First City in SC to build Mass Transit?

[Spartan]

Very true, but the problem is that you need density to make LRT work. The Upstate is so spread out that it would be difficult to have enough lines to service all of ther areas. The other problem with being so spread out is that our job centers are spread out.

Take Columbia- it has a very strong CBD and core area in general, so there is a strong inbound and outbound commuting pattern. With GSP, there is some pattern to it to be sure, but it isn't as stong as Cola. It seems like every road everywhere is just as crowded in both directions, particularly 85. DT Greenville is just not a major employment center on the same scale as Cola. The Upstate's base economy is industry/manufacturing, most of which are not central to any one particular area.

Don't misunderstand me though- I would love to have a rail system between Greenville and Spartanburg, or even just within Greenville itself. I think that it would encourage TOD and better development (less sprawly).

[waccamatt]

Obviously many of the folks living in Columbia don't have a clue how urbanized the Upstate is.  Sure the cities aren't as populated as other places in the nation, but the total population in the Upstate is over 1 million, making LRT almost a necessity.  I have to drive in this traffic everyday, so I know what that many people on the road means.   From everything I've seen and also heard from people living in Columbia (something they brag about), there isn't the same traffic problem, and definitely not as much sprawl.  This should make LRT less important there.  JMO!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, if you took the same number of counties the population would be about the same. Add Aiken, Sumter and Orangeburg Counties to Columbia's existing metro population and you're well over 1 million. Traffis isn't as bad because more people live in the central city and there are more freeways.

[gs3]

According to the Census, Columbia (city) is 125 square miles with a population of 116,000. Greenville (city) is only 26 square miles with a population of 56,000. So the land area of Greenville is one fifth the size of Columbia, yet has half the population.....by reason, that would definitely make Greenville's density higher.

Greenville county is the largest (population) in the state with 395,000. Richland has 330,000. Square miles are almost identical.....790 (GV) to 756 (Richland).

[The_sandlapper]

I would probablly look at the urbanized area population to get a fairer assesment of the density of both cities "proper". We are all familiar with SC's backward annexation laws, and know that these cities population (proper) really dont reflect there true size.

[Spartan]

Columbia also has Ft. Jackson within its city limies which adds something like 50 or 60 sq mi to its area. Maybe someone else knows the exact number. Don't be fooled by Columbia's seemingly low density though.

[motonenterprises]

The upstate will show how very strong it is growing in the next census. Things should change then on the density scale.

[goodbye]

All of this talk (quite biased really) does not negate the fact that Greenville's metro feels much larger than Columbia's, because it is. As we've already noted, it (the Upstate) is the center of business in the state, especially internationally built business.

[motonenterprises]

All of this talk (quite biased really) does not negate the fact that Greenville's metro feels much larger than Columbia's, because it is.  As we've already noted, it (the Upstate) is the center of business in the state, especially internationally built business.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You may have started something now.

[Spartan]

You may have started something now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed

I would argue quite the opposite. I have spent a fair amount of time in Greenville, and I have lived in Columbia for several years. To me, Columbia looks and feels like a larger city. Nothing in Greenville can quite compare to coming in on 126 and turning onto Assembly and seeing everythign from that perspective. Everything feels bigger there. Besides my feelings- Greenville's UA is about 100k smaller than Columbia's. Its something like 300,000 vs 420,000 respectively (I will check my numbers when I get back to my computer).

The Upstate is definatley the industrial powerhouse of the state, no question about that. Also, don't misunderstand my comments as anysort of attack on Greenville. Its a great city, and one that I will probably wind up living in in the next few years.

I think we may have had this discussion before....

[The_sandlapper]

It does seem like we have had this conversation before.

I lived in Greenville from 01-03 and in the time I lived there it never seemed as big, or even looked as big as Columbia just for comparisons, DT Cola larger than DT Gville, highways Columbia has more interstates with a beltway around the city, and of course in skylines there is no comparison:

This (Gville)

vs.

This (Cola)

[Spartan]

It does seem like we have had this conversation before.

Its ok though, because its a good conversation

I guess one comparison is traffic. Greenville has much worse traffic than Cola, particularly on 85 during rush hour- yikes. This is not to say that Cola doesn't have had traffic. It just seems as though there is a better flow here than in Gville.

[motonenterprises]

Columbia skyline might be bigger, but our downtown is prettier.

[UrbanSoutherner]

I think that there are only three realistic possibilities for light rail in SC in the next couple of decades. I could see Myrtle Beach developing a line up the beach to try and help with the huge traffic mess during the tourist season. That line would be developed only because of the tourism in that city. I could also see Charleston-North Charleston develop a line up the peninsula. That area is high density due to its historic development and linear due to its being on peninsula between the Ashley and Cooper. The Noisette development and Neck development projects would plug into any such light rail line. And as with Myrtle Beach, you have a major tourist component in Charleston that could help justify the line. Lastly, I could see a line extending off of Charlotte's coming system into its suburbs in York County and the Rock Hill area. I do not think Columbia is really built in a way that could make a light rail system feasible. Likewise, Greenville is not built in such a way. Greenville's budding employment centers are low-rise manufacturing/research complexes along the I-85 corridor--not exactly servicable by light rail. Plus, Greenville has a bus system that is far less utilized that either Columbia or Charleston's bus system (according to a Greenville News article a few months ago). I just do not see the state or federal governments supporting a light rail system when the bus system is so underdeveloped and underutilized. I really think tourism in Myrtle Beach or Charleston may be the only way to get a light rail system justified in a generally anti-transit state.

[Spartan]

Your post just made me realize how useful an LRT in Myrtle Beach could be. All of those tourists within an extremely narrow area makes for a practical system. You could easily have stops at the major shopping venues, attractions, and hotels. Since it is an LRT it could make those frequent stops easily. Interesting........

[The_sandlapper]

That's what I've been screaming about Myrtle Beach for a while. It's population density is pretty high given the amount of tourist in that narrow stretch of land. It would make perfect sense to establish some type of rail there at stops like DT Myrtle Beach, Coastal Grand Mall, Broadway at the Beach, Hard Rock Amusement Park ....etc, with ext. services down to Murrells Inlet in Georgetown County. And I definately think a commuter line from Rock Hill to Charlotte would be forseeable.

[Spartan]

That's what I've been screaming about Myrtle Beach for a while. It's population density is pretty high given the amount of tourist in that narrow stretch of land. It would make perfect sense to establish some type of rail there at stops like DT Myrtle Beach, Coastal Grand Mall, Broadway at the Beach, Hard Rock Amusement Park ....etc, with ext. services down to Murrells Inlet in Georgetown County. And I definately think a commuter line from Rock Hill to Charlotte would be forseeable.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know why I was so dense on that issue. That said, it would be a tourist oriented rail, and not locals (though locals could surely use it). I had always invisioned a thing to connect Conway or Socastee and inland areas (of which there aren't that many highly populated ones) to the coast.

Rock Hill will probably get funding for a line once Charlotte completes or is near to completing its South Line.

[Charleston native]

...The Noisette development and Neck development projects would plug into any such light rail line. And as with Myrtle Beach, you have a major tourist component in Charleston that could help justify the line. Lastly, I could see a line extending off of Charlotte's coming system into its suburbs in York County and the Rock Hill area. I do not think Columbia is really built in a way that could make a light rail system feasible...I really think tourism in Myrtle Beach or Charleston may be the only way to get a light rail system justified in a generally anti-transit state.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with that, absolutely. Myrtle Beach could really blossom with a light rail because of the narrow development along the strand. The only drawback is that you would still have many commuters from Socastee and Conway that go in to the beach. People there might want to have it in those cities...and that gets more complicated because of the Intracoastal Waterway and the wetlands that surround it.

IMO, my hometown would have more advantages such as a denser urban area, tourism, and better infrastructure. And you have it right: the Noisette and Neck projects will connect the 2 parts of Charleston like never before...light rail is already being planned from downtown, through these projects, to the airport.

[vicupstate]

Monorail company scales back plans

CHARLESTON, S.C. (AP) -- Futrex Inc. and the Charleston Area Regional Transportation Authority are asking the federal government for another chance to develop a monorail system.

Futrex came to the Charleston area 10 years ago with plans to build a light-rail system. While the plans drew some public money, very little private investment followed.

A $35 million prototype Futrex had proposed building between Charleston International Airport and the North Charleston Convention Center never was started. Instead of employing the anticipated 1,000 people at the former Navy Base, Futrex employs two.

Most of the $6.2 million appropriated for the project by Congress from 1998 through 2000 remains unspent, and because of accumulating interest, Futrex owes Charleston $1.7 million.

The company and CARTA submitted a plan to the Federal Transit Administration in December, seeking to use the unspent federal money to develop a less ambitious prototype that could prove the system works.

"We took our plans for this $35 million prototype, dusted them off, and asked ourselves if there was a good way to use these federal dollars," Futrex president Byron Waldman said.

The plan does not involve funding from CARTA or other local sources, said Howard Chapman, authority director.

"The issue is one of trying to get the project back on track," Chapman said. "If Futrex can make it work, there will be a market for the technology worldwide."

Monorails are common in Asia, but have been rarely used in the United States. Seattle and Las Vegas recently built conventional monorail systems serving small downtown areas.

Futrex's plan is to create a "monobeam" system, which is designed so that trains can travel at high speeds in both directions along a single raised guideway. Traditional monorails are more like railroads, travel going both ways means either having two sets of track, or taking turns with one.

Fairfax County, Va., concluded that "suspended-monobeam is an immature technology and is largely unproven in a long suburban corridor," when it looked at Futrex in 2001. Other cities also have looked, but no one has bought.

"It's very difficult to crack that market with a new and untested technology, and with good reason," Waldman said.

Waldman hopes a less expensive prototype, set up at the former Navy Base and costing about $15 million, would be more likely to attract investors.

The Federal Transit Administration would have to approve changes to the plan, however, because the money earmarked for Futrex by Congress stated that it was for development of a prototype serving the airport.

Waldman said Futrex has spent just $400,000 of the $6.2 million appropriated for the project in federal transportation budgets, leaving $5.8 million available, provided Futrex can raise matching funds.

"We don't have it lined up," he said. "We'll probably know in 90 to 120 days if we'll be successful attracting private financing."

The FTA is reviewing the proposed changes, according to spokeswoman Velvet Snow.

---

[goodbye]

That's very interesting. I wonder how long it would take to build one of these things?

[goodbye]

Another reason the Upstate needs to be seriously considered for LRT is because of the environmental issues which have been brought up lately. I think there are more than enough people here to support one, but it might take a major kick in the pants about this for one to be properly utilized.

[monsoon]

Thanks for the update. I did a thread here on UrbanPlanet on this company in late 2003 then it kinda just disappeared. There is a plan to build a commuter rail road North of Charlotte. One of the big issues are the several hundred grade crossings. Their technology would seem to easily solve this problem. I would love to see a full sized system installed somewhere in the Carolinas.

Anyway, here is the link to that article I posted.

SC & Ga Develop Advanced Monobeam Transit

[btoy]

Another reason the Upstate needs to be seriously considered for LRT is because of the environmental issues which have been brought up lately.  I think there are more than enough people here to support one, but it might take a major kick in the pants about this for one to be properly utilized.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am not saying that we don't have air quality issues in Greenville. But the meter with the alarming readings only had bad readings in the winter and it is in low in come neighborhood were people still burn coal and wood for heat. That is why they want to get the EPA to move it. I believe it is in a neighborhood near County Square.

[Spartan]

Wow, I didn't know Charleston already had money allocated from Congress. I hope that they can get the ball rolling on this one soon. Usually its getting the funding that holds up projects like this.

[Charleston native]

Wow, I didn't know Charleston already had money allocated from Congress. I hope that they can get the ball rolling on this one soon. Usually its getting the funding that holds up projects like this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh yeah, studies were already being done for the airport/convention center and the Noisette and Neck projects. I think if you're going to do an LRT, a monorail is the better option. They are sleeker and more modern looking, operate on electric power, and are easier to maintain.

By the way, here's the link for that article vicupstate did.

[bobliocatt]

I'd like to see this prototype line get started, but I wish they planned a route that would actually solve a little traffic congestion, or at least, connect to high destination points to each other.