Will a Florida city ever get a 1000 footer?

[TallTampa]

^Trump Tower is already 98% sold, with a waiting list if any one drops out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't listen to Donald's hype. No one's seen the actual figures yet and NONE of the units have been closed on yet, these supposed buyers have just given a deposit. I'd love to see it, but I've been disapointed too many times. Ground breaking suppose to take place in late April or May, we'll see....

[mcruder]

Don't listen to Donald's hype. No one's seen the actual figures yet and NONE of the units have been closed on yet, these supposed buyers have just given a deposit. I'd love to see it, but I've been disapointed too many times. Ground breaking suppose to take place in late April or May, we'll see....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

^ I know that these buyers have only given deposits so far, but I sure hope that these units get closed on. Maybe this will be a turning point for projects in Tampa, hopefully we will never see so many projects die off again

[TallTampa]

^ I know that these buyers have only given deposits so far, but I sure hope that these units get closed on. Maybe this will be a turning point for projects in Tampa, hopefully we will never see so many projects die off again

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Brother, I hope you're right. I was downtown yesterday and it looks like the Towers at Channelside and Pinnacle Place are well underway.

[mcruder]

Brother, I hope you're right. I was downtown yesterday and it looks like the Towers at Channelside  and Pinnacle Place are well underway.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Awesome! I can't wait to see what downtown will be like in 5 years, I can only imagine!

[bobliocatt]

The diagram showing Jax's proposed Riverpointe Twins is wrong. When completed, they will become the city's tallest buildings at 619ft (roof) and 750ft (including spires). I assume the guy on SSP just got his numbers mixed up.

[miamistreets]

while you guys are waiting to see Tampa(i think)in a few year, Im waiting to see Miami in 5 years.By 2009 Metropolitan Miami will be done,and thats 4 years away.By then i think Miami might be acknowledged for its skyscrapers a little bit more than now.And if i get to become an architect,Miami just might get a 2000 footer.(jp.only if they let me).

[thehappysmith]

I think the ONLY city in Florida likely to see a 1000 foot building in the next few decades is Miami. Office vacancy rates in every other downtown are approaching 15% and higher, and this ain't exactly Chicago or Manhattan here. Until downtown is 24/7 with numerous different work options and active, convenient retail for all economic classes, you won't find cause for a 1000 residential tower. The downtown condo boom is great, but notice that the price floors are generally around $200k, and that's before the dagum flippers get to it. A city needs to have affordable housing in downtown before it can truly have a living 24-hour downtown. Chicago and New York, maybe Boston, are the only such places in America right now (maybe Washington...sketchy). That's honestly what it takes for a super-tall res tower. Tampa is considering a 675-foot office tower, but they haven't even got 30% of it leased yet. If that ever gets built, it'll put the kibosh on new office development in town for a decade at least, and certainly there won't be any 1000-footers.

Jax doesn't even have any plans that I'm aware of for a new office tower downtown, and I don't expect to see any soon.

Miami, on the other hand, is on its way to developing a real living downtown, and it's a truly international city so the domestic and regional economy isn't the only driver. The Venezuelans could build a 1000 foot tower in Miami next year. You just never know.

[Viper]

It doesn't have to be residential, just 1000 ft. and technically, spires count.

[bobliocatt]

I think the ONLY city in Florida likely to see a 1000 foot building in the next few decades is Miami.  Office vacancy rates in every other downtown are approaching 15% and higher, and this ain't exactly Chicago or Manhattan here.  Until downtown is 24/7 with numerous different work options and active, convenient retail for all economic classes, you won't find cause for a 1000 residential tower.  The downtown condo boom is great, but notice that the price floors are generally around $200k, and that's before the dagum flippers get to it.  A city needs to have affordable housing in downtown before it can truly have a living 24-hour downtown.  Chicago and New York, maybe Boston, are the only such places in America right now (maybe Washington...sketchy).  That's honestly what it takes for a super-tall res tower.  Tampa is considering a 675-foot office tower, but they haven't even got 30% of it leased yet.  If that ever gets built, it'll put the kibosh on new office development in town for a decade at least, and certainly there won't be any 1000-footers.

Jax doesn't even have any plans that I'm aware of for a new office tower downtown, and I don't expect to see any soon. 

Miami, on the other hand, is on its way to developing a real living downtown, and it's a truly international city so the domestic and regional economy isn't the only driver.  The Venezuelans could build a 1000 foot tower in Miami next year.  You just never know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The 31 story Old JEA tower addition, would be a combination of residential condos and office space for law firms looking to be close to the new courthouse. I haven't heard anything about a 675ft office tower planned for Tampa. I assume you're talking about the 600ft Hillsborough River Tower, which as a slim chance of ever being built, dut to downtown's slumping office market.

[miamistreets]

wow thehappysmith,if you were a salesman,i wouldve bought your item by now.

[thehappysmith]

The notes I have on HRT at Bayciti put the tower at 675 feet, but regardless of whether it's 600 or 675 it would, if built, pretty much end new office construction downtown for many years.

Like you, lakelander, I doubt it will ever actually get built. If anybody wants to lease about 310,000 sf of office space in downtown Tampa, though... I mean, it would be a nice addition to the skyline. I'm sure the developers would love to hear from you.

[bande_originale]

To answer the question: no. The tallest currently is the Four Seasons building in Miami, which, as many posters have pointed out, is near the upper bound of feasible height for a condo/hotel building. Florida downtowns simply don't have the demand for lots of office space-- the development momentum is slow compared to places like Chicago and Manhattan and decentralized employment patterns have been the rule of the day for years (Florida's population really began to grow when sprawl was taking root as the paradigm of American development). And I'm a doomsday thinker, but I really don't think the same American economic supremacy that turned our cities' skylines into glass-and-metal wedding cakes is going to last much longer. Even if skyscraper development and construction are still in demand after years of Bush's plummeting dollar and increasingly expensive construction materials, all bets are off once cheap oil is gone for good.

Expect to see increasingly dense skylines in Asian cities and the big American ones where construction and land costs don't lock old, 'ugly' high-rises in a practical pattern of usefulness: cities like Chicago, Atlanta, Miami, and Houston (which are also cities that know how to swing a wrecking ball). Then when the oil-based economy collapses and we can no longer afford the energy to keep these buildings in use, we won't build any more.

[bande_originale]

The notes I have on HRT at Bayciti put the tower at 675 feet, but regardless of whether it's 600 or 675 it would, if built, pretty much end new office construction downtown for many years.

Like you, lakelander, I doubt it will ever actually get built.  If anybody wants to lease about 310,000 sf of office space in downtown Tampa, though... I mean, it would be a nice addition to the skyline.  I'm sure the developers would love to hear from you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wasn't the HRT proposed in the late 1990s? I never really knew if it got approved, but I assumed that even if so the economic tank and high-rise scare after 9/11 effectively killed it.

Tampa's skyline appears to be constrained by a height limit-- two buildings at almost exactly the same height, six years apart. But there's no mention of anything the height of those two in the regs for the two CBD zoning districts-- is there also a cap on height/density bonuses? Does the airport on Davis Island invoke review by the friggin' FAA (like Executive does in Orlando)?

[Viper]

Bush's dollar? Oil-based economy collapse?

When will people learn that the American economy is not a presidential factor? America needs a huge dose of economic education while still in school.

You do realize that it's more cost efficient to heat, cool and provide electricity to a skyscraper than a large office or residential complex?

[Dale]

Bush's dollar?  Oil-based economy collapse?

When will people learn that the American economy is not a presidential factor?  America needs a huge dose of economic education while still in school.

You do realize that it's more cost efficient to heat, cool and provide electricity to a skyscraper than a large office or residential complex?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you noticed how deftly he slid 'Bush' in there too ?

[miamistreets]

I think that problems in the economy isnt really the presidents fault,besides the war in Iraq.(But im a republican so maybe thats why i said what i said).

Miami Rules!!!

[RiversideGator]

Considering that our economy is based on the free market (i.e. millions of people acting in their own best interests which in the aggregate creates economic development) and is not a command economy run by the President (like the old USSR or Cuba now), I dont think Bush can control too much. The federal govt should lower taxes, control spending, provide for national security, reduce red tape and get out of the way, for the most part. As for the oil based economy, stats now reveal that the economy is only one-half as reliant on oil as it was just 25 years ago. And, if oil becomes too expensive, we will develop a better source of energy. The sky is not falling.

[Viper]

Thanks you. Glad to know a few of you paid attention in class.

[bande_originale]

I am well aware that the president does not control the economy directly. But the president does set fiscal policies which have plenty of economic impact. The United States has an unprecedented budget deficit. This leads to increased borrowing from other nations and decreased confidence that foreign investors have in the United States. If they're less confident investing here, they purchase fewer American dollars with which to make their investments. And as a good free-market apologist should understand, if there's less buying activity, it is interpreted in the market as a decrease in demand, which leads to a lower price. The dollar is worth less.

I'm not trying to interject politics (even though I've made mine very clear), but if you have an unprecedented budget deficit, wage a (costly) war, and STILL insist on cutting taxes farther and farther, you are impacting the economy. Mending the budget deficit (maybe by rolling back a few tax cuts while the nation is at war...) would have done a lot more for the dollar's value than pressuring China to let its currency float freely on world markets. But my concerns over American economic decline affecting skyscraper construction aren't supposed to be liberal ranting. In truth, I wonder how many more skyscrapers we'd be building even if we were assured of indefinite economic stability. No one is living in any of these things getting built (in Florida); they're investment properties and second homes. Florida has a long history of land/real estate speculation, and an equally long history of land/real estate busts. Eventually, construction will slow down and stop. When they're half-vacant and just sitting there, visionary city planners and politicians may shift their thinking on 'highest and best use' to a use that maximizes its contribution to city vitality. Why do we need a 1,000-foot office tower in a downtown with double-digit vacancy rates? Or a 60-story condo building that will have 20 percent of its lights on during the week?

Go ahead, flame away. People share plenty of opinions here, and I think a 1,000-foot skyscraper says nothing but 'this city has enough money and power to try to impress someone.' I'm much more impressed by a place with a low skyline where people are out on the streets past the business day, proximity to public space is at a premium (so public space is consequently well designed), and a continuum of dense development builds a richness of paths, places, and urban experiences for people who live and visit there.

I do have to ask, though: why is everyone so assured that the transition out of an oil-based economy will happen smoothly? We couldn't find an alternative today: our dependency may have decreased (and what statistics say so?), but we are still hopelessly dependent. This economic apocalypse is going to be ugly and it's going to have plenty of civil unrest and military action. When world peak oil production passes and our supply dwindles, the oil-slurping U.S.A. and China will both be clamoring for greater shares of the diminishing amount and they'll be the two nations in the world that still have formidable militaries. Duck and cover.

[Viper]

Of the downtown housing in Jacksonville, it's most largely occupied.

I can't speak for Tampa, Orlando and Miami but when people buy a home in Downtown Jax, they typically move in.

[bande_originale]

Yeah, I wouldn't think it's as hot as an investment market. And you have to outgrow that 'great place to raise a family' crap sometime.

[afh]

Yeah, I wouldn't think it's as hot as an investment market.  And you have to outgrow that 'great place to raise a family' crap sometime.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would venture to guess that there are plenty of investors buying the condos being built in Jacksonville and elsewhere across the state. I was watching CNBC this morning and a housing analyst came on and said that 60% of the condos bought in Florida are sold to investors who "flip" them. The nationwide average is 1/3 or 33.3333%. There is just much condo development taking place in Florida than there is in other markets so you can see why the number is 60%. More inventory to buy means that there will be more investors. With interest rates being what they are and condo development heating up in Jacksonville, I can see even more investors coming. All the investors want is the opportunity to "flip" the place for more money so being a good place to raise a family has nothing to do with it. It's called capitalism. Most of the places in Florida are good places to raise a family. Where I'm at in Phoenix/Chandler is a good place to raise a family. Nothing wrong with that. It doesn't stop people from coming in and buying property.

[RiversideGator]

And yet:

American household wealth surges to new record

http://www.reuters.com/printerFriendlyPopu...storyID=7868333

[thehappysmith]

Ahem.

I used to work in politics and I will not discuss it. There are plenty of blogs on the net for that, most populated by uneducated people who prefer Crossfire-style shouting matches to reasoned discussion.

Bande_original asked about the Hillsborough River Tower and I will respond to that, however.

The building was indeed proposed in the 1990's, I think in 1997 to be specific. It's a Cesar Pelli design, and has been through all the preliminary legal work. The building is approved by the city and county, the infrastructure work is, so I'm told, all in place, and quite literally all the developers are waiting on is a tenant to lease 30%.

That said, they may continue waiting for a long time, and there is a statute of limitations on such approvals.

More likely in office development news for Tampa is the Maas Bros. department store block on Franklin St. The block was bought by Pradip Patel, who intends a mixed-use development on the site (the building, though of some historic interest, is not salvageable). Patel, who just purchased the property in the last month or so, has not released any firm plans yet so it's not know how much office space he plans to put in, or even how big the project is going to be. But Patel is highly regarded; we can hope the project once built will reflect his reputation.

[thehappysmith]

Also, as to the airport question, Peter O. Knight airport does in fact require FAA review of new construction, but not in downtown. The airport's runway alignment is such that no part of the straight in approach or departure patterns engender conflict with the downtown area. However, the southern end of Harbour Island, and much of the port area, are in the flight path for Knight and so heights would be limited there, as they would be at the extreme southeastern tip of the Channelside area.

That said I fly out of Peter O. Knight on weekends and think it's probably the best little urban GA airport ever. I'd be very upset if the city decided to shut it down, like St. Pete tried with Whitted.