've been provided with the history of racism in the South, but what's the final word? In today's world is racism any more of a problem in the South than in any other region of the country?

[SoFla]

I'm not blind to anything, the entire reason cities like Chicago have race issues is due to sheer size and the high populations of each ethnic community. But the interesting thing is that the northeastern seaboard still has super-super-super low crime rates. If you check the stats, cities from Boston to Philly have lower rates of crime then most major cities down here. And I don't remember a bloody race riot happening in Boston, New York, Philly, or Chicago anytime in the recent past. The only thing I remember in the past 5 years especially is the Cincinnati riots, which again I wouldn't call Cincinnati a typical northern city. But I could see that happening in Atlanta as easy as Cincinnati quite honestly.

Personally I think you are blinded from the realities of the southeast as much as I am, only in the opposite direction. I don't believe the northern or western tier to be perfect - I've never claimed that they haven't got race issues. I just said generally I think they have more exceptions then we do. That's a pretty moderate viewpoint if you ask me.

Like I said, I offered up my opinion and my opinion only. I know you guys are not going to agree, but I just think its inconvenient to forget the past and present. Again - you said there weren't riots in the south in the past 25 years. What about the church burnings? What about the fact that southern cities still have massive poverty and crime issues?

It all comes down to size. Established cities have had problems, areas with small cities and larger towns didn't have the same kind of problems.

Getting away from the silly arguments of north vs south, I think this nation as a whole has to work at things to get better.

Some of the things I outlined are a beginning. These urban inner city black issues are not representative of the entire african-american community. But there are plenty of poor neighborhoods with lots of crime. Most of the crime I see is black-on-black crime. I would love to see inner communities get redeveloped, and when the police crack down on crime stop just throwing people in jail. Like I said, if you find a young person of ANY race that is destroying property, causing mischief, I think we should get those people involved in programs where their sentences aren't sitting in a jail cell. Its getting out into the community, using their time as construction workers on projects in the city, giving them hope, and being tough all at the same time.

What other ways are there to solve this urban issue in America where the city seems unattractive and people keep getting pushed out?? Are we going to sit here and argue these silly north vs south arguments, or just admit its a problem everywhere and start talking about what it takes to keep this from happening?

My hopes is that urban areas nationwide become more livable, more open, cleaner, more mixed-use.

And monsoon, there are places in the southeast I like. Including places like Memphis, New Orleans (NO doesn't seem livable, but its still a city I love), Florida - at least Orlando and I assume Miami even though I've never been. Smaller cities like Savannah and Charleston seem very intriguing. In Texas I think Austin sounds interesting, Dallas and Houston are so big they have some things I would like - but overall I really don't think I could live there. But outside these areas I don't see much that I like.

If I were living in any number of places in the northern tier of the nation I'd be complaining just as much. Buffalo? I wouldn't want to live there. Michigan? I honestly don't find much attractive there, however Detroit I like better then Nashville for what its worth. LOL Indiana? Yuk!

I take my comments overboard and talk about things as a whole many times when I am meaning to talk about individual problems. But you know, i only hope you guys aren't really that blind when talking about race issues to think the north and west is backwards and more racist then the utopia we know as the southeast. LOL

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When I lived in NY we had the Crown Heights riots in Brooklyn, Boston and Chicago have both had race riots, (just responding to above incorrect remarks). I think that the south is more intergrated, even if people don't like each other they seem to be able to live together, and not be so segregated or hypocritical. I think the West Coast seems to be the best in this respect, although it is somewhat segregated outside of California.

[jandar]

Ive been in enough small towns all over the south to say that there is still some racism in some spots.

Ive also seen a lot more black on white racism than people would imagine, alot of smaller towns, mainly black, you do here some choice comments if you are white and happen to be doing some physical labor.

[satalac]

Ive been in enough small towns all over the south to say that there is still some racism in some spots.

Ive also seen a lot more black on white racism than people would imagine, alot of smaller towns, mainly black, you do here some choice comments if you are white and happen to be doing some physical labor.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i've been in enough small towns all over the north to say the same thing. the whole country has always been racist. even during the civil war. just because the north didn't have slaves doesn't mean they weren't racist. when slavery was abolished, the north and south were (and still is) equal in it's racism. i really wish racism wasn't even an issue anymore though.

[afh]

Racism is everywhere. People aren't as obvert with their racism as they were 40 years ago. We all know this. I was born and raised in Florida and have been living in the Phoenix metro area for the past 6 months. You wanna see a place that is segregrated? Come here! Where I'm from there are racially mixed neighborhoods and not so racially mixed neighborhoods. I can literally count the number of Black people that I've see in a month, excluding church, here in Phoenix/Chandler. Last month I saw about 6 black people. This includes driving along on the city streets and freeways and at the malls and restaurants.

We're in 2005, but living here you wouldn't know it. About 3 months after I moved here there were news reports about the Klan placing flyers on homes that said "Save our White women from Black men". My secretary said that they placed one of the notices on her door. Then in January there was a news report about the Aryan Nation putting up flyers out here in the suburbs where I live. That is scary as hell b/c even though I lived in the South I never saw any of that sh*t. This is all to say that hate goes beyond the South as you all know. Even out west there are problems.

[sleepy]

Regardless of racism anywhere else, I do think it's still a problem in the South. It may not be as out in the open anymore, but there's a lot of institutional racism that's keeping things from being equal.  Look at our jails, look at the inequality in our school systems, look at our inner city neighborhoods.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Institutionally:

The liberal state of Iowa has the highest incarceration rates in the nation for black males, the highest high school drop out rate for black males, one of the highest poverty rates for blacks, etc.

Rates for liberal Minnesota are similar.

Not to say the South doesn't have vast problems also.

[monsoon]

Yesterday was the 50th anniversary of Bloody Sunday in Alabama. No doubt the events of that episode would be incomprehensible to most Southerners today.

[sleepy]

Yesterday was the 50th anniversary of Bloody Sunday in Alabama.  No doubt the events of that episode would be incomprehensible to most Southerners today.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm old enough to remember legal segregation--"white" and "colored" water fountains at Penney's in an affluent Memphis shopping center. I--very vaguely--remember taking the train from Memphis to Chicago in the 50's and after crossing the Ohio River at Paducah KY, how the blacks were able to come up from the segregated cars in the rear and sit up front in the "white" cars. I remember--again vaguely--when the Memphis library system had a day set aside for blacks who could only go there on that day. Same with the zoo.

[nashvol85]

I would say that it's getting better as the years pass. Anything else that I would add seems to have already been posted in this thread. For a short time, you might see more Hispanic related racism/discrimination in the near future. Just speculation.

[Southron]

Racism will always be with us to some degree, but I think we've come a long way in the South since the 1960s. As the years pass and the percentage of post-civil rights era population increases, I think we'll see continued improvement in race relations.

I've noticed a huge difference between the attitudes of my generation (attended integrated schools) and those of my parents and grandparents (attended segregated schools). Growing up in a small town in rural Alabama, I can remember the reaction to Hank Aaron besting Babe Ruth's home run record in the mid-1970s. To the little league ball players of the time, black or white, Hank Aaron was an inspiring hero. We were proud to see a native of Mobile, AL win such a title. To many of the adults, however, this was a horrible thing that inspired all kinds of racist rants about a black man beating the great Babe Ruth. I doubt that you'd hear anyone complain today.

Things have gotten much better politically as well. Today in Alabama, a state where African-Americans comprise 24% of the voting age population, 17.2% of the elected officials in the state are black (source: Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies). Compare this to some states in the enlightened North: New York (14.8% black/1.3% elected officials black), Michigan (13.1%/1.8%), and Illinois (13.8%/1.5%).

Birmingham and Selma, hotbeds of civil rights reaction in the 1960s, have black mayors today. Montgomery, home of Rosa Parks and the bus boycott in the 1950s, is now home to the Southern Poverty Law Center -- the premier organization in the country for fighting white supremacists and hate groups.

I didn't mean to bore ya'll with all those references to Alabama, but I thought it would be instructive to highlight the nation's whipping boy on the issue of race.

Improved conditions in the South have led to a reversal of the Great Migration of the early-to-mid 1900s. African-Americans wouldn't be moving back to the South by the hundreds of thousands if racism remained the problem that it once was.

We still have problems, poverty and school re-segregation in particular, but we've come a hell of a long way in the last 40 years, much farther IMHO than our neighbors to the North.

[Cpfaunmiller]

It seems funny to me. I've been researching the topic of racism. Racism occurs everywhere, this is true. I am really impressed by the Civil War. Although (dependant on one's views) civil rights did not spawn the war, seperation from the Union was the main goal; I am having a very hard time not sticking my nose up at the South in a repugnant fashion. I am disguisted by some of the documentry's and other reliable sources explaining some of the Souths' views before, during, shortly after the Civil War...and still today.

Yes, racism is everywhere, but it seems SO blatant in the South. Now, I could be very wrong. But my observations have been to deem the south is a mess of intolerable, cruel, disheartening states. -weren't the one's who firsted dawned the o' so fashionable bed sheets (took root) in a southern state? Please, spare me the good old south stuff...and someone please reply with bit of honesty!

Cpfaunmiller

[Cpfaunmiller]

Racism is everywhere.  People aren't as obvert with their racism as they were 40 years ago.  We all know this.  I was born and raised in Florida and have been living in the Phoenix metro area for the past 6 months.  You wanna see a place that is segregrated?  Come here!  Where I'm from there are racially mixed neighborhoods and not so racially mixed neighborhoods.  I can literally count the number of Black people that I've see in a month, excluding church, here in Phoenix/Chandler.  Last month I saw about 6 black people.  This includes driving along on the city streets and freeways and at the malls and restaurants. 

We're in 2005, but living here you wouldn't know it.  About 3 months after I moved here there were news reports about the Klan placing flyers on homes that said "Save our White women from Black men".  My secretary said that they placed one of the notices on her door.  Then in January there was a news report about the Aryan Nation putting up flyers out here in the suburbs where I live.  That is scary as hell b/c even though I lived in the South I never saw any of that sh*t.  This is all to say that hate goes beyond the South as you all know.  Even out west there are problems.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Reply from Cpfaunmiller

YOU have GOT to be kidding me!! I cannot believe that people pass out flyers about such vulgar Cr**. I was borned and raised in Washington state. I have never seen or heard any type of blatant racism-more than anything prejudice here and there- nothing like the KKK or any other uneducated hate groups. I am just without words!

[Florida]

Growing up in the south I must say, there are many ways to show you are from the south than to sport around wrapped in a confederate flag. Heritage should not be so bound to icons that conjure up thoughts of the past. Truly, it seems because of the rural character of much of the south, many people find themselves in a lost time zone where people still shop at different stores, attend different churches, go to seperate schools, and don't make eye contact in public.

Having just visited Hattiesburg, MS, I noticed the people there are comfortable with their state of separation. Its rather depressing as a traveler going from Tallahassee to Mississippi less than 300 miles away to see how different people treat one another.

[waccamatt]

It seems funny to me. I've been researching the topic of racism. Racism occurs everywhere, this is true. I am really impressed by the Civil War. Although (dependant on one's views) civil rights did not spawn the war, seperation from the Union was the main goal; I am having a very hard time not sticking my nose up at the South in a repugnant fashion. I am disguisted by some of the documentry's and other reliable sources explaining some of the Souths' views before, during, shortly after the Civil War...and still today.

Yes, racism is everywhere, but it seems SO blatant in the South. Now, I could be very wrong. But my observations have been to deem the south is a mess of intolerable, cruel, disheartening states. -weren't the one's who firsted dawned the o' so fashionable bed sheets (took root) in a southern state? Please, spare me the good old south stuff...and someone please reply with bit of honesty!

Cpfaunmiller

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't find the racism in the South (in 2005) to be any more blatant than in the rest of the country. Racism, sexism and homophobia are problems everywhere, not just in the South. Most people have prejudices of some sort. The solution, IMO, is for people of different backgrounds to interact with each other more.

[Florida]

Take another look at the South. Racisim has a bold face in many places.

[skirby]

It seems funny to me. I've been researching the topic of racism. Racism occurs everywhere, this is true. I am really impressed by the Civil War. Although (dependant on one's views) civil rights did not spawn the war, seperation from the Union was the main goal; I am having a very hard time not sticking my nose up at the South in a repugnant fashion. I am disguisted by some of the documentry's and other reliable sources explaining some of the Souths' views before, during, shortly after the Civil War...and still today.

Yes, racism is everywhere, but it seems SO blatant in the South. Now, I could be very wrong. But my observations have been to deem the south is a mess of intolerable, cruel, disheartening states. -weren't the one's who firsted dawned the o' so fashionable bed sheets (took root) in a southern state? Please, spare me the good old south stuff...and someone please reply with bit of honesty!

Cpfaunmiller

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe you should do a little more research. During the 1920's a majority of the KKK lived in the Midwest. They also had a great influence in Oregon and the Democratic Party. As someone who has lived not only the South but the North I can say that racism exist in one form or other in both.