North Hills / Midtown area developments

[Spatula]

That is pretty ambitious. I'll certainly take North Hills style development over sprawl outside 540 any day.

[InitialD]

Permits were issued this week to begin foundation work. Details/source.

Also in North Hills, a quick snap I took last week of North Hills Tower II:

[Spatula]

Some very unfortunate news for downtown Raleigh. Bank of America is leaving for North Hills.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/business/real-estate-news/article33403020.html

 

The silver lining to this dark tale is that BoA only had a few people left downtown. They were already gone except in name anyway. This won't be a huge loss in terms of workforce. One good thing to come of this is that Allscripts, currently in a suburban office park in north raleigh will be relocating to north hills as well, shifting 1000 workers over to the more urban setting.

[ctl]

Much of the U.S. Trust and Merrill Lynch customer base is in North Raleigh, so North Hills is a reasonable choice. The Merrill Lynch office was on Glenwood just ITB before it moved downtown. At the time First Union's agent was having problems filling the space at 150 Fayetteville.

North Hills is about halfway between Allscripts' current location and downtown. 

[Jones_]

I wish Allscripts would come downtown and we could say, ship First Citizens all the way to North Hills or Wells Fargo. I'm good on North Hills being a white collar corporate sort of sterile and predictable environment and seeing downtown be the tech and creative scene anchored by locally owned retail and restaurants. 

[Spatula]

It's easy to say that... but let's be real. If any of these banks wanted to plant a 40-floor headquarters downtown we'd all be gung-ho for it.

I think with sufficient time, North Hills will eventually become a funky interesting place in its own right. I'd like to see that happen for some neighborhoods in North Raleigh.

[RALNATIVE]

We each have our own visions of growth for the more prominent areas within Raleigh, but to be honest, the vision that matters the most is that of the city leaders. So far, they have yet to put forth a realistic, measureable, and comprehensive plan for how downtown should evolve into anything. Most of their rhetoric up to this point around "growth" planning has been reactionary and based on input from anyone willing to give it. Hopes and dreams for downtown won't get us where we need to go.

 

 

Edited September 9, 2015 by RALNATIVE

[Jones_]

I mean yeah, banks downtown don't set the tempo here, but they do have an impact...whether it's positive or negative is totally subjective of course. They definitely set a higher rent standard and land value all on their own. They also can waltz right in and take out any old block they want regardless of what is there already...most of the bank named buildings in our downtown laid waste to not only stuff on their own site, but needed support infrastructure nearby that resulted in lots of the parking lots we had for a long time. So both of those things impact what is thought of as typical 'creative' building blocks...plentiful funky space, and cheap rent. North Hills re-creation started out day one with the rent equal to that of enclosed malls. Until those rents drop relative to other parts of the city, it'll cater to high end chains and an occasional high end local operation. I'm not really sure what City initiatives would impact downtown in any tangible manner that haven't happened already....I guess they could engage the State on fixing its end of downtown, go all in on things like completing and upgrading sidewalks, LED street lights, beautification through stormwater gardens, massive upgrade to the R-Line and active marketing beyond whatever the CC and DRA already do....is that what you mean ? Forcing of certain architectural standards? If people don't locate downtown, they don't locate downtown. 

Back to north Raleigh, I do kind of like parts of the Falls of Neuse/Wake Forest corridor....there might be some potential there...there is some fabric (small older shopping centers, not terribly pedestrian unfriendly etc.)and some decay that can be seized upon. 

[Spatula]

Raleigh just seems to have an unusually high percentage of people who hate urban development living in it. NIMBYs on the left (Stephenson) and a prevailing corporate preference for suburbs on the right (Odom). It seems like a percentage of people living there came from parts of major cities where the city was such a trauma, they associate anything resembling a major city with slums, industrial decay, pollution, etc and see the suburbs as the solution to this problem. Then they move downtown and complain about there being anything over 5 floors there. In addition there are long-time NC families that want to see Raleigh as it was in their childhood preserved in amber for all time, and any change is destructive change in their mind.

 

This type of mentality exists across the nation. We have a strange love/hate relationship with building tall and dense.

[Spatula]

I guess they could engage the State on fixing its end of downtown, go all in on things like completing and upgrading sidewalks, LED street lights, beautification through stormwater gardens, massive upgrade to the R-Line and active marketing beyond whatever the CC and DRA already do....is that what you mean ? Forcing of certain architectural standards? If people don't locate downtown, they don't locate downtown.

Well for starters, if I were a SimCity god or something, I would probably ban new wood structures in the mixed-use or commercial areas downtown. I'd require ground level retail space in all structures that contain residential or offices. That's not something the "pro-developer" camp would approve of. I'd remove any remaining height restrictions. That's not something the "pro-neighborhood" camp would approve of.

I would try to lure specific enterprises downtown, some companies from RTP, some retail forms to fill needed gaps, as well as negotiating with Cameron Village to reopen and renovate the Village Subway.

Since we're just listing things off... I don't like the plans for Moore Square. It looks like change for the sake of change. Until we can think of a plan that looks better, I'd just give the block a facelift, improve the lighting and walkways on it, and spend the rest of the money on more important things like improving the streetscape of critical pedestrian areas (Glenwood South first and foremost, then W Dave, W Martin, S Harrington, S West in the Warehouse District, and N Person street as well).

Fairly certain I'd be unelectable for that (Disregarding the fact that I'm already several shades of unelectable for other reasons). That doesn't seem to be what the people of Raleigh want.

[ctl]

Yes, there are people who have bad memories of urban living. Survivors of NY in the 1970s, for example. (Anyone whose first visit to NY was 1990 or later has no idea.) Likewise there are people whose avoidance of urban living is driven by racism and fear. And there are people OTB who might switch to urban living if more urban living were available at affordable prices, i.e. $150/ft² which is typical OTB. But on the other hand, there are people who genuinely prefer suburban living without having prejudice against urban living. Don't throw them into the same bucket. Reality is, about 75% of Raleigh's population lives either OTB or in sprawling subdivisions ITB like White Oak.

There are limits on what the City can arm-twist developers into. Ultimately developers have the means and the opportunity to go OTB (or leave Raleigh altogether) if they don't like what the City is doing in downtown. Developers vary in their tolerance for City activism and their interest in ITB, but beyond that all developers think alike and there is not an endless supply of them. Doesn't take long for Council to figure that out, regardless of who gets elected. As for luring certain companies downtown from RTP, that's tricky. Much of the workforce of RTP companies lives in Apex, Cary, Chapel Hill, Durham, Holly Springs, Morrisville, Wake Forest or far north Raleigh along 540. In general those employees have no desire to commute into downtown Raleigh, and indeed they rarely set foot in downtown Raleigh. When the economy is good and HR attrition is already a concern for many employers, they're reluctant to perturb their employee populations. You would have to throw a very tasty bone at a existing RTP tenant (or a nearby company, like Lenovo) to induce them to move. And as soon as that tasty bone becomes public, there are allegations of favoritism and unfair treatment from companies who didn't get offered the bone.

Don't you believe somebody would reopen the Village Subway if a sustainable profit could be made there? Nobody wants another Atlanta Underground II on their hands. 

Edited September 10, 2015 by ctl

[RaleighHeelsfan]

I agree with some of what you are saying but dowtown is a central location for everyone. RTP is not a central location for anyone. Companies flee downtown all the time...including the one I work for. We are leaving dowtown for North Raleigh!!! Oh boy!!! Now how is this fair for me who lives in F-V??? So tell me again why we could not lure companies from RTP??? Companies move all the time...heck...they even leave the state and country! The city or the people just don't seem to care about downtown.

Yes, there are people who have bad memories of urban living. Survivors of NY in the 1970s, for example. (Anyone whose first visit to NY was 1990 or later has no idea.) Likewise there are people whose avoidance of urban living is driven by racism and fear. And there are people OTB who might switch to urban living if more urban living were available at affordable prices, i.e. $150/ft² which is typical OTB. But on the other hand, there are people who genuinely prefer suburban living without having prejudice against urban living. Don't throw them into the same bucket. Reality is, about 75% of Raleigh's population lives either OTB or in sprawling subdivisions ITB like White Oak.

There are limits on what the City can arm-twist developers into. Ultimately developers have the means and the opportunity to go OTB (or leave Raleigh altogether) if they don't like what the City is doing in downtown. Developers vary in their tolerance for City activism and their interest in ITB, but beyond that all developers think alike and there is not an endless supply of them. Doesn't take long for Council to figure that out, regardless of who gets elected. As for luring certain companies downtown from RTP, that's tricky. Much of the workforce of RTP companies lives in Apex, Cary, Chapel Hill, Durham, Holly Springs, Morrisville, Wake Forest or far north Raleigh along 540. In general those employees have no desire to commute into downtown Raleigh, and indeed they rarely set foot in downtown Raleigh. When the economy is good and HR attrition is already a concern for many employers, they're reluctant to perturb their employee populations. You would have to throw a very tasty bone at a existing RTP tenant (or a nearby company, like Lenovo) to induce them to move. And as soon as that tasty bone becomes public, there are allegations of favoritism and unfair treatment from companies who didn't get offered the bone.

Don't you believe somebody would reopen the Village Subway if a sustainable profit could be made there? Nobody wants another Atlanta Underground II on their hands. 

[ctl]

Downtown Raleigh is central? Depends on one's perspective. I live inside the city limits of Raleigh, but it's faster for me to get to RTP than downtown -- even in rush hour. (Crabtree is the killer.) I'm 9 miles from downtown and 11 miles from the 40/540 interchange. Usually I can get to downtown Durham in about the same time as downtown Raleigh. For people in Brier Creek inside the Raleigh limits, downtown Durham is far more accessible than downtown Raleigh.

Sure, if I lived in F-V and my employer moved from downtown Raleigh to North Hills or (worse) 540 in North Raleigh, I'd be hacked off too. But it's still a move from one point in Raleigh to another. Suppose they were moving your job to Chapel Hill. That's my point about inducing employers to relocate from RTP to downtown Raleigh, or ATC in Durham, or the former Chapel Hill airport. Employers do move within cities, and they do move between states. For that matter, employers move inside RTP too. But historically there has been very little movement from RTP to any of the three cornerstone cities. There has actually been more movement in the opposite direction. For example, IBM used to have people in Raleigh but moved them all to RTP. 

Edited September 10, 2015 by ctl

[Spatula]

There are limits on what the City can arm-twist developers into. Ultimately developers have the means and the opportunity to go OTB (or leave Raleigh altogether) if they don't like what the City is doing in downtown. Developers vary in their tolerance for City activism and their interest in ITB, but beyond that all developers think alike and there is not an endless supply of them. Doesn't take long for Council to figure that out, regardless of who gets elected. As for luring certain companies downtown from RTP, that's tricky. Much of the workforce of RTP companies lives in Apex, Cary, Chapel Hill, Durham, Holly Springs, Morrisville, Wake Forest or far north Raleigh along 540. In general those employees have no desire to commute into downtown Raleigh, and indeed they rarely set foot in downtown Raleigh. When the economy is good and HR attrition is already a concern for many employers, they're reluctant to perturb their employee populations. You would have to throw a very tasty bone at a existing RTP tenant (or a nearby company, like Lenovo) to induce them to move. And as soon as that tasty bone becomes public, there are allegations of favoritism and unfair treatment from companies who didn't get offered the bone.

Don't you believe somebody would reopen the Village Subway if a sustainable profit could be made there? Nobody wants another Atlanta Underground II on their hands. 

There are limits but the kind of stuff I'm talking about is fairly moderate compared to the level of control say, Portland exerts on developers. We can't have urban growth boundaries because that requires state cooperation, and the politics at the state level are simply not there. There are other things I could've suggested--having a height to width ratio in all new developments, to cut down on monolithic apartment blocks and encourage smaller (or taller) projects. That sort of thing surely would be impossible in the current political system. I think what I proposed was fairly reserved and pragmatic.

 

Much of the workforce in RTP also lives ITB. That's a fact jack. I think the Red Hat method of getting a company into Centennial Campus, and then leaving the door open for them to shift into downtown later, could be a plausible method for moving a few others into downtown. The workforce connected to NCSU are largely ITB so companies relying on engineering grads, for instance, would have good reason to locate downtown. Just as you said there are people who live in the suburbs because there aren't other options currently--but who would live in a more urban place if they could, there are companies that moved to RTP when it was the only game in town who might prefer a more urban setting as well. Raleigh should put feelers out there. Durham already is doing this quite aggressively.

 

As for the Village Subway... what are you talking about with regards to sustainable profit? The property is already there, accumulating property tax. The cost of making it comply with fire codes is minimal. It'd be chump change to add another tunnel entrance and upgrade the ceilings/sprinklers/handicap access. Cameron Village is a deadzone after 9 pm. It probably would generate more money if there were businesses that catered to a night crowd there. I think the reason the underground isn't reopening is more likely to be a function of Cameron Village's politics--it doesn't fit in with the owner's aesthetic. Otherwise there's a ton of support for reopening the place.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Spatula

[ctl]

Let's think about that. 55,000 people work in RTP according to the foundation's website. Another 15,000 work on the periphery of RTP in office parks, e.g. Lenovo. Say it's 70,000 total. There are 130,000 residents of all ages ITB (fewer than Cary, by the way). Throw out the students, the retired, the non-workers and you probably have an active workforce ITB of 60,000. A disproportionate percentage of them work ITB, naturally. So my guess is that out of the 70,000 working in or near RTP there are 10,000 living ITB. There's not a doubt in my mind that Raleigh OTB and Cary account for more than that. I suspect the breakdown is 20,000 Raleigh OTB (simply because OTB is so much more populous than ITB), 20,000 in Cary/Morrisville/Apex (proximity), 10,000 in Durham/CH, and the other 10,000 split up among the other towns and the outlying counties.

RedHat and Citrix are great accomplishments, and if the City of Raleigh can do more of that, let them have at it. Startups, spinouts, and new corporate relo's are the best targets for Raleigh and Durham to chase. Forget IBM, Glaxo, and Cisco.  

Edited September 10, 2015 by ctl

[RaleighHeelsfan]

I stll think downtown (Geographically) is center for the triangle. Don't forget there are people from Clayton east and north going to RTP. Harnett co, F-V that all work at RTP. None of this is a problem with mass transit!! Ha ha. I will see this when I am 80

[RALNATIVE]

It appears that tower II has topped out. It looks better than the renderings depicted.

[Green_man]

Allscripts has steel framing up to the 4th floor.  Retirement community is around 4-5 floors.  Dartmouth apartments are topped out.  And the site for the 16 story Plaza apartments is fenced off with some heavy machinery inside.

[RALNATIVE]

Once built out, this will be one of the nicest, densest urban developments in NC.

 

 

[Jones_]

Good development...bad transportation infrastructure supporting it. It really only fronts two roads that support ingress and egress. I'd say not only does it need 4 accessible sides, but this density really should be on two downtown size blocks each with 4 sides. The City should consider drastic improvements like say punching Quail Hollow over the beltline to Browning or Barrett. 

 

[Green_man]

Agree completely!  And the road layout within North Hills East definitely feels like an afterthought.  The 4 way stop at the main entrance and the weird intersection at Chuy's.  They worked ok when it was just the handful of buildings, but now that its getting fully built out, the confusion will just get worse.  The layout kind of ensures that it will always be car-oriented and pedestrians will be 2nd class.  As opposed to the downtown grid where each are equal or in favor of pedestrians.

I also think they will regret making it too dense.  In my opinion, they should have shifted the Plaza apartment building toward the Beltline and doubled the size of the park.

[Jones_]

It's too bad the Plaza isn't connected to the greenway system. I mean, its too bad most of the north Raleigh parks aren't connected to the greenway system....Eastgate, Cedar Hills and Optimist I think all have creeks or main sewer easements nearby, that would have leant themselves to a nice big loop. Imagine hundreds of people making their way to Plaza concerts from the neighborhoods the to north. Perhaps the idea of people parking in their neighborhoods to use the greenway access would put off the people in those 'hoods....

Like the dozens of plans floated to 'fix' Crabtree Valley over the decades yet nothing ever gets done, I fear North Hills will just be allowed to fester, and a development with some good buildings and general idea, will be allowed to fester in its own steaming mess and no attempt to clean it up ever gets made...

[ctl]

Yes, unfortunately there are only two greenway trails fully connected into north Raleigh OTB. The Mine Creek Trail and its branches connect to North Hills Park, Shelly Lake, and Optimist (sort of). Eventually it will reach Honeycutt at 540 and extend close to the Wilkerson Nature Preserve. The other thread is the Neuse River Trail and its branches that connect to Horseshoe Farm, North Wake Landfill Park, and Durant Nature Preserve.

But this leaves several major parks without connectivity to ITB, most notably Lake Lynn and Wooten Meadow. And some parks don't have any greenway access at all... Leesville, Strickland, Brookhaven, Cedar Hills, etc.

[MireLanski]

Here are the latest renderings of Park Central (Plaza) and the AC Hotel:

[RALNATIVE]

Interesting article on the AC Hotel:

http://wncn.com/2015/12/15/new-european-inspired-hotel-rising-at-raleighs-north-hills/