Eastland Mall Redevelopment

[J-Rob]

Can someone help me connect dots? I thought the city was already done dealing with Eastland. Is for the segment Charlotte FC abandoned?

[QCxpat]

10 minutes ago, J-Rob said:

Can someone help me connect dots? I thought the city was already done dealing with Eastland. Is for the segment Charlotte FC abandoned?

Yes.  Today's  CBJ  news story says:  "Major League Soccer team Charlotte FC flirted for several years with building its headquarters and training site on 20 acres of the Eastland site, but notified the city and Crosland Southeast (the master developer) two weeks before the groundbreaking that they had opted for Levine Properties’ McAlpines Center for their headquarters."

[KJHburg]

My thoughts are these proposals are way too much public dollars for someone else's dream,

""Their proposal seeks $45 million in public funding, Christian said, with the nonprofit entity formed by the project leaders, Carolina Serves, raising the balance."" concerning the tennis facility.

Why not a county owned park with fields and open space?  I think these massive sports facilities there will be somewhat exclusive.

This reminds me of the proposal on this very site for a movie studio that taxpayers were basically asked to pay 70% of the total cost or so.   And I am not anti tennis but something that benefits the entire area like a park with soccer fields and open space playground and space for the open air market.  

Give me $45 Million and I can build a tiny home village and housing for the homeless there.  

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by KJHburg

[kayman]

7 hours ago, KJHburg said:

My thoughts are these proposals are way too much public dollars for someone else's dream,

""Their proposal seeks $45 million in public funding, Christian said, with the nonprofit entity formed by the project leaders, Carolina Serves, raising the balance."" concerning the tennis facility.

Why not a county owned park with fields and open space?  I think these massive sports facilities there will be somewhat exclusive.

This reminds me of the proposal on this very site for a movie studio that taxpayers were basically asked to pay 70% of the total cost or so.   And I am not anti tennis but something that benefits the entire area like a park with soccer fields and open space playground and space for the open air market.  

Give me $45 Million and I can build a tiny home village and housing for the homeless there.  

 

Huh? Considering there's a proposed swimming and aquatic center in one of the proposals that is as much a community benefit as more passive green space. Black and brown populations in East Charlotte need more access to more public swimming and recreational activities facilities as much as other more whiter parts of town.  Especially swimming, considering how few black and brown people know how to swim due lack of access to public pools to decades of Jim Crow segregation closing public swimming pools to them.  Swimming is an essential life skill for everyone, but especially those with more meager means less likely able to pay for expensive private swimming lessons or access to a private pool. 

In other words, having public swimming & aquatic facilities in a mostly non-white area to be used year-round is very much worth spending $45M in public financing.

Edited December 10, 2022 by kayman

[Third Strike]

Can’t see the rest of the article because of a paywall. What’s the third proposal for this site? I completely agree with @kaymanabout the aquatic center, though I do like the tennis court proposal, especially for pickleball. Really wish we someone would consider bringing back a skate park to the site, especially after losing the community-built one. 

[KJHburg]

The article did not mention a proposal for an aquatic center.  It only mentioned a $55 M tennis facility of which $45 M is the ask from the public.  My point is that is should be tailored to the local neighborhoods and what is missing in that area in terms of recreation.   A county owned pool rec facility if needed in that area would be great and used by far more than a tennis facility.  But the article ONLY mentioned the tennis proposal.  That is what I was speaking about.  

[CLT2014]

Is this a public investment for a public / free tennis park that would be part of the Parks and Rec Department OR is it a public investment in a private tennis club that charges membership dues?

[KJHburg]

2 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

Is this a public investment for a public / free tennis park that would be part of the Parks and Rec Department OR is it a public investment in a private tennis club that charges membership dues?

that I could not determine from the article.  

[kayman]

14 hours ago, KJHburg said:

The article did not mention a proposal for an aquatic center.  It only mentioned a $55 M tennis facility of which $45 M is the ask from the public.  My point is that is should be tailored to the local neighborhoods and what is missing in that area in terms of recreation.   A county owned pool rec facility if needed in that area would be great and used by far more than a tennis facility.  But the article ONLY mentioned the tennis proposal.  That is what I was speaking about.  

A public aquatic, tennis, or any recreational sports facility would be for the local neighborhood.  It is needed for East Charlotte. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by kayman

[PuppiesandKittens]

On 12/10/2022 at 12:18 AM, kayman said:

Huh? Considering there's a proposed swimming and aquatic center in one of the proposals that is as much a community benefit as more passive green space. Black and brown populations in East Charlotte need more access to more public swimming and recreational activities facilities as much as other more whiter parts of town.  Especially swimming, considering how few black and brown people know how to swim due lack of access to public pools to decades of Jim Crow segregation closing public swimming pools to them.  Swimming is an essential life skill for everyone, but especially those with more meager means less likely able to pay for expensive private swimming lessons or access to a private pool. 

In other words, having public swimming & aquatic facilities in a mostly non-white area to be used year-round is very much worth spending $45M in public financing.

I’d rather directly give $45 million in cash to Black and Hispanic populations in east Charlotte than use it to subsidize a developer’s business.

Using public funds wisely can do a lot more good for everyone than subsidizing businesses that should, if they are viable businesses, be able to stand on their own.

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

I’d rather directly give $45 million in cash to Black and Hispanic populations in east Charlotte than use it to subsidize a developer’s business.

Using public funds wisely can do a lot more good for everyone than subsidizing businesses that should, if they are viable businesses, be able to stand on their own.

Plenty of interest groups in that part of Charlotte have asked for a recreational, civic asset versus cash in hand.  Plenty there also see the catalytic value of a destination, recreational space. 

[lit]

Was the old building so bad that it couldn't have been re-purposed? I've seen in other places where they've converted indoor malls to apartments. How much does the City have wrapped up in the purchase and demolition up to this point?  Imagine the old building with micro-apartments upstairs and shops/restaurants downstairs. They probably could have used the surrounding parking lots to build additional stuff since it's such a huge site

[PuppiesandKittens]

7 hours ago, RANYC said:

Plenty of interest groups in that part of Charlotte have asked for a recreational, civic asset versus cash in hand.  Plenty there also see the catalytic value of a destination, recreational space. 

Then after Black and Hispanic populations receive $45 million in cash, individuals can decide to invest in the entity that will operate the recreational space.  Will they receive equity in it?

[RANYC]

3 hours ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

Then after Black and Hispanic populations receive $45 million in cash, individuals can decide to invest in the entity that will operate the recreational space.  Will they receive equity in it?

What are you talking about?  Surely you’re not suggesting the city identify Black & Hispanic residents of the east side, and then structure the project as an equity investment with equity grants given to (not purchased by) just those residents identifying as those ethnic groups?

[PuppiesandKittens]

10 hours ago, RANYC said:

What are you talking about?  Surely you’re not suggesting the city identify Black & Hispanic residents of the east side, and then structure the project as an equity investment with equity grants given to (not purchased by) just those residents identifying as those ethnic groups?

I’m suggesting that a direct subsidy to a developer or interest group will lead to money being used less efficiently than if individuals received it and spent it for things that they needed.  Give money back to individuals, instead of to a developer or other business.  Maybe a property tax rebate for selected areas or something. 

Edited December 14, 2022 by PuppiesandKittens

[Reverie39]

16 hours ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

I’m suggesting that a direct subsidy to a developer or interest group will lead to money being used less efficiently than if individuals received it and spent it for things that they needed.  Give money back to individuals, instead of to a developer or other business.  Maybe a property tax rebate for selected areas or something. 

I have to think that the tragedy of the commons would come into play if we handed individuals money.

[ertley]

On 12/12/2022 at 11:27 PM, lit said:

Was the old building so bad that it couldn't have been re-purposed? I've seen in other places where they've converted indoor malls to apartments. How much does the City have wrapped up in the purchase and demolition up to this point?  Imagine the old building with micro-apartments upstairs and shops/restaurants downstairs. They probably could have used the surrounding parking lots to build additional stuff since it's such a huge site

I have always thought, in cities that have one and/or could justify one, the ideal conversion for old shopping malls is to art museums. You've got a building built to accommodate thousands of people, looking en mass, often leisurely, at objects...Each individual store would be simply used, with little expenditure, to specific galleries, and the anchor stores would provide larger space for the same, but also event or large space venues. The atria or actual mall portion could display larger (taller) pieces or mobiles....

[KJHburg]

here is a story about the Eastland recreation proposals and a Target (?) 

https://charlotteledger.substack.com/p/choice-at-eastland-tennis-swimming-320

when we talk about problems with Northlake I do not want to see that mall see this same fate.  It has been 10 years now since the mall closed and only a few things have been started. 

from the Ledger this morning:

""A City Council committee is expected to hear details Monday of three proposals submitted for the old Eastland Mall site — including one that envisions a Target on the property.

With the land cleared to make way for the residential first phase of the project, the city and developer Crosland Southeast have been working to identify projects for a future phase — the one that originally was going to be a practice facility for Charlotte FC.

Dodson declined to provide the details ahead of Monday’s meeting. But residents on the city’s eastside and other city sources confirmed that the three projects under consideration are believed to be proposals for a tennis complex, a swimming complex and a Target.

Pros and cons: The tennis and swimming proposals would seem to be more in line with the previously announced vision for the site, which was to have a recreational facility that could be a regional tourism draw with youth tournaments. But each of those proposals would require taxpayer money and would require coordination and probably fundraising — which makes them more tentative than a single deep-pocketed company building a store.

The Target proposal potentially has the advantage of costing the city nothing or very little. ""    from the Charlotte Ledger.

I still think the swimming proposal makes the most sense way too much public money for the tennis center. 

[JRCLT]

here is a story about the Eastland recreation proposals and a Target (?) 
https://charlotteledger.substack.com/p/choice-at-eastland-tennis-swimming-320
when we talk about problems with Northlake I do not want to see that mall see this same fate.  It has been 10 years now since the mall closed and only a few things have been started. 
from the Ledger this morning:
""A City Council committee is expected to hear details Monday of three proposals submitted for the old Eastland Mall site — including one that envisions a Target on the property.
With the land cleared to make way for the residential first phase of the project, the city and developer Crosland Southeast have been working to identify projects for a future phase — the one that originally was going to be a practice facility for Charlotte FC.
Dodson declined to provide the details ahead of Monday’s meeting. But residents on the city’s eastside and other city sources confirmed that the three projects under consideration are believed to be proposals for a tennis complex, a swimming complex and a Target.
Pros and cons: The tennis and swimming proposals would seem to be more in line with the previously announced vision for the site, which was to have a recreational facility that could be a regional tourism draw with youth tournaments. But each of those proposals would require taxpayer money and would require coordination and probably fundraising — which makes them more tentative than a single deep-pocketed company building a store.
The Target proposal potentially has the advantage of costing the city nothing or very little. ""    from the Charlotte Ledger.
I still think the swimming proposal makes the most sense way too much public money for the tennis center. 

Pools are…kinda gross when you look at it from a water/environmental perspective. The case of legislation not catching up with not only technology, but science itself. The data is astounding on how well filters and pool chemistry work to keep the pools safe. Personally I’ve stopped trying to go to public pools lol. The target is an interesting proposal though I’m guessing two for one wouldn’t work here, Recreational and retail? Spacing issue?

[Third Strike]

Slides on the three Eastland proposals:

 

[KJHburg]

Actually my vote would be for a Target (so the city make some money on the land sale) and the aquatic center.  Both sports complexes involve lots of public money not sure where that is going to come from since the school board wants a $3 Billion or so bond issue.  

[Desert Power]

I'm team Target here. Someone who actually wants to buy the land?

Could see the use of the aquatic center too, considering the city only has two public pools and the Aquatic Center downtown seems to do well/be busy. Price could be worth it.

Not sure that giant racquet facility is a good idea.

[lit]

At this rate, I feel like we're eventually going to circle back around and someone with a bunch of money will be like "this would be the perfect spot for a Mall"

[CharlotteWkndBuzz]

On 3/6/2023 at 9:31 PM, Desert Power said:

Not sure that giant racquet facility is a good idea.

Could this be their inspiration:

[Desert Power]

That makes it sound like the same consultants are going around to these cities...