James Island Reincorporation

[krazeeboi]

^Well, the only contender against the law will be Joe Riley; it appears as though no one else sees anything bad about it. Riley has explicitly stated that if James Island attempts to reincorporate, he will challenge the constitutionality of the law. I'm not sure if he would attempt to do this in any other case.

[Charleston native]

^Well, the only contender against the law will be Joe Riley; it appears as though no one else sees anything bad about it. Riley has explicitly stated that if James Island attempts to reincorporate, he will challenge the constitutionality of the law. I'm not sure if he would attempt to do this in any other case.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think if other areas around the state which are very close to the main cities such as St. Andrews or NE in Columbia or other areas near Greenville started attempting what people on James Island are doing, the mayors of all major 3 cities would say something!

[krazeeboi]

It's possible, but I'm not really sure if this particular law would specifically encourage NE Richland to incorporate. As I understand it, at one time this area did consider incorporation. The most significant change in the law was the population requirement; that is the part that could possibly encourage more incorporations statewide. The part about "leapfrogging" across incorporated territory, waterways, etc. was specifically plugged in for James Island. I don't think other areas like NE Richland or St. Andrews would really have to worry about this, as those areas are pretty much one contiguous area.

Edited August 10, 2005 by krazeeboi

[Spartan]

The cities need to have a real incentive and drive to incorporate. Right now, Greenville, Spartanburg, and Columbia aren't insanely annexing exerything in sight like Charleston, which is why there is so much turmoil there. If Greenville did this in the same manner you can bet that Taylors will incorporate, and probably some other areas aound there too.

[GMoxley]

Why is it then that Charleston has such a drive to annex, while Greenville, Spartanburg, and Columbia do not?

[Spartan]

I have no idea. Supposedly Spartanburg is stepping up its annexation process. I have been hearing about alot of them lately. Not large ones, but progress is progress I guess.

[krazeeboi]

Why is it then that Charleston has such a drive to annex, while Greenville, Spartanburg, and Columbia do not?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You mean aside from the James Island fiasco? My guess would be so that the suburb doesn't become larger than the primary city (which, in some ways, seems to be its intent).

[UrbanSoutherner]

Why is it then that Charleston has such a drive to annex, while Greenville, Spartanburg, and Columbia do not?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it is due to one primary reason - Mayor Joseph P. Riley. Riley provides leadership for the City of Charleston that Columbia and Greenville both sorely lack. I think Charleston has a strong mayor form of government where the mayor really is the city's exective, whereas Columbia has a weak mayor form of government where a city manager runs things more so than the mayor. At any rate, Riley has been a great leader for Charleston, and I think he is largely why the city has been so aggressive annexing.

[vicupstate]

Why is it then that Charleston has such a drive to annex, while Greenville, Spartanburg, and Columbia do not?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it is due to one primary reason - Mayor Joseph P. Riley. Riley provides leadership for the City of Charleston that Columbia and Greenville both sorely lack. I think Charleston has a strong mayor form of government where the mayor really is the city's exective, whereas Columbia has a weak mayor form of government where a city manager runs things more so than the mayor. At any rate, Riley has been a great leader for Charleston, and I think he is largely why the city has been so aggressive annexing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is indeed the answer. Riley has the stomach for it and the others don't. That's why for the next 50 years after he leaves office, Charleston will be virtually guaranteed to grow both in tax base and population. That's what a leader (as opposed to a politician) does. He looks out for the future as well as the present (ie next election).

I think it has more to do with Riley's skills and drive than the strong mayor form of government though, IMO.

[vicupstate]

The cities need to have a real incentive and drive to incorporate. Right now, Greenville, Spartanburg, and Columbia aren't insanely annexing exerything in sight like Charleston, which is why there is so much turmoil there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Charleston isn't "insanely annexing" IMO, it is merely annexing territory that would have been annexed years ago, if the state's annexation laws were not so antiquated. It's pretty obvious that Chas. intends to annex the remainder of West Ashley, James and John's Islands and maybe Wadmalaw too. Except for filling in gaps in the Berkely County portion, that should finish it. I doubt the Chas. limits will go into Dorchester or beyond W. Ashley towards Hollywood, Meggett, Ravenel than it currently does.

[Charleston native]

Very good points, here. The only thing I'd add is Charleston might annex parts of Dorchester County which are West Ashley if the North city continues its push to annex Watson Hill. I think Riley is doing his best to ensure that the city isn't boxed in completely by its sister city to the north. Wadmalaw Island will not be annexed for many years since the urban-growth boundary is set on Johns Island...however, the city set the boundary itself, so they could push it further to Wadmalaw if necessary.

Another reason why Charleston is so aggressive with annexation is because of the North city. Before Riley became mayor, the city dropped the ball when the North area was unincorporated, and he now knows that Charleston blew a huge opportunity to become the biggest city in the state. Many lessons were learned after allowing the North area to incorporate, and I believe Riley takes these lessons into account when dealing with other areas like James Island and Johns Island.

Edited August 11, 2005 by Charleston native

[krazeeboi]

Another reason why Charleston is so aggressive with annexation is because of the North city. Before Riley became mayor, the city dropped the ball when the North area was unincorporated, and he now knows that Charleston blew a huge opportunity to become the biggest city in the state. Many lessons were learned after allowing the North area to incorporate, and I believe Riley takes these lessons into account when dealing with other areas like James Island and Johns Island.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the expanded, detalied version of what I said earlier.

[Spartan]

Charleston isn't "insanely annexing" IMO, it is merely annexing territory that would have been annexed years ago, if the state's annexation laws were not so antiquated.  It's pretty obvious that Chas. intends to annex the remainder of West Ashley, James and John's Islands and maybe Wadmalaw too.  Except for filling in gaps in the Berkely County portion, that should finish it.  I doubt the Chas. limits will go into Dorchester or beyond W. Ashley towards Hollywood, Meggett, Ravenel than it currently does.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Insane may have been a poor choise of words. I only meant that Charleston's rate of annexation is far greater than that of Greenville, Spartanburg, or Columbia.

There is an obvious land grab going on in Charleston. SOoner or later it will all be claimed

[krazeeboi]

Then at that point, the focus will shift to density, which will be a good thing, IMO.

[UrbanSoutherner]

That is indeed the answer.  Riley has the stomach for it and the others don't.  That's why for the next 50 years after he leaves office, Charleston will be virtually guaranteed to grow both in tax base and population.  That's what a leader (as opposed to a politician) does.  He looks out for the future as well as the present (ie next election). 

I think it has more to do with Riley's skills and drive than the strong mayor form of government though, IMO.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And even after spending significant amounts of tax payer dollars on urban infrastructure and projects and picking fights over annexation, Mayor Riley winds up being very popular and easily re-elected. I think most Charlestonians realize that their city has been made much stronger and healthier thanks in no small part to Riley's leadership. The city has a urban redevelopment agenda most cities could only dream of and as you pointed out, a current city boundary that guarantees continued growth in tax base and population for the foreseeable future.

[Infinite1]

Very good points, here. The only thing I'd add is Charleston might annex parts of Dorchester County which are West Ashley if the North city continues its push to annex Watson Hill. I think Riley is doing his best to ensure that the city isn't boxed in completely by its sister city to the north. Wadmalaw Island will not be annexed for many years since the urban-growth boundary is set on Johns Island...however, the city set the boundary itself, so they could push it further to Wadmalaw if necessary.

Another reason why Charleston is so aggressive with annexation is because of the North city. Before Riley became mayor, the city dropped the ball when the North area was unincorporated, and he now knows that Charleston blew a huge opportunity to become the biggest city in the state. Many lessons were learned after allowing the North area to incorporate, and I believe Riley takes these lessons into account when dealing with other areas like James Island and Johns Island.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with your conclusion, but I should note that the Urban growth boundary is a county creation and is set and monitored by the county. The City of Charleston is in no way obligated to adhere to those limitations....But I would have a hard time seeing Charleston annex to Wadmalaw Island.

[UrbanSoutherner]

Another reason why Charleston is so aggressive with annexation is because of the North city. Before Riley became mayor, the city dropped the ball when the North area was unincorporated, and he now knows that Charleston blew a huge opportunity to become the biggest city in the state. Many lessons were learned after allowing the North area to incorporate, and I believe Riley takes these lessons into account when dealing with other areas like James Island and Johns Island.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do wonder if the city really wanted to annex North Charleston in the late 1960s/very early 1970s when it may have had a chance prior to the area's separate incorporation. I would guess that North Charleston was a "navy town" at the time with a lot of what some might have called "seediness" so to speak. I mean all the naval property would have been tax-exempt and would have added nothing to the tax base. There were not a lot of upper income residential areas I do not think at the time in the area. I do wonder what kind of tax base it would have provided for the City of Charleston prior to later developments.

It does seem like Charleston has annexed a lot of pretty high end property (now or eventually when developed). Cities do pay attention to more than just population, like whether an area will bring in enough revenue to pay for the services the city will have to provide to the area. And North Charleston seems to be becoming the lower income area of metro Charleston with serious crime problems, especially as peninsular Charleston continues to gentrify. In many ways, Mayor Riley's annexation efforts have turned Charleston into a increasingly affluent, white, and Republican city, while North Charleston has trended increasingly poorer, African-American, and Democratic. It is not what one would expect for the usual city vs. suburb equation, and it is ironic given that Riley is a Democrat. The changes can be seen in recent years in city council redistricting that reduced the number of African-American majority districts (due to the demographic changes) and in Riley's efforts to make city elections nonpartisan, which one must assume was triggered at least in part because Riley understood that many of the newly annexed residents in far flung "suburban" type areas lean Republican. Of course, another big change is that the majority of the city's residents no longer live on the peninsula.

Furthermore, it really seems like Charleston will be in a much better tax base position than North Charleston going forward, especially if North Charleston continues to get boxed in by other cities. I think that this is a pattern we are seeing across urban America. The central cities are being gentrified, displacing poorer residents to older suburbs (e.g., North Charleston). Over the long run, that should make the inner ring suburbs rather than the central city home to many of the "urban problems" like poverty, blight, weak tax base, and crime that previously plagued the central cities. Indeed, it may be the older suburbs like North Charleston that end up with the double whammy of weakened tax base and high demand for services. So back to my original point, did Charleston ever really want to annex the area? Just a thought...

Edited August 12, 2005 by UrbanSoutherner

[Charleston native]

To answer your question, yes, the city was interested in extending its services to the North area after their first major annexation west of the Ashley. Primarily, it was the mayor, some North area citizens, and a few members of the city council that proposed the annexation. One of the reasons for this was that the city owned land on the Navy base and the land used to build Charleston Municipal Airport. I believe the city police also had jurisdiction of the airport. To some, it made sense to extend the city's borders northward since the area was merely a natural extension from the peninsula.

However, other city council members had a very aristocratic and snobbish outlook in annexing the area. You summed it up fairly accurately in that the area wasn't as "beautiful", but it was an economically thriving area...completely opposite from what is seen in the area at the present time. To put it bluntly, many council members lacked the imagination, foresight, and intellect to pursue annexations. I've said this in other posts, but one council member was actually quoted as saying, "They [residents of the North area] don't even know me up there."

IMO, if the city had annexed the area, Charleston would be somewhat different than it is today. It would definitely be the largest city in the state. It would also have the ranking of having the most money in retail sales...the additional tax base might have quickened the process of completing DT building projects. That is a stretch, maybe, but it would have been possible!

[Charleston native]

I was thinking of posting this article link in the developments thread, but since it involves James Island, I put it here. The city moved to annex more properties on James Island Monday, at a special city council meeting. These annexations have been in response to the impending attempt by some James Island residents to incorporate areas not in the city into their own town. In the approximately 10 months since James Island's last incorporation attempt, Charleston has annexed 275 properties there and the city is now moving to annex 20 more.

I wish the annexations were larger in quantity, but this is a great news for the city. I found this fact about the city limits amazing:

The city limits now extend from the boundary of Wadmalaw Island to the Francis Marion National Forest.

Charleston annexing more land

[vicupstate]

I was in Chas. last Friday and popped in the library. I read in the James Island Journal that Folly Beach did complete the controversial annexations on James Island that were recently submitted to the town. As part of that, some of the annexed properties requested that they be given a zoning classification that would not place a height limit on themselves. This was because Chas. County had no limit, and they didn't want to possibly de-value their property with a height limit. Folly Beach has a town-wide height limit and many Beach residents expressed strong discomfort with Folly Beach allowing a no-height-limit zoning classification.

These residents feel that this is letting the camel's nose under the tent and they also feel the town council is too developer-friendly. It will be interesting to see if this costs any Folly Beach town councilmen their seats, or if a high-rise is proposed for Folly Beach proper in the next few years.

Personally, I would like to see Folly maintain it's low-rise residential character, as I'm sure nearly all the residents do as well.

[Charleston native]

...Personally, I would like to see Folly maintain it's low-rise residential character, as I'm sure nearly all the residents do as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that additional development would be good for Folly Beach, but only in small doses. However, I agree; Folly should keep its profile as a low-rise beach town and not try to emulate Myrtle Beach. Any development which is similar in height to the Holiday Inn there could be permissible, IMHO.

[vicupstate]

James Island's Mayor-in-Exile may not be in exile too much longer. James Island filed it's incorporation papers yesterday. This will be the first incorporation that I know of, under the newly passed legislation. Judging from Chas. Mayor Riley's comments, the new town may have to pay higher taxes in order to provide all the services required under the new law. Of course, the pro-incorporation folks might think differently.

James Island submits incorporation petions

[Charleston native]

James Island's Mayor-in-Exile may not be in exile too much longer. James Island filed it's incorporation papers yesterday. This will be the first incorporation that I know of, under the newly passed legislation. Judging from Chas. Mayor Riley's comments, the new town may have to pay higher taxes in order to provide all the services required under the new law. Of course, the pro-incorporation folks might think differently.

Great. Well, here we go again...

[vicupstate]

James Island will have additional policing expenses under incorporation

As he seemed to be hinting at before, Mayor Riley has made moves to assure that James Island will be required to spend large sums in order to fulfil the requirements to be incorporated. This same requirement will likely dampen other efforts to incorporate statewide. No doubt eventually, the Legislature will amend the new law as well.

I think the question now is, do James Islanders dislike Riley enough to pay higher taxes to incorporate, or will they vote no to avoid the additional taxes?

[Charleston native]

My guess is that James Islanders will try to avoid, at all costs, additional taxes. I think this might put the nail in the coffin to these incorporation attempts, because many people on the island that live outside the city limits have always vehemently opposed any type of taxation. This is the reason why some residents did not want to be in the city of Charleston in the first place.

But now, thankfully the rules enforce a real town to be made with services that will increase taxes, and they don't allow for "paper towns" to be formed. It might be a tight vote with this new requirement, but even if the town gets voted for again, the city of Charleston should fight it again.