Charlotte's Outerbelt / Outerloop

[dubone]

that may be so. i haven't been down that way in two or three years, but i didn't remember it being prohibitive. Even 30 feet is enought for two more 10' lanes.

I know they are a few years old, but after glancing again at the google sat photos of that, it really seems like they can find a way to add another two lane, and if the few cases where stuff is close on both sides, either encroach just 10' per side, or just buy a couple homes. They were not so smart to buy/build so close to a 2 lane "highway" in such a heavily travelled area by a mall and congested freeway.

The bottom line for me is, with such intense uses allowed over time by both charlotte and pineville around there, it is absurd for the only surface road alternative to a congested freeway to be just 2 lanes. They need something more major to connect two large parkways (c.place and ballantyne).

[dubone]

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/11840538.htm

An interesting option for for 485 is for the city to loan the state the money.

I am really skeptical as to whether this is a good thing. I am also shocked that the southern widening is just the smaller dollar figure, which i think only adds one lane, which will be no where near solving anything.

honestly, i just want 485 to be done, so that our transport money can worry about our point to point freeways, and actual road needs.

It is shocking to me that out of 3.5 billion in needs through 2030, only $1.5 billion has any hope of being funded. what in the world is NC going to fix this problem.

[Sabaidee]

Southern leg of I-485 has bad NCDOT planning all over it, the right of way for it can only be widen for the total of 3 lanes in each direction. The median isn't wide enough to add 2 lanes in each direction, without rebuilding the bridges and overpasses, and to think these overpasses are only 15 years olds. NCDOT didn't even think of the need to future expansion of this freeway.

[dubone]

it is always money not planning.

NCDOT's operating model is build as little now as possible because we don't have the money, but in 30 years we'll have more money to rebuild it...

Even now, the 85 widening between 485 and speedway blvd is "temporary". temporary freeway is a crazy idea... but they just don't have money for stuff, so they quickly cut corners and push as much as possible to the future. As a result, we have lots and lots of needs for the "future" and still no money to pay for it.

It is not the engineers... it is lack money.

charlotte and surroundings are in quite a pickle. we need the roads, think the politicians should rewrite the funding laws, but can do nothing but throw our own money at it... which just causes more double-taxation, and no changes to the law.

[nyxmike]

How is it temporary? It is 4 lanes on each side - does it still back up?

[dubone]

How is it temporary? It is 4 lanes on each side - does it still back up?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

it is only 3 lanes going north between 485 and speedway. capacity is fine... but the fact that they built it 3 knowing they'd have to tear it to expand to 4 when they build the next section in cabarrus is just nuts to me. they literally explained that it was temporary, just as the new multi-million dollar 77 3rd lane to gilead.

[Sabaidee]

But dubone, I-485 started from stratch, it was vast open land and yet they made the right of way to fit only 6 lanes, I don't understand why they didn't make the right of way wider. I understand about I-85, the widening of I-85 won't start until 2008 or so (forgot the year, but it's in the TIP) and it will connect with the 8 lane section in Charlotte to Rowan County 8 lanes section.

[dubone]

i think two lanes (per direction) will fit under the overpasses, though, on 485. at least one and a half lanes (per direction) will fit in the median, and they can be creative by the shoulder to get the extra half lane.

still, even now, the "plans" only call for one new lane per direction.... but that is because they can't scrape up enough money.

[Sabaidee]

Well a city engineer was asked by Diane Whitarce and he said he wasn't sure if there would be enough room under the overpasses for 4 lanes in each direction.

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/new...ic/11793603.htm

The older part of I-485 do tend to be narrower, however I hope they can figure a way out.

[dubone]

oh, i didn't see that when i read that article. that stinks. THAT would be bad planning, although sometimes they make those things work simply by shaving a foot or so off the lane widths. if 77 between 85 and 277 can have such skinny lanes, 485 can deal with it, too.

[dubone]

in many of these corridors, where widening is an eventual certainty, like 77 in the southern part of charlotte... i don't know why they don't just replace a bridge/overpass every couple years. it seems like it would save time and money and complexity when they even have the money for the widening.

[UrbanLifter]

oh, i didn't see that when i read that article.  that stinks.  THAT would be bad planning, although sometimes they make those things work simply by shaving a foot or so off the lane widths.  if 77 between 85 and 277 can have such skinny lanes, 485 can deal with it, too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True, the Southern Outerbelt was poorly planned from the start. I do believe it was planned to handle 4 lanes in each direction. Its typical of NC DOT to add as little as they can and then come back and do more later. Money has always been an issue not to mention politics as well. Eastern and rural interests have often times dominated good sense over smart planning and design. Gov Martin, in order to jump start the OuterBelt for Charlotte had to first promise to extend I-40 to Wilmington.

Sad that the third lane will have to wait until 2012 and then only from I 77 to Johnston Rd.

[monsoon]

True, the Southern Outerbelt was poorly planned from the start.  I do believe it was planned to handle 4 lanes in each direction.  Its typical of NC DOT to add as little as they can and then come back and do more later.  Money has always been an issue not to mention politics as well.  Eastern and rural interests have often times dominated good sense over smart planning and design.  Gov Martin, in order to jump start the OuterBelt for Charlotte had to first promise to extend I-40 to Wilmington.

Sad that the third lane will have to wait until 2012 and then only from I 77 to Johnston Rd.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually the debacle on this portion of the highway is the fault of Charlotte and Mecklenburg. They told the NCDOT that development would not be allowed in this section of the county so the NCDOT designed a road for the level of traffic that should have been present if the local govts had kept that promise. However Pineville, Charlotte, and Mecklenburg caved in to the developers (especially the Harris family) and allow unchecked sprawl in the area betweent the time the road was approved and funded and the time when it was actually completed. Today's mess is the result.

[nyxmike]

I can't believe they rejected the bill and setback I-485... it's ridiculous. Traffic is going to suck in the next 10 years.

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/11896896.htm

[DigitalSky]

yeah such ridiculousness...

[dubone]

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/new...ws/11906201.htm

The speaker is working on a compromise to allow both 485 sections, but it doesn't say what that may be... interesting.

The more i think about, the more i'm convinced that any solutions for these roads will simply rob us of some other important road project. In my mind, there is no solution beyond a major revision of the funding formula, or some sort of local supplemental gas tax or other revenue source.

They are so focused on this one small issue, but are ignoring the root problem that will create hundreds more of these same issues. They are ignoring that only half of this region's road needs are even funded at all over the 30 years. They are just shifting from a Peter-Paul debate to rob Matthew or Mark. argh... politicians...argh.

[ChiefJoJo]

This is all very unfortunate--politics at it's worst. The Meck-Union MPO (the regional trans planning body) went through the formal process in the May meetings to work out this issue technically and on the policy board (Pat Mumford, chair) that would be the best compromise given the situation we have. In my view, Saunders is simply undermining the entire process by going the legislative route to trump the DOT's and MPO's authority to direct hwy funds.

This only weakens Charlotte's position in transportation funding, as it shows the local divisions between the city council and the state delegation. Charlotte needs to get it's act together and be able to present a unified front in state transportation affairs. Otherwise, there will never be much of a chance to get funding formulas changed.

[Miesian Corners]

This is all very unfortunate--politics at it's worst.  The Meck-Union MPO (the regional trans planning body) went through the formal process in the May meetings to work out this issue technically and on the policy board (Pat Mumford, chair) that would be the best compromise given the situation we have.  In my view, Saunders is simply undermining the entire process by going the legislative route to trump the DOT's and MPO's authority to direct hwy funds.

This only weakens Charlotte's position in transportation funding, as it shows the local divisions between the city council and the state delegation.  Charlotte needs to get it's act together and be able to present a unified front in state transportation affairs.  Otherwise, there will never be much of a chance to get funding formulas changed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or we could just pick up the city and move it to Eastern North Carolina and get whatever we want.

[dubone]

Or we could just pick up the city and move it to Eastern North Carolina and get whatever we want.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

lol. nc politics has shifted east as it is. with easley following hunt, both eastern governors, it is the first time in something like a century where the governor's office didn't flip between east and west. vinroot would have kept that balance going.

As far as jojo's comments, i agree...the divisions will really hurt us. I wrote all my local and state reps yesterday of my opinion that they should use this issue to fight for more total funding, rather than just trying to figure out this issue. They aren't even going to come close to meeting the needs of 485 in the south with the widening they are talking about. The infrastructure really needs upgrading for this city to continue to be such a large economic driver for the state.

[hinsp0]

Too bad Charlotte/Meck County can't just join SC - then we'd get some money for infrastructure. Until then, the NC assembly will surely spend billions more on genious East NC pork projects such as Global Transpark outside of Kinston (and surely Fayetteville needs a beltway more than Charlotte needs a completed 485). Gotta love how Charlotte and other NC urban areas subsidize development of Eastern NC... And god forbid that the NC Dot ever learns the value of foresight and plans an urban highway that actually handles its real (not predicted) traffic volume.

[Raintree21]

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/new...ws/11906201.htm

The speaker is working on a compromise to allow both 485 sections, but it doesn't say what that may be...  interesting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

N.C. House passes bill to delay widening of 485 south

Apparently the compromise didn't work. The House voted last night to delay the southern leg widening until ALL of 485 is completed.

[monsoon]

N.C. House passes bill to delay widening of 485 south

Apparently the compromise didn't work. The House voted last night to delay the southern leg widening until ALL of 485 is completed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well it wasn't a compromise. The Charlotte City Council tried again to circumvent the MPOs long term plans and shove this new plan down everyone's throats. Thankfully they lost again as they did on the money for Independence that will instead be put to more useful purposes.

Its interesting the towns in the North are able to consistantly beat Charlotte in the NC Legislature. If the city would be willing to negotiate some with their neighbors they would not get beat down like this.

[Sabaidee]

The main people who were pushing this was Mayor McCrory and Patrick Mumford while Susan Burgess and Gregory Phipps was in favor of the Northeast leg. Even from the begining the City Council was split on it, but due to the timing, there wasn't enough timetable to further the debate because the MUMPO meeting was a week later. The widening didn't happen because the General Assembly has the final say, and even the Charlotte members on the House voted against the widening and when it goes to the State Senate, Malcolm Graham, a former Democratic City Councilman represents the University area of Mecklenburg and he is against the widening of the South. Mecklenburg only has 5 State Senate and 10 State House Representatives. Out of the 10 Representatives, 7 represent Charlotte and House Speaker Jim Black does not vote on any legislation as it's a traditional for any House of Representative body for its Speaker not to vote unless there's the need for a tie.

[monsoon]

Indeed. McCrory has shown an amazing talent for getting the NC Legislature, includeing the local ones, to vote against him.

[ChiefJoJo]

Well it wasn't a compromise.  The Charlotte City Council tried again to circumvent the MPOs long term plans and shove this new plan down everyone's throats.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How can the council circumvent the MPO's plans? Mumford, a council member, is the MPO chair, and represents Charlotte on the MPO board with Clt's 16 votes out of 37 total. The MPO voted fairly overwelmingly in May to delay the north by one year in favor of adding the south widening to the TIP. The MPO's staff agreed on this plan and recommended it as it was the best compromise.