First City in SC to build Mass Transit?

[Greenville]

No I don't think so at all. Light Rail does not serve sprawl. It's purpose is to allow transit "within" a city so that it can become more dense without having more traffic congestion. This is what Rock Hill is working on and it has nothing to do with Charlotte.

There is a seperate project to connect to Charlotte's system via Commuter Rail.

Now considering that LRT is meant for IN city transit, we have this from the US Census.

• Rock Hill - Population - 56,114, Population Growth (1990) +28%

• Greenville - Population - 55,926, Population Growth (1990) -4.5%

Given that LRT is meant for city transit, why would I want to entertain putting LRT in Greenville and not Rock Hill given those statistics? Rock Hill is larger and it is actually growing at a fantastic rate compared to Greenville's losing people.

Rock Hill is doing really well, and is a prime candidate for SC's first Light Rail System.

Please do not turn this into a peeing contest between Rock Hill and Greenville, because

1.) that is silly, and

2.) you would lose.

As I said, comparing Rock Hill and Greenville is like comparing apples and oranges. But I will play along anyway...

Going by your numbers, I would say that Greenville is light years ahead of Rock Hill. For a "city" of 55,926, and one that is "smaller" than Rock Hill, Greenville feels much more dense, progressive, and cosmopolitan. Anyone who visits the two cities will surely agree. Rock Hill has a long way to go, don't you think? And can't you find some data newer than 1990 to support your claim?

I assume that your previous post was a joke, so I will not continue with my response. The truth is that Rock Hill is a fine town, and I am not disagreeing with light rail being discussed there. I hope they get it. But you are kidding yourself if you think that isn't due to Charlotte's growth and sprawl.

[tablrock]

Please do not turn this into a peeing contest between Rock Hill and Greenville, because

1.) that is silly, and

2.) you would lose.

As I said, comparing Rock Hill and Greenville is like comparing apples and oranges. But I will play along anyway...

Going by your numbers, I would say that Greenville is light years ahead of Rock Hill. For a "city" of 55,926, and one that is "smaller" than Rock Hill, Greenville feels much more dense, progressive, and cosmopolitan. Anyone who visits the two cities will surely agree. Rock Hill has a long way to go, don't you think? And can't you find some data newer than 1990 to support your claim?

I assume that your previous post was a joke, so I will not continue with my response. The truth is that Rock Hill is a fine town, and I am not disagreeing with light rail being discussed there. I hope they get it. But you are kidding yourself if you think that isn't due to Charlotte's growth and sprawl.

good point greenville! the last sentence is so very true.

[monsoon]

1.) that is silly, and

2.) you would lose.

I have not seen where this is the case

You said this in response to the Federal Government funding Rock Hill's study on transit.

The only reason Rock Hill would get a light rail is to connect to Charlotte's. I don't think Rock Hill would need one otherwise.

As I have mentioned, but you seem to ignore, this is for a system within the city that will not connect to Charlotte. Rock Hill is moving forward with in city transit which is were Light Rail is to be used. At some other point they may build a commuter rail system to Charlotte but that is a much different project as it will involve the greater transit body, the MTA. The Light Rail project inside of Rock Hill is completely independent from that.

Now you have not provided any information as to why Rock Hill is not deserving of this. I applaude them for thinking proactively enough to begin planning for an in city transit system, putting together the committies to study, and to convince the Federal government to fund their studies (which they don't do if they are not realistic). When another city in South Carolina gets around to this point get back to me. But to accuse me of starting pissing contests is not warranted as I have done nothing but post the facts in this thread. If one of my facts is incorrect then please point it out and we can discuss it. Else you are only giving your opinion.

[teshadoh]

It is true that the trolley line is primarily being driven to supplemant a planned Textile Corridor project, a mixed use rehab / redev of abandoned textile mills. Additionally, it has been the city's interest for Winthrop students (near the textile redev site) to gain access to downtown as well as the strip retail / medical corridor along Ebenezer.

But - my main concern is how valid the need is now. Though I will concede, that most likely the trolley is intended as an economic catalyst for increased higher dense development - far denser than what the city currently has. Perhaps it's just my history that I have with my hometown, but knowing the area along Ebenezer - I am still curious how Rock Hill intends the area to develop that could support a small transit line. I've been more pessimistic in the past of this plan, & I still feel that this is a Charlotte related investment - as Rock Hill would never have grown beyond the size of Florence or Sumter without Charlotte being nearby. Quite likely though, it would not be requirred to need a light rail / commuter rail connection b/c realistically, any rail to RH from Charlotte would be a car oriented multimodal connection.

My greatest disagreement would be that I would suggest that this has more to do with political connections (John Spratt?) than a greater need than other SC cities. But if they can get the funding, I suppose you can't fault them.

[monsoon]

Rock Hill has grown to be the 4th largest city in the state, and it does not appear to be slowing down. I would say they are very justified in moving towards rail transit within the city.

[teshadoh]

Probably, but I think two critical questions for needing transit should be answered: what is the purpose of the transit line & how will people access it.

Meaning, that there are various transit line philosophy's, there are tourist oriented lines that serve attractions, neighborhood oriented lines that serve residential needs & services & lastly the more popular commuter oriented line that moves residents to business centers.

Secondly - are the service areas pedestrian oriented, are there enough population centers within a 15 minute walk from a stop, & are there places within 15 minutes from the stop anyone would want to go to.

The first question appears that this is intended to be a residential oriented line, b/c very few people living along this corridor works in downtown or around the hospital in Ebenezer. Then, who are the residents & where do they need to go? The vast majority appear to be campus residents of Winthrop, a few thousand by my guess. Otherwise there are a few hundred off of Main St near downtown, mostly in poverty. There are scattered subdivisions & residential complexes off of Ebenezer Rd to the north of Winthrop. But overwhelmingly, the line depends on Winthrop students.

Unless... the Textile Corridor is fully developed - there are transit lines that are built as economic incubators & I view that this line depends on the proposed development in order to succeed. Besides that the transit line doesn't go where college students want to go, besides downtown for what Rock Hill for 20+ years has been promoting as an entertainment zone. Ebenezer is home to mostly medical offices & some fast food chains, the grocery store (unless replaced - Village Square) has been vacant for a long time.

The answer to the last question - Ebenezer Rd is highly non-pedestrian oriented, as well as the shopping centers & office parks. Under future plans, Winthrop will be - as the west side has been neglected for decades. Downtown of course is partially pedestrian oriented, ignoring the mammoth Dave Lyle Blvd & parking lots.

Meaning - the transit line depends on a major overhaul of the entire corridor including extensive overhauling of Ebenezer Rd. Additionally, besides the textile corridor project, significant rewriting of the zoning codes are necessary - as most of the area is single family & low density commercial & retail. A few condo & apartment complexes exist - but this is a highly underutilized area.

This transit line, doesn't serve a purpose. If they can indicate what transit extensions would be included & are promoting a major redevelopment of that corridor - then we might be on to something. Perhaps if it went to the Rock Hill Galleria or along Cherry Rd, there could be a purpose for the line. But I'm not seeing it yet.

[teshadoh]

... and yes, my last post was over kill - I got carried away. Sorry folks.

[monsoon]

I am flabberghasted by people that don't think that Rock Hill should pursue these plans. Even the smallest town could benefit from more public transportation. When I was Japan even small mountain towns had train stations and public transit. It worked very well to keep automobiles off the street, prevent sprawl, and make a much more liveable and human oriented towns.

I applaude Rock Hill for trying. If other larger cities had done this in the past, they would not be having the trouble with sprawl they are having today.

[teshadoh]

It's not a matter of Rock Hill pursuing transit, but for what reason. Even as a transit supporter, I wouldn't want a transit line built that could jeopardize other transit plans, either from another city or possibly a BETTER transit plan for Rock Hill. I can understand RH is trying to benefit from an abandoned rail line, but why build a transit line if there isn't a need, or that a need can not be generated? I'm not positive Rock Hill residents are in support a major densification of the Ebenezer corridor - especially with the past memory of the historic homes of Ebenezer being torn down in the 70's & 80's.

Build a U shaped streetcar line along Cherry Rd down Oakland Ave supporting the college & then east along extensive rail / Dave Lyle Blvd ROW to the mall & shops. That would at least support population, commuting interests & shopping. But don't build something that could be used as leverage by anti-transit advocates as an example of wasteful transit funding.

Again - I want a transit line in Rock Hill & every large town, but this isn't the project to support.

[krazeeboi]

Before I cast judgment on this, I'll have to read up on the details. But I agree about Ebenezer; there isn't too much worth going out there for. But stops along Cherry, Dave Lyle, and possibly even Celanese would definitely make the project worthwhile.

[Greenville]

I am flabberghasted by people that don't think that Rock Hill should pursue these plans. Even the smallest town could benefit from more public transportation. When I was Japan even small mountain towns had train stations and public transit. It worked very well to keep automobiles off the street, prevent sprawl, and make a much more liveable and human oriented towns.

I applaude Rock Hill for trying. If other larger cities had done this in the past, they would not be having the trouble with sprawl they are having today.

You are right, even the smallest town could benefit from public transportation. The question for city leaders and residents, however, is "WILL Rock Hill benefit from public transportation?" A rail system is no good if people don't use it. And unfortunately, all we have right now are assumptions that people will or will not utilize light rail in Rock Hill. Light rail is not like the baseball field in the movie "Field of Dreams." If you build it, they will not necessarily come!

Light rail is sort of like a lot of government programs. On paper, they sound like great ideas. Unfortunately, life does not happen on paper, so the idea is to examine how practical it is for society as a whole (as well as how realistic it is). For Rock Hill to do this properly, they need some studies to see if people would ride light rail. If so, how much would the system cost? Would it involve taxpayers? How long would it be until the debt was paid? These are issues that must be examined before jumping too far ahead and doing something that might be a bad idea.

[monsoon]

Indeed. Since specifics have not been proposed yet, it is too early to pass judgement on what they are doing in Rock Hill so I am surprised that several here are hell bent on doing so anyway. The point of this is they are doing "something" at the official level and getting federal funding to proceed. This puts them far ahead of any other city in SC in that regard. The idea behind Light Rail is to improve density without the need for new automobiles. A city with Rock Hill's growth is certainly posed to take advantage of it.

To imply that nobody in Rock Hill will ride it is a bit premature if you ask me.

[distortedlogic]

I voted for Greenville, but of course I am biased. However, I think it may be Gville because of all of the developments going on between Clemson, Gville, Greer, and the Golden Strip. I think the purpose would be more to connect all of these areas that are relatively far apart, more than to neccesarily provide traffic relief. I think the public may later catch on to using it, especially if they don't have to pay. My close second choice would be Chas. based on all the sprawl from Mt Pleasant all the way to N Chas, and also on the fact that Chas has the Densest (and probably largest) DT in the state. Rock hill seems more unlikely to me because of the fact that it is more of a suburb than a principal municipality, and I think most of it's growth is through annexation and not a boom of new residents. But I do agree that any town of any size would do well to embrace mass transit.

[krazeeboi]

Rock Hill's growth is due to annexation AND true growth. The city is no more than 35 square miles. I think that the city is starting to see the results of previous annexations as more and more housing are beginning to be built on these tracts. Rock Hill is becoming more and more popular with those who don't necessarily want to live in Charlotte, but want relatively fast access, cheaper housing, good schools, and basic amenities nearby.

[Spartan]

No I don't think so at all. Light Rail does not serve sprawl. It's purpose is to allow transit "within" a city so that it can become more dense without having more traffic congestion. This is what Rock Hill is working on and it has nothing to do with Charlotte.

There is a seperate project to connect to Charlotte's system via Commuter Rail.

Now considering that LRT is meant for IN city transit, we have this from the US Census.

• Rock Hill - Population - 56,114, Population Growth (1990) +28%

• Greenville - Population - 55,926, Population Growth (1990) -4.5%

Given that LRT is meant for city transit, why would I want to entertain putting LRT in Greenville and not Rock Hill given those statistics? Rock Hill is larger and it is actually growing at a fantastic rate compared to Greenville's losing people.

Rock Hill is doing really well, and is a prime candidate for SC's first Light Rail System.

The study may be for light rail, but I think commuter rail makes much more sense for Rock Hill. Light rail would require much higher densities.

Rock Hill is not necessarily a better candidate than Greenville because of its size. Greenville, as we all know, is the center of a much larger area than Rock Hill. Just consider that those facts were for the city and not county populations. Rock Hill is on the fast track to become the largest suburb of Charlotte (a much larger city than Greenville). Greenville is also a much denser place, and though it is not expanding, Rock Hill is annexing like mad to get those suburban areas under its belt. Given those facts, it is not right to assume that Rock Hill city's higher population means anything regarding the size of the built up area around it. Light rail for RH would not make sense at all because I don't think it has the densities (or demand) to support it. A commuter rail connection to Charlotte would make lots of sense.

[monsoon]

I would respectfully disagree that Rock Hill is just a suburb of Charlotte. Sure people commute from Rock Hill to Charlotte, but Rock Hill has it's own independant industry, a historic downtown, a significant state supported University of over 7000 students, a fairly sizeable hospital and associated medical industry, and everything that is normally associated city and not suburb.

35 years ago when I-77 did not connect Charlotte to Rock Hill, and Charlotte was a much smaller place, Rock Hill was considered by everyone in SC to be Rock Hill and not part of NC. It was SC's 5th largest city even back then.

[Spartan]

I did not mean to imply that Rock Hill was not its own place. I simply meant that it is not at the level of Greenville, and that growth based on city limits is not an accurate comparison for these two cities.

[goodbye]

I did not mean to imply that Rock Hill was not its own place. I simply meant that it is not at the level of Greenville, and that growth based on city limits is not an accurate comparison for these two cities.

I completely agree, and anyone who thinks otherwise is ignorant of the facts.

[monsoon]

I did not mean to imply that Rock Hill was not its own place. I simply meant that it is not at the level of Greenville, and that growth based on city limits is not an accurate comparison for these two cities.

Very true, but that is not the subject of this thread. The subject is where is the most likely place in South Carolina to build mass transit. In that case in city population is very important as that is the most likely place where it makes sense to build a light rail line. Rock Hill in having a fairly significant portion of its population actually living within the city, and that population is growing in its city makes it a prime candidate for a light rail line. Based on that I would say that in terms of being ready for light rail, Rock Hill is already far ahead of Greenville. Greenville needs to focus its growth in a more sustainable manner or it risks becoming another Atlanta. (on a smaller scale)

[g-man430]

GREENVILLE, SC BABY!!!!

-Due to being right between Charlotte in Atlanta in the 2nd largest automotive hub of this country, and soon to be the first with Ford and GM going down the drain.

[Spartan]

Very true, but that is not the subject of this thread. The subject is where is the most likely place in South Carolina to build mass transit. In that case in city population is very important as that is the most likely place where it makes sense to build a light rail line. Rock Hill in having a fairly significant portion of its population actually living within the city, and that population is growing in its city makes it a prime candidate for a light rail line. Based on that I would say that in terms of being ready for light rail, Rock Hill is already far ahead of Greenville. Greenville needs to focus its growth in a more sustainable manner or it risks becoming another Atlanta. (on a smaller scale)

Yeah, but pretty much everywhere is ahead of Greenville in that regard. I also think that it is important to point out that Rock Hill won't have its own rail system separate from Charlotte, but it will have one as an extension of Charlotte's. There is a difference between the two.

[monsoon]

Yeah, but pretty much everywhere is ahead of Greenville in that regard. I also think that it is important to point out that Rock Hill won't have its own rail system separate from Charlotte, but it will have one as an extension of Charlotte's. There is a difference between the two.

As I mentioned above, there are two rail systems for Rock Hill. One is is a true Light Rail system within the city. It may or may not be connected to the Charlotte system. In any case it is a local system and not part of the greater MTA, or CATS.

Independent from that is another plan to run commuter rail to Charlotte. That would be part of the Charlotte system. It may or may not be built. It's currently not in the 2025 plan.

It's the first system that we are talking about.

[Spartan]

Oh, so the Federal study is for just the Rock Hill only portion then? Not the connection to Charlotte?

[g-man430]

If anybody ever said Greenville didn't have a plan for future LRT they would be dead wrong.

Greenville's future Multi-Modal-Center:

[Spartan]

I really dont know what to make of that. I am assuming that is over 85? I don't think anyone said that Greenville doesn't have LRT in their plan. If they did, I am certain its just ignorance.