Eastland Mall Redevelopment

[nowensone]

I seem to have missed one of these developers falling out, as of now the Observer is reporting that the "two" potential developers have no use for the mall.  Back to spending most of a mil to demolish it.

Edited May 2, 2013 by nowensone

[DMann]

I seem to have missed one of these developers falling out, as of now the Observer is reporting that the "two" potential developers have no use for the mall.  Back to spending most of a mil to demolish it.

Who didn't see that coming?

[mallguy]

Who didn't see that coming?

City Council.

 

The private sector and average citizens sure did, though.

 

So much for the wisdom of entrusting decisions to government.

[Third Strike]

City Council will be voting on demolishing Eastland Mall tonight. Also, the final deadline for the developers to submit their full proposals is due on May 30. Maybe we'll finally get a chance to hear about Arc Venture's (NC Music Factory developer) plans.

 

Update: Yup, the city council has voted in favor of demolishing the Eastland Mall (10-1).

Edited May 29, 2013 by Third Strike

[15895]

I hope the Eastland Mall site can become a new neighborhood, with a downtown type section, gridded out, transit/pedestrian oriented with a few office buildings sprinkled throughout.

CityLynx Gold Line should be leveraged by any developer as a key piece & entrance to Eastland. I'd be highly disappointed if being the terminus of CityLynx isn't one of the key parts of Eastlands' Development.

[mallguy]

So here's what I see:

 

City Council blew a few million dollars to buy a property that no developer would otherwise touch.  (Hmmm, wonder why?  A slummy mall with no tenants in a rough area--maybe the private sector's lack of interest actually meant that any money spent on the site would be wasted.)

 

Now City Council is spending more to tear it down. 

 

And, get this: the Charlotte historic commission is considering giving protection to the Eastland sun logo sign, and at least some members of City Council want to make the Eastland sun logo sign the centerpiece of some public art on the site.

 

So what we get for millions of tax dollars blown for nothing is...a vacant lot with that unattractive sun logo sign as the centerpiece.  Really? 

 

And I thought that Glimcher was idiotic for buying a 1970s mall when it did, in the late '90s, when the area was starting to go downhill.

[15895]

^ I applaud the city for trying to revitalize the Eastland area

[rooster8]

I really don't see the purchase and demolition of this mall any different than if the city had purchased a crack house and tore it down.  Of course there is a huge difference in money, but likely no other buyer would have had the clout or resources to secure the entire property in order to clear it for redevelopment.

 

If the city had gone through with the movie studio concept, and spent significant funds on that, then I'd agree that it would have been a huge waste.

[tozmervo]

All things being equal, I'm not really sure what else could have happened. Because of the demographics in the area, most developers turn up their noses at doing anything out there.

 

And yes, the city is having the signs removed and put into storage for future use, which I appreciate. It's a well recognized and very unique asset in a city with not many to begin with.

[Third Strike]

I hope the Eastland Mall site can become a new neighborhood, with a downtown type section, gridded out, transit/pedestrian oriented with a few office buildings sprinkled throughout.

CityLynx Gold Line should be leveraged by any developer as a key piece & entrance to Eastland. I'd be highly disappointed if being the terminus of CityLynx isn't one of the key parts of Eastlands' Development.

 

I think one example of the Eastland Mall being redeveloped into a mixed-use complex is the North Hills Plaza in Raleigh.

 

Very similar story to Eastland, it began to deteriorate in the 90s, and was demolished in the early 2000s (save for the one anchor building, and parking deck). The site was then redeveloped into a mixed-use, outdoor shopping complex (residental, shopping, offices, hotels, entertainment, etc), and it has been thriving since. I wouldn't say that this area the mall was located in is as low income as Eastland (although a quick glimpse in Google Maps shows that the area appears a bit middle income in several parts), but a similar, lesser site could also work for the site of Eastland Mall. Also, future-proofing the site as a run-through for the CityLynx could also be a big booster for not just the site, but the entire area. This is what I'm really hoping for from Arks Venture.

 

Here's the website of North Hills to see how their mixed-use development looks like:

 

http://www.northhillsraleigh.com/

[southslider]

Gold Line will never go out Central. Route 9 will sooner become a Sprinter to Albemarle and WT Harris. Eastland is today less active in total ridership than Harris, Eastway Drive, Farm Pond Lane, or even Winterfield Place, despite having a nice transit center.

[Third Strike]

Gold Line will never go out Central. Route 9 will sooner become a Sprinter to Albemarle and WT Harris. Eastland is today less active in total ridership than Harris, Eastway Drive, Farm Pond Lane, or even Winterfield Place, despite having a nice transit center.

 

Couldn't it be assumed that ridership in Eastland declined because of the closure of the mall? I guess it'll be interesting to see if there's an impact on ridership in the area, once the site gets redevelop (in a meaningful way that would serve the community).

[Urbanity]

I hope the Eastland Mall site can become a new neighborhood, with a downtown type section, gridded out, transit/pedestrian oriented with a few office buildings sprinkled throughout.

CityLynx Gold Line should be leveraged by any developer as a key piece & entrance to Eastland. I'd be highly disappointed if being the terminus of CityLynx isn't one of the key parts of Eastlands' Development.

 

I fully agree with this and I think it's the heart of many of the proposals.

So here's what I see:

 

City Council blew a few million dollars to buy a property that no developer would otherwise touch.  (Hmmm, wonder why?  A slummy mall with no tenants in a rough area--maybe the private sector's lack of interest actually meant that any money spent on the site would be wasted.)

 

Now City Council is spending more to tear it down. 

 

And, get this: the Charlotte historic commission is considering giving protection to the Eastland sun logo sign, and at least some members of City Council want to make the Eastland sun logo sign the centerpiece of some public art on the site.

 

So what we get for millions of tax dollars blown for nothing is...a vacant lot with that unattractive sun logo sign as the centerpiece.  Really? 

 

And I thought that Glimcher was idiotic for buying a 1970s mall when it did, in the late '90s, when the area was starting to go downhill.

Actually what we get for it is an opportunity to take blight and transform it.

 

For the record - it's not true that no developer expressed interest in the site.  It was that no developer's proposal was worth it to the city as they would still be on the hook for a lot of property issues.

 

I get that you disagree with the city's direction on Eastland mall, but I think you're being a little simplistic and overreaching in your summary assessments on the value of what is being done.

[ah59396]

I typically agree with you Urbanity, but I have to side with mallguy in a lot of ways on this one.  This seems like a major botch-job to me that the City Council is desperately trying to clean up.  I think they got taken for a trip by the previous owners, having them believe there were potential buyers in the shadows just waiting for the opportunity.  Then, as soon as the city bought, "POOF", all gone.  

 

It's not like this area of Charlotte is in high demand, or is somehow strapped for land.  If a developer truly wanted to come in, there are plenty of places to do it besides Eastland, and probably cheaper.  And honestly, if I am building something, anything in Charlotte, I would need to simply drive through this area to decide "no thanks".  I just don't buy this "transformative" project happening.

 

A lot more than replacing the mall needs to happen in this part of Charlotte.  I don't think the city should be involved in it's development.  You want to build transit, police stations, better sidewalks, okay; great.  But we bought a big, rotten egg.

[15895]

^ exactly though.

It's a HUGE rotten egg. No one.... Absolutly no one would buy the entire site and redevelop it. No one would want to develop in the area (considering allll the developable places in Charlotte). No one would want to buy a parcel to a run down mall...

Why would any developer want to develop near a "rotten egg"? This is one of the most important projects IMO and it can't happen soon enough! Let's bulldoze it, pave over it, get out the cookie dough cutters and roll something out.

[Urbanity]

OK Ok - maybe I am quick to judge and I see all of your points (mallguy - apologies if I came on too strong) but my gut still tells me I'm right with this one.

 

My thinking is based off of the idea that a lot of interest that I remember was during the period of just before the economy went bust period when everything was a planned project.  Though we have come back (not as strong, but we're getting there) it's still not a mega project time in Charlotte.  The city is under pressure from the East side (rightfully so) to start investing there and helping to transform the area.   Eastside mall is one of the biggest and easiest choices to place a focus on.

 

I personally feel the city's investment was far from throwing good money after bad.  It was and is making the area ripe for development that I (with no facts, just belief) see coming there.   Time is going to tell if the city made the right choice.  My gut tells me that in 5-10 years that site will be more of an asset to the city including tax base and strengthening the East side than if it was left to just sit there and wait for a developer to come in and buy it and then develop it.

[mallguy]

Urbanity, your response was totally fine- no worries at all- and I respect your position.

 

I just see little going for the Eastland site, other than it being 90 or so acres of now-developable land.

 

Studies and government focus on Eastland started in the early- to mid-2000s, when development was booming and Eastland was clearly on its way down but still had some life and could have been repurposed.  There were no takers on a redevelopment then, when times were better.  Similarly, its former owner, Glimcher, bought the property in the 1990s and did nothing with it, even though surely it would have invested something if there were a hope of a positive return.  It didn't.

 

If redevelopment didn't happen years ago, when talk of redevelopment was ripe but nothing happened, then I don't see anything happening with the site in the near future.

 

Downsides:

* Terrible demographics, with high poverty rates in the area and stagnant, if not shrinking, household incomes

* Poor accessibility, not near a major highway and requiring driving through multiple back streets to get there from Independence Boulevard

* Little complementary development nearby (there are multiple derelict office buildings and shopping centers nearby, indicating plenty of other sites for prospective users, and not enough demand)

* No likely users (multiple suggested buyers and plans have fallen through, and even Walmart and Target have stores that are close enough that they wouldn't locate there, and typical government uses are all in or near uptown)

* I assume that zoning excludes industrial uses, which eliminates one typical user of land in similar areas, but there are no rail or highway links nearby anyhow

 

Upsides:

* 90 acres of land

 

The only thing that I can see going on the Eastland site is middle-income to low-income housing.  If Eastland were next to uptown or a nicer area, then there would be hope, but I see none.

Edited June 1, 2013 by mallguy

[nowensone]

90 acres big enough for a large, nationally-marketable zoo?  Just need a high-capacity connection to Independence.    Trying to think outside the box, it is difficult, I lived about 3 miles from Eastland many years ago, my memories of the area are very different than it's current state.  Any large scale projects, as variously said or hinted at above, require private/public sector buy-in (and funds), and any I can think of are pipe dreams outside of residential, which would still see the city spending on utilities and other infrastructure improvements.

[southslider]

I'm so tired of everyone saying Central Avenue is blighted, or has horrible demographics, when the corridor actually has fewer retail vacancies than the newest strip malls farther out of town.  Immigrant businesses constitute free enterprise, and are a deeply American tradition.

 

East Charlotte's strength is its diversity among all the newer residents.  Its weakness, however, is that these newer residents aren't included in the political decision-making process.  The old guard clings to its power and fights for the way things used to be, instead of embracing multicultural change.

 

If the old guard had been supportive of a Fiesta Mall concept (similar to that near Carowinds), then the City could have spent the money on infrastructure across all of East Charlotte, as it was originally intended in the bond.  But instead, the money will be used for Charlotte's latest form of white-washing urban renewal.

[mallguy]

I'm so tired of everyone saying Central Avenue is blighted, or has horrible demographics, when the corridor actually has fewer retail vacancies than the newest strip malls farther out of town.  Immigrant businesses constitute free enterprise, and are a deeply American tradition.

 

East Charlotte's strength is its diversity among all the newer residents.  Its weakness, however, is that these newer residents aren't included in the political decision-making process.  The old guard clings to its power and fights for the way things used to be, instead of embracing multicultural change.

 

If the old guard had been supportive of a Fiesta Mall concept (similar to that near Carowinds), then the City could have spent the money on infrastructure across all of East Charlotte, as it was originally intended in the bond.  But instead, the money will be used for Charlotte's latest form of white-washing urban renewal.

 

Let's not turn this discussion into a racial battle, please.  There is no need for that kind of talk.

 

The area has low incomes, low educational levels, low rates of homeownership, low rents, etc.--all bad news in terms of what retailers and real estate developers are looking for.  You can try to turn it into a racial issue as your post seems to do, but the criteria that attract private investment just aren't there.

Edited June 1, 2013 by mallguy

[Urbanity]

Urbanity, your response was totally fine- no worries at all- and I respect your position.

 

Thanks!

 

Re - the current conversation abot East Charlotte demographics and such.  I see both sides of the coin.  Mallguy is correct that the bottom line for retailers is profitability and regardless of the demographic make-up - that stretch of Central and general area is not a good area for major retail as of now.

 

That said - people rightfully will see the longer term and underlying racial issues for an area of the city (much like the West) that seems to be forgotten to most when it comes to city investment as opposed to other areas like the South or far North of the city.

 

I do agree that mall purchase and demolishing is a huge and costly gamble for the city  - one which many people have a right to question - just in my case I agree with the city that this is a gamble worth taking and I am hopeful that it will pay off sooner than leaving it up solely to market forces.

 

Anyway - here's to Charlotte - we may not always agree how to get to the future, but I think all on this board agree that it's one worth arguing about and fighting for!

[mallguy]

I do note that government bought Freedom Mall.  I wasn't thrilled because it was still a functioning mall with an anchor and plenty of stores inside and I hate losing a mall, but I don't recall hearing much if any criticism, since government redeveloped the site and immediately started using it for office space, perhaps more cheaply than it could have done elsewhere.

[southslider]

... the criteria that attract private investment just aren't there.

 

That is exactly my point.  The area is perceived as lacking investment, when there are numerous small businesses owned by immigrants.  It's not about race, but Charlotte biases linked to economic class and political clout.  Greeks and Jews started businesses years ago on Central Avenue.  Now, it's predominantly Asians and Latinos.

[mallguy]

Again- please don't turn this into a racial discussion.  Despite saying "t's not about race", that's what you're doing. Let's keep this discussion on a higher ground.

 

I am a real estate investor (not as my career, but on the side) and I care about dollars and cents from an investment.  So would most any reputable investor.  The Eastland area lacks that.  Regardless of ethnicity, there isn't enough disposable income there to attract large-scale private-sector investment. 

Edited June 1, 2013 by mallguy

[Norm2]

Urbanity, your response was totally fine- no worries at all- and I respect your position.

 

I just see little going for the Eastland site, other than it being 90 or so acres of now-developable land.

 

Studies and government focus on Eastland started in the early- to mid-2000s, when development was booming and Eastland was clearly on its way down but still had some life and could have been repurposed.  There were no takers on a redevelopment then, when times were better.  Similarly, its former owner, Glimcher, bought the property in the 1990s and did nothing with it, even though surely it would have invested something if there were a hope of a positive return.  It didn't.

 

If redevelopment didn't happen years ago, when talk of redevelopment was ripe but nothing happened, then I don't see anything happening with the site in the near future.

 

Downsides:

* Terrible demographics, with high poverty rates in the area and stagnant, if not shrinking, household incomes

* Poor accessibility, not near a major highway and requiring driving through multiple back streets to get there from Independence Boulevard

* Little complementary development nearby (there are multiple derelict office buildings and shopping centers nearby, indicating plenty of other sites for prospective users, and not enough demand)

* No likely users (multiple suggested buyers and plans have fallen through, and even Walmart and Target have stores that are close enough that they wouldn't locate there, and typical government uses are all in or near uptown)

* I assume that zoning excludes industrial uses, which eliminates one typical user of land in similar areas, but there are no rail or highway links nearby anyhow

 

Upsides:

* 90 acres of land

 

The only thing that I can see going on the Eastland site is middle-income to low-income housing.  If Eastland were next to uptown or a nicer area, then there would be hope, but I see none.

In my opinion, what goes up must eventually come down, and what comes down must eventually go back up. Trendy neighborhoods come and go, and come back again. It takes many decades though. Sure, Eastland may not be a wise investment right now. Thats why no one is interested in it. I would rather have the city own it and tear it down than for a private developer to let the mall sit there and rot. The Eastland area was popular when it was new, but now that the suburbs have pushed out and the inner city neighborhoods are gentrifying, the poor and low income are pushed out of the inner ring neighborhoods and into the middle ring neighborhoods like Eastland. It is a national trend in most cities right now. I am sure in another 30 years Eastland may be a popular area again.