Charlotte's Outerbelt / Outerloop

[ChiefJoJo]

yeah, i questioned it a few pages back, too . that is just silly if they scrap an extra travel line simply for width of a shoulder under a bridge. for crying out loud you have to hold your breath to stay in your lane on 77 between 85 and 277... surely they can make a compromise on 485, too.

It is a little irritating that an ncdot rule like that basically requires that they tear down bridges to get the extra lanes, and then of course there is no money for it... this might be the real reason we can't afford to build what we need. I'm also sure this traces back to SUVs... (not that i want to restart that whole discussion), but it would be interesting know why this rule exists (jojo?).

It's a federal issue as much as state... there are design guidelines that prohibit certain things from being done. We are talking about nation-wide standards here, so it's not really an "NCDOT rule." NCDOT and the feds could sign off on a "design exception" which they could very well do, but there are safety and legal implications of do so--lawsuits and such could result, and often do. (I suppose that's what we must live with in a litigous society) Believe me, there's a lot of info/data/considerations that goes into these decisions.

I think it was monsoon that noted before, Clt-Meck planners are not absolved of responsibility for this as they (I think) made certain committments on limiting growth in the area, but didn't hold up there end of the bargain, and now we have a mess on 485.

[Sabaidee]

I wonder how SCDOT did it? They made I-77 in Rock Hill with no median shoulder and it was design-build. I'd be scared if my car broke down for whatever reason and I'm in the fast lane and there's no shoulder.

[dubone]

thanks jojo.

interstate standards just seem to be more an more stringent. it is a striking difference to ride on old interstates or freeways from the waaay-olden days like biz40 thru W-S or the Pennsylvania Turnpike. While i reallize the safety benefits of the modern freeways, the cost is just through the roof. the right of way used by the PA turnpike is a sliver compared to new freeways. It just seems like urban freeways should simply be designed to a 55mph standard, and pack a bunch of extra lanes into them... Especially when drivers go 15mph on them during peak use. In that way we have the capacity, and darwinism can weed out speeders... um, sorry.

i agree that the whole reason for the traffic is poor planning on local leader's side, too. i think it is less (although, not much) an issue of how much of south meck was developed, but that there are virtually no surface road alternatives. the only non-485 option from ballantyne to 77 is the dinky 2 lane "highway" through pineville. If there were alternates or shortcuts, then it wouldn't be a big deal if there was a lot of development or not because then people could avoid the freeway when it is congested.

Anyway, these comments may be moot... it is entirely possible that they review it in the next few years and decide to ask for a design exception. It sounds like that is part of the review process.

[ChiefJoJo]

it is a striking difference to ride on old interstates or freeways from the waaay-olden days like biz40 thru W-S or the Pennsylvania Turnpike. While i reallize the safety benefits of the modern freeways, the cost is just through the roof.

They don't make 'em like they used to. The feds and states, to a lesser degree, are the keepers of the interstates, with good reason. ("do with your local roads what you want, but don't mess with my interstates!") I guess one can argue either side of the safety versus capacity & cost of a roadway, but road design standards, i would argue, do follow with other accepted trends in society in the last 20-50 years or so... think OSHA, EPA, Americans w/Disabilities Act, stricter building codes, etc.

A little off topic, but... I think I remember hearing that during the construction of the Hoover Dam, Golden Gate Bridge, and Empire State Bldg in the early 30s, dozens of men lost their lives, but work was so scarce, there were always plenty of men to take their place an little was ever done to improve conditions. Can you imagine that today? A person loses his life on a construction site, and it stands a good chance of being shut down for weeks. Bottom line: Safety is definitely more and more of a priority, but it does come with a price tag.

[atlrvr]

Dianne is definetly Bi-Polar....her views of LRT change with each article.

I don't see why we are so anxious to widen 485.....is it the state's responsibility to accomodate sprawl? The people who continue to move to south Charlotte should be well aware of the traffic conditions, and the first people who moved shouldn't act surprised that they weren't the only ones to have the brilliant idea.

It was designed as a truck by-pass for the cities core, not as a state-subsidized ticket to live in an ever-expanding suburbia.

[Miesian Corners]

Tell the truth, brother!

[nyxmike]

Does anyone know when Providence Road from I-485 to Rea Road in Union County will be widened? Didn't they delay it?

[dubone]

Does anyone know when Providence Road from I-485 to Rea Road in Union County will be widened? Didn't they delay it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i think you should just move, rather than wait for traffic nightmares out there to be resolved.

according to ncdot, though, the right of way is currently being acquired, and construction will be paid for (which usually is when they do the work) in FY07

http://www.ncdot.org/planning/development/...vision10map.htm

[peaceloveunderstanding]

heh, thats going to be total hell. When I go down to my parent's house it takes two lights to get through the Providence and Audrey Kell intersection. While the widening is taking place (and before then) it will probably take 4 lights.

[dubone]

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/12691396.htm

485 is now 3 lanes per direction west of 77.

This is unexciting news for the moment, but in a couple years, when the northwest sections opens between 85 and northlake/77, this will be a very competitive bypass for 77 through town, and 3 lanes will be highly necessary. it is good that they noticed the problem before the announced the section as "complete", which would have meant it would not have been able to be widened for decades.

[nyxmike]

i think you should just move, rather than wait for traffic nightmares out there to be resolved.

according to ncdot, though, the right of way is currently being acquired, and construction will be paid for (which usually is when they do the work) in FY07

http://www.ncdot.org/planning/development/...vision10map.htm

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, my parents were actually looking to move over there (haha) in Highgate. It's a nice neighborhood but Providence Road is terrible - 2007 isn't too bad (will it be done that same year or will it take longer to widen - anyone wanna guess?)- but atleast now you can get Rea Road from Providence so you can use it as a bypass.

485 - will the northwest section (and all the remaining sections) be 6 lanes wide as well?

[dubone]

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/new...on/12708859.htm

i just love how to solve local-traffic problems, the planners and transportation officials are looking to an interstate freeway!!!

These thoroughfares are overloaded because there are no redundant neighborhood outlets and redundant lower-capacity roads or streets. You have no option other than harris blvd in U-city. period. city boulevard will help some, but it is all woefully inadequate.

No wonder 485 in the south is as bad, it is the same way, with the local streets dramatically under capacity, so you have no choice but to take the freeway. at least U-city will have Harris and 485, but if they'd simply plan more thoroughfare inter-connections and require connectivity and multiple outlets for neighborhoods, the problem would disappear.

[dubone]

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/12915680.htm

roundabouts on the interchanges will be kinda cool, i think.

they have one in clemmons, nc. it not only keeps traffic moving, but they add a uniqueness and charm to the area....which is a rare effect.

it is also really cool how they are now planning these interchanges to employ a gridnetwork, which developers will be responsible for building. AMEN!

i just wish they would have learned that one 10 years ago, and we could have saved some serious traffic problems.

[DigitalSky]

I always wondered how roundabouts would work on interstates

[monsoon]

There was/is a rather infamous one on I-85 in Spartanburg and in fact the only one that I have ever seen. This is business 85 now as they have build a bypass around this part of Spartanburg. I actually think it was a traffic circle and not a round-a-bout.

[Norm2]

Anyone seen the plans for these roundabouts? I just cant imagine them in my head yet lol.

[dubone]

the one in clemmons, which i think will be much like this looks like this:

basically, if you are turning right on or off the interchange, you have your own lane. if you want to turn left on or off the interchange, you go around the roundabout to do it, but you must yield to other traffic on the roundabout. to go straight, you must go around the roundabout.

It actually is less complicated for users than typical roundabouts, as each of the interchange ramps is only one way... so as you can see on the drawing.

[DigitalSky]

makes sense, nice diagram!

[RiverwoodCLT]

On high volume traffic it would not work as good a signal lights.

[Spartan]

There was/is a rather infamous one on I-85 in Spartanburg and in fact the only one that I have ever seen. This is business 85 now as they have build a bypass around this part of Spartanburg. I actually think it was a traffic circle and not a round-a-bout.

Hearon Circle in Spartanburg (at the Asheville Hwy/ SC-56 exit) is pretty efficient, but it doesn't resemble what dubone posted. The only downside to the circle is that at peak traffic times it canget alittle backed up. It requires more patience (and less mindlessness), but over all it makes for a better intersection. Just look at all of the roads converging on this one spot. A traffic circle makes perfect sense here

[dubone]

On high volume traffic it would not work as good a signal lights.

i agree. but signals can be added eventually if necessary. They also might have variations on this design that are more able to handle higher volumes.

[Norm2]

Thanks for the diagram! that was pretty helpful!

[peaceloveunderstanding]

I still have no idea how one of these things would work. I would probably get confused and go the wrong way on one of those things.

[dubone]

I still have no idea how one of these things would work. I would probably get confused and go the wrong way on one of those things.

the signs and arrows are better in real life than my mspaint diagram .

[willrusso]

In all honesty, Charlotte is not the only city in NC feeling the money squeeze, and in many ways Charlotte is better off than the Triad and the Triangle. After living on both sides of the fence now, it sounds absurd to blame Charlotte's road woes on some kind of Raleigh preference from the DOT.

Instead of being Meck-centric perhaps the urban areas of the state should act together and try to obtain more road funding.

I dunno, I find it rather strange that Raleigh has had a beltway for over a decade now, whereas Charlotte is just now getting one. I-540, which will be Raleigh's SECOND beltway, is almost halfway completed.

Also, has anyone from Charlotte noticed that the northern portion of I-440 has these glamorous looking red-brick sound barrier walls --- and ornamental bushes/landscaping on the center median. I've never seen landscaping between jersey walls before lol.