Public Transit in Providence

[Vallon]

I cant imagine RI without 95, but I would certainly love it if it didnt split the city. I think that decking it over is far and away the best idea (At least from Atwells to Broad st)

There were certainly a lot of mistakes made in building the interstate system, but there was also a huge amount of good that came out of it. With most of the mistakes it is a hindsight is 20/20 kind of issue. It would have been hard for them to know how drasticly 95 would split the city before it was built.

Liam

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Great post Liam... I wish I would have read it before trying to explain what you already did perfectly. I just basically repeated your sentiments and stretched it out.

I agree with you on the decking thing. If it was just from Atwells to Broad Street... that would be a pretty minor tunnel... but would allow for a significant amount of growth. It's a good plan... and one I hope to see constructed sooner rather than later.

[pdxstreetcar]

I have taken the 20-Airport RIPTA bus many times and find it to be a great way to get from the airport to downtown. It only takes about 20 minutes since it runs non stop from downtown on I95 to the airport, but I agree tourists arent about to ride a city bus. The 12-Elmwood runs more frequently to the airport but is much slower since it runs down Elmwood. I have thought Elmwood might be a good street for a light rail line since it is a major street in a dense corridor.

Also I think a downtown circulator streetcar would make a lot of sense to connect the major parts of downtown together. Maybe a downtown fareless square would be good too. The streetcar could also run into the Jewelry District to spur redevelopment.

Regarding the abandoned rail tunnel under College Hill, I would think this would be an essential piece of a future transit system. Did Brown propose a rubber tire people mover for in the tunnel or were they talking about buses? Hopefully the approaches to the tunnel are publicly owned so that when the day comes to reopen the tunnel buses/trains can continue into downtown.

Perhaps a LRT line could be built along the side of the Northeast corridor from Pawtucket thru Prov and out to Cranston & Roger Williams Park.

With the current East Side Bus Tunnel, I think the street between the tunnel's west portal and kennedy plaza (Washington St.) should have bus lanes along the south side of the road so that buses and trolleys can run two ways on washington having a more direct route (and dont have to go one block on Main then turn left on Steeple). Also did I hear that the east side tunnel was going to get some renovations???

[Cotuit]

I have taken the 20-Airport RIPTA bus many times and find it to be a great way to get from the airport to downtown.  It only takes about 20 minutes since it runs non stop from downtown on I95 to the airport, but I agree tourists arent about to ride a city bus. The 12-Elmwood runs more frequently to the airport but is much slower since it runs down Elmwood. I have thought Elmwood might be a good street for a light rail line since it is a major street in a dense corridor. 

Also I think a downtown circulator streetcar would make a lot of sense to connect the major parts of downtown together.  Maybe a downtown fareless square would be good too.  The streetcar could also run into the Jewelry District to spur redevelopment.

Regarding the abandoned rail tunnel under College Hill, I would think this would be an essential piece of a future transit system.  Did Brown propose a rubber tire people mover for in the tunnel or were they talking about buses?  Hopefully the approaches to the tunnel are publicly owned so that when the day comes to reopen the tunnel buses/trains can continue into downtown.

Perhaps a LRT line could be built along the side of the Northeast corridor from Pawtucket thru Prov and out to Cranston & Roger Williams Park.

With the current East Side Bus Tunnel, I think the street between the tunnel's west portal and kennedy plaza (Washington St.) should have bus lanes along the south side of the road so that buses and trolleys can run two ways on washington having a more direct route (and dont have to go one block on Main then turn left on Steeple).  Also did I hear that the east side tunnel was going to get some renovations???

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Get out of my head! Those are many of the thoughts I've had. I really like the idea of two-way traffic on Washington for buses heading into the tunnel. I haven't heard anything about renovation to the east side tunnel, but it needs it.

I don't think Brown proposed the work for the abandoned east side tunnel, but I think they were backing it as a way to get students from East Providence to campus. That was interpreted as Brown building housing on the EP waterfront, which wasn't recieved warmly, so Brown has stepped back from it all. They agree opening the tunnel is a good idea, but sya they have nothing to do with it.

I was thinking about the idea of a fareless square, but I wonder if Providence is big enough to allow it to afford such a thing. I'm not sure how the economics of it all work in Portland and Seattle, but it seems that Providence is so small, how do you balance a fareless square that means anything, with needing to bring in fares?

[eltron]

... have thought Elmwood might be a good street for a light rail line since it is a major street in a dense corridor. 

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Huh, funny...

I was just now looking at some historical photos that show a much greener and pleasent Elmwood Avenue with a trolley running right down the middle, circa about 1920. Very nice. I'm working on a project with RIDOT right now for Elmwood Ave...maybe I can convince them to reinstate the trolley !

Actually, we are going to be having public design charettes for the street redesign coming up soon...I'll keep everyone posted if they are interested...

[pdxstreetcar]

I thought I heard there was going to be some money for a tunnel renovation in a budget request that also included a RIPTA CNG fueling station, I dont remember too much more about it.

I think Washington St. (between Memorial & Main) is wider than needed for current traffic (especially the bridge over the river). Theres only 2 travel lanes used now but I would guess the road is wide enough for 4 lanes.

They might be able to do something like this:

-->

-->

<-- BUS

--> BUS

Then make the 1 block section of Washington (by the Fed Bldg & PO) between Exchange & Memorial a bus-only road (since its narrower). This short busway between Main & Kennedy Plaza could also be used for the 33, 34, 60, although mostly just the inbound buses.

[Soren]

I was thinking about the idea of a fareless square, but I wonder if Providence is big enough to allow it to afford such a thing. I'm not sure how the economics of it all work in Portland and Seattle, but it seems that Providence is so small, how do you balance a fareless square that means anything, with needing to bring in fares?

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I love the idea of a fareless square. When I worked in downtown Seattle eons ago I used Metro's "Ride Free Zone" a lot. Of course, downtown Seattle is a long narrow strip, much bigger than Providence. I think one of the benefits, though hard to measure, is it may have encouraged people to try the bus. A lot of people are just afraid to step on a bus.

[Soren]

Here's an interesting dual-mode transit concept piece out of Denmark. It combines the flexibility of bus and auto with some of the gains of light rail.

I'm not sure it is realistic for Rhode Island, but kind of fun to think about:

http://www.ruf.dk/

The only real problem I have with a system like this is the transition to it seems painful.

[Soren]

And while I seem to be thinking of light rail, here's my suggestion for how to start:

Build a single five-mile line from Kennedy Plaza up North Main to Downtown Pawtucket. Most of N. Main is wide enough to easily handle existing lanes plus a light rail line, and there is plenty of vacant land along the way for storage/support facilities (normally built at the end of a line, but why not in the middle?).

The area is densely settled, mostly lower income (in need of mass transit and likely to work locally) and it is a short run.

2nd line: Kennedy Plaza to Olneyville Square via Broadway.

[pdxstreetcar]

Providence seems to me like it would be a good city for a fareless square since its just buses so it would be easy to start up and enforce (as opposed to turnstiles with a subway which would be problematic). In Portland the fareless square is much more extensive than Seattle, it is in effect all day and covers all of downtown and even goes across the river to cover the Arena, Convention Center and huge Lloyd Center mall. I think it definately exposes people to transit esp. those who rarely ride and I think during Waterfire it would be very popular. I could see a fareless square in Providence with a western boundary at I-95, a southern boundary at the new I-195 alignment, eastern boundary at Main Street and a northern boundary at the State House.

Info on Portland's Fareless Square:

http://www.trimet.org/fares/fareless.htm

History of Portland's Fareless Square (started in 1975):

http://www.trimet.org/inside/history/farelesshistory.htm

[pdxstreetcar]

I especially like the North Main LRT line idea. And definately a line west/southwest of downtown like Broadway.

What are RIPTA's busiest lines? These would be good for a LRT conversion.

Maybe the 3rd LRT line could go thru the East Side Rail Tunnel to East Providence.

Providence just seems to me to be the kind of city that would have light rail, whatever that means .

[Soren]

Maybe the 3rd LRT line could go thru the East Side Rail Tunnel to East Providence.

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As much as I would love to see light rail through Wayland Square, I think that would be the toughest political battle in the city, and one better tackled once the concept is widely accepted.

[Cotuit]

As much as I would love to see light rail through Wayland Square, I think that would be the toughest political battle in the city, and one better tackled once the concept is widely accepted.

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There's an abandoned tunnel under Wayland, no tracks on the surface to worry about.

[Soren]

There's an abandoned tunnel under Wayland, no tracks on the surface to worry about.

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No kidding?! Will wonders never cease. What an incredible resource for transit development. Should Providence choose to move to lightrail the development costs would be *much* lower than in many other cities, I would think.

[Cotuit]

See this page at Art In Ruins regarding the tunnel. He's got a nice map there with a possble subway station on Thayer Street.

[Garris]

As much as I would love to see light rail through Wayland Square, I think that would be the toughest political battle in the city, and one better tackled once the concept is widely accepted.

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While I think it's a great idea, living in Wayland Square and having been to some of the neighborhood association meetings, I can promise you that residents there would fight that proposal down to the last breath from their vanilla candle scented living rooms. Most non-renters there like to think of Wayland Sq as some kind of demi-surburb and think it's gone too commercial already. While the rest of Providence has embraced the Wayland Sq Starbucks, it's still hated in some resident circles there as the begining of the end of the "old" Wayland Sq.

I must say, though, that unless there is some kind of large scale urban development on the East Providence end of things very much like what Brown was thinking of with the dorms (which I'm sorry to read posted that they've back away from this... too bad...), I don't think light rail would add enough to justify the cost of bringing it to be. It'll be too hard of a sell without it. It seems like a lot of work just so Brown students could go back and forth from Thayer to downtown...

I love the idea of the North Main and Broadway LRT, though. Those make way more sense as a place to begin and would light a white hot development fire under both of those areas. One it works there, it'd be easier to sell elsewhere.

- Garris

[Cotuit]

I envision the East Side tunnel as the last leg of a light rail commuter line coming in from Fall River.

East Providence is poised to transform their waterfront, Brown dorms or no. The East Side tunnel could also have trains running down the East Bay along the bikepath, and up toward the east side of Pawtucket.

[Cotuit]

I've merged AriPVD's and Vallon's transit threads. It was confusing me having two, and some of the ideas are duplicated in each.

[Vallon]

No responses to my posts... and having my thread merged with ARI's...

Kind of disappointing...

I understand they're similar topics... but I felt like my post was my post... and ARI's was ARI's...

I think i'm more disappointed in the lack of feedback after yesterday more than anything...

[Cotuit]

I think i'm more disappointed in the lack of feedback after yesterday more than anything...

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This is a long term converation. We all have plenty more to talk about on this topic.

[pdxstreetcar]

Just an idea...

[Cotuit]

A "Personal Rapid Transit" proposal from 1999.

Map of proposed PRT network for the downtown of Providence, Rhode Island, prepared by the Raytheon Company in 1999 as part of their advanced marketing work for the PRT 2000 project.

link

[pdxstreetcar]

Thanks Cotuit!!!

I guess it would have been something like this but on a larger scale and 35 years newer...

http://web.presby.edu/~jtbell/transit/Morgantown/

Morgantown, WV PRT system

Here's the PRT 2000 proposed cars:

[Cotuit]

Just an idea...

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Looks good, I started working on a map of some of my ideas last night.

[Garris]

Just an idea...

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Terrific map. This is probably the most realistic and useful proposal. E-mail it to the mayor!

- Garris

[billypc99]

Morgantown, WV...looks like a glorified bus