Thinking about moving to Providence?

[TheAnk]

What a post! this thread has some good info.. It is good to see peoples' opinion of Prov.. It seems like most people are talking about living, and the East Side is the place to rent. No question.. But investing is a different animal in Prov. Someone posted that Boston will experience a 52% drop in price, and Prov will drop 39%. This is incorrect; Boston has a 52% chance to drop in the next 2 years.. Prov has a 39% chance.. Still, Prov was in the top 10, and the others were all MA, CA and NY (with 10 Det).. YIKES...

Alarming.. As far as my current opinion, areas like the Eat Side and rapidly approaching Fed Hill, are not good investments per say.. They are and can be, however good owner occ houses.. Rent a couple units, and pay about what you would in rent... Armory Properties, for some reason, is selling a Bobo dream over there.. Not sure I agree.. If you want a 3 fam in East Side, you are looking at around 450-500k.. Tough to make the rents come in at that.. Fed Hill is now in mid to low 300s, also tough to run profitable.. People are selling on the projected value POST LUX CONDOS... Thats interesting to me..

Big difference.. With 30 years rates hitting 6% recently, it will soon erode at prices... And since the current ask prices with projected rents are coming to about break even, I think it is very difficult to find something that can just be put in service without some major investment..

Rents are high, and i think they are tapped out... Unless some jobs come to Prov, or a lot moore people do my commute to Boston everyday, I think things could stall...

Needless to say, I still love the city, it is just increasingly difficult to find a apt house that turns a profit..

Also, PMI just said they would no longer offer mortgage insurance on certain loans; which could really affect the market.. Something like 40% of all loans in 2004 were from 0-10% down.. These type loans will be severly limited, in my opinion... Leaving some low cash down borrowers relegated to the death trap of variable 2nd piggy back loans, which are a nightmare... the days of cheap money is coming to a close..

So, add in the condo glut, which with 2000 new units MAY stifle the market, I am a bit spooked about buying another in Prov for now...

The reason Smith Hill is stalling is the number of "affordable housing" there.. There are the projects Admiral Terrace and Chad Brown.. Then, the area by Goddard Street near the State House, there are many low income housing small projects.. It is stifling any private investment...

So, I am officially on hiatus from looking for another place.. I think even though Prov is experiencing a one time Gentrification, I think it is also approaching 88-89 status.. Since I was a wee tike more interested in Nintendo and Colecovision then, I asked old real estate agents.. they seem to think that SOME of the appreciation is caused by out of town money not doing their due dilligence..

So, The Ank is a bit spooked, and until he sees jobs and/or high income new residents, he is patiently taking a time out... Although, with good research and cost appraisals, there are still moneymakers out there.. Jus not like it was...

Sorry to be doom and gloom.. Cause since most of you are looking owner occ, that is no question still an option...

Cotuit, on being a landlord.. The only things I think you need to know are.. if a tenant needs a fix, you respond swiftly.. If they have a concern, you listen... If they don't pay rent on time, reinforce the rules.. you will not get calls in the middle of the night.. But you need to be on the ball, and not do the bare minimum.. Fixing things and listening to your people in a very timely manner will prove your best relatioonsip builder.. Giving tenants ownership feel and empowereing them will lead to happy people... And.. keep great books.. For a number of reasons...

[Cotuit]

Cotuit, on being a landlord.. The only things I think you need to know are.. if a tenant needs a fix, you respond swiftly.. If they have a concern, you listen... If they don't pay rent on time, reinforce the rules.. you will not get calls in the middle of the night.. But you need to be on the ball, and not do the bare minimum.. Fixing things and listening to your people in a very timely manner will prove your best relatioonsip builder.. Giving tenants ownership feel and empowereing them will lead to happy people... And.. keep great books.. For a number of reasons...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the advice. We're sort of leaning towards a multi-family at this point thinking that our parents aren't getting any younger and will be needing looking after before we know it. If we could make some money on a ground floor flat for a while, then move the 'rents into it when the time comes, they should still be able to give us a modicum of money from SS once they're in (maintanence and utilities and such). I think we'd want to focus on getting one apartment set and ready to rent straight off, then work on the other units, including our own (i.e. we want to make sure that the heat works, and the toilet works, and all the doorknobs are secured, and what-not on the rental so we can keep the renter issues to a minimum). My boyfriend's brother is also a tenant option, he lives in the same building as us now.

[ArtInRuins]

I agree with The Ank, a good deal on the East Side is getting harder and harder to find. I am in the Camp Street neighborhood, and lucky for me, no one wanted to invest in the area five years ago. Not so anymore, and typically, along Camp Street and Pleasant is where you can still find deals because of the stigma of \CAMP STREET\. Yeah, I hear gun shots every few months, but this is a city. There are plenty of gun shots all the time.

Sections of Pawtucket are very, very nice, and still affordable. Just like Boston, the farther out from the center, the cheaper.

And as far as landlording goes, I love it, but then again, i have friends in the house. In exchange for good rent, i live for free and we live like a semi-commune, having house dinners and bar be ques and borrowing food when we run out. It's fun, but a bit of an ideal situation, I know.

[cdogstu99]

TheAnk, I have to agree with the points you've made about Houses in Providence. I live in Quincy, MA and have been looking to buy a multi family. With the prices in the Boston area far from affordable, I had been looking in Providence as an alternative.

With your prior suggestions, I have been looking in the Fed Hill area and a bit on The East Side. On the East Side, the average 2 - Family is in the 400K range, and that isn't even getting you something completely desirable. I really don't think these prices can hold up. There are a number of reasons why they should fall, with the two major factors being Rising Interest Rates and Continued Condo , Housing Developments. And as these new developments are built and renters can soon afford a place to buy on their own, then it get's even harder to rent out your units. The fact that a few brokers you talked to had mentioned out-of towners not doing their homework, it makes perfect sense. If you can think back to the Stock Market Tech bubble in the late 90's, as tech stocks kept going up, and people were making money hand over fist, then everyone and their brother decided to move their money into the stock market. I'm getting the same feeling in the Real Estate market, as when you look at these multi-families, you look at the rents and they don't even come close to covering the mortgages. I'm guessing that people are just blindly investing in real estate without truly doing their due dilligence. AS interest rates move higher, I'm guessing the housing prices will decline. How much, I don't know, but I can't believe they'll go any higher than they are now for a while.

[Cotuit]

What would you all recommend to someone like myself who is not looking at this market as an invest but rather as a long term home? I'm not looking to flip a property in 3 or 4 years to make a profit, I'm looking for a home for 15-20 years, or perhaps for the rest of my life (there's a chance I may move into my parents house on the Cape eventually when they are old and need to be cared for).

I don't want to pay too much for a place and then have it be worth less in 6 months or a year, not because I'm looking for a return on my investment, but I just don't want to have paid too much. Hopefully in 20 years after the market makes an adjustment in the short term, I should be ahead in the long term, you think?

[Judy B]

Hi Everyone,

So I found out this week that I will most definitely be moving to Providence in June. I got the position at RIH that I was hoping for! Based on what I've been hearing from you folks, I think I'm going to love the city.

Thank you to everyone who gave me (and Emily!) advice on neighborhoods--this was very helpful. I'll be coming to Providence in a few weeks to "scout out" the specific areas that I would like to live in. Just a leisurely weekend of walking around and sitting in cafes (my mom will be joining me), people watching, etc...

So here is my question for you folks: in the various neighborhoods that you live in, what are the main commercial areas? Wherever I live, I'd like to live within a few blocks of the neighborhood cafe, dry cleaners, bookstore, corner grocery store, etc. I am specifically asking for street names/intersections. And I am particularly interested in Wayland Square, Hope Village, and Fox Point. I know that I am being anal, and you can let me know if this is an absurd request.

Thank you for your input!

Judy

[kinematix]

Hi Judy,

Congrats on the position at RIH, I actually work there too. My personal preference of the places you mentioned in your post is Wayland Square (which on a map would be the intersection of Wayland Ave. and Angell/ South Angell.) Within a few blocks you have two great supermarkets (a Whole Foods and another, Eastside Marketplace), a few coffee shops (including a Starbucks with outdoor seating, some upscale shopping and a couple of bookshops. Also right on a bus route to downtown which isn't too far a walk either. I lived in the wayland square area for a year and liked it a lot. Not too much hustle and bustle but relaxing and safe.

and no you aren't asking too much

[Judy B]

Hi Judy,

Congrats on the position at RIH, I actually work there too. My personal preference of the places you mentioned in your post is Wayland Square (which on a map would be the intersection of Wayland Ave. and Angell/ South Angell.) Within a few blocks you have two great supermarkets (a Whole Foods and another, Eastside Marketplace), a few coffee shops (including a Starbucks with outdoor seating, some upscale shopping and a couple of bookshops. Also right on a bus route to downtown which isn't too far a walk either. I lived in the wayland square area for a year and liked it a lot. Not too much hustle and bustle but relaxing and safe.

and no you aren't asking too much

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey, thanks kinematix! Why did you leave the neighborhood?

Judy

[Cotuit]

I think Wayland Square is the best of the neighbourhoods you mentioned for the kind of area you desire. The biggest reason being it's accessibility to grocery stores. Hope Village is nice, but it's rather suburban in nature, and a little ways out of downtown. You'll constantly be driving or waiting for the bus to get into 'the city.' Wayland is a reasonable walk to Downcity in nice weather. Fox Point is a great neighbourhood as and you may find that you like the Wickenden Street area better than Wayland Square (it's all subjective), but that grocery store accessiblity is key. The trolley goes to Eastside Marketplace via Fox Point, but only on Saturdays.

The number 40 bus which runs through Wayland Square becomes the number 26 to Federal Hill, which is nice.

[kinematix]

I left Wayland Square because I found a place to buy that was simply too good to turn down; I'm now closer to downtown. Also at 23, Wayland square was just a bit too relaxing at times. Given your interests, Judy, WS is an excellent choice.

[Cotuit]

Just a leisurely weekend of walking around and sitting in cafes (my mom will be joining me), people watching, etc...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Some cafe suggestions:

Brewed Awakenings in Union Station Plaza, beside the Marriott Courtyard Hotel near Waterplace Park. They have the best Iced Spiced Chai Latte in town. This is actually a good evening hangout as they serve cocktails at night and have great desserts. The inside has comfy chairs and it's a Wi-Fi Hot Spot. When your here they may have the outdoor seating set up, but there are benches if not. People to watch: Skateboarders riding on the steps.

Coffee Exchange on Wickenden Street in the Fox Point area. The best iced coffee in town because they provide simple syrup for your iced coffee drinking pleasure. They also have notice boards where you may find a lead on a good apartment, or used guitar, or yoga classes... The outdoor deck is hopping year round. People to watch: Earthy crunchy Fox Pointers, and "earthy crunchy" suburbanites arriving off of route 195 in their SUVs.

Olga's Cup & Saucer is a great little cafe in the Jewelry District. Their bread is delicious, the food can be a bit pricey and their coffee can be hit or miss, I usually go with a latte or capuccino because I don't really like their house coffee (maybe they have a lousy house coffee to make people buy the more expensive coffees). The outdoor dining is set in a beautiful garden on the corner of Richmond and Point Streets, get there early because they close at 3pm. People to watch: Office workers from nearby Jewelry District offices.

Cafe Zog Also on Wickenden Street, Cafe Zog has great sandwiches, they make a delicious white mocha (YUM!), and they have a juice bar. The interior is quite nice, especially if you can snag a booth or a table by the window. They have outdoor seating in the back, not so good for people watching. People to watch: East Siders.

Reflections Cafe serves the gay and lesbian community in the Fox Point section of town, but you do not need to be gay or lesbian to enjoy their great wraps, coffees, and desserts. Located at the top of Wickenden Street at the corner of Governor, last stop on the Green Line trolley. People to watch: Gays and lesbians and other Fox Point residents.

Cable Car Cinema & Cafe Yes it's a cinema and a cafe. Yummy food and coffee, outdoor seating on South Main Street during good weather. People to watch: Lots of RISD students.

[eltron]

What would you all recommend to someone like myself who is not looking at this market as an invest but rather as a long term home? I'm not looking to flip a property in 3 or 4 years to make a profit, I'm looking for a home for 15-20 years, or perhaps for the rest of my life (there's a chance I may move into my parents house on the Cape eventually when they are old and need to be cared for).

I don't want to pay too much for a place and then have it be worth less in 6 months or a year, not because I'm looking for a return on my investment, but I just don't want to have paid too much. Hopefully in 20 years after the market makes an adjustment in the short term, I should be ahead in the long term, you think?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just want to quickly reply to The Ank and my answer your

question Cotuit-

As everyone here is aware, there has been a rapid escalation of prices in Providence. I think the dramatic price increases we have seen recently have taken the market from a period of severe undervalue (about five to two years ago) to about equilibrium, or "fair value" (http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/home_valuations/). Interestingly, the Boston area probably hit "fair value" four or five years ago, and continued to blow right by it to the current market value, which as we know is massively higher than Providence's.

So there have been many economists lately who have been predicting the "housing bubble" will burst because of the recent rapid rise in prices, an increase in interest rates, etc. There have also been a number of economists who have taken the opposite position, saying that a housing bubble does not exist, and that while prices may moderate, they will not go down significantly. I agree with this second position, specifically within Rhode Island, for a couple of reasons (and I do know a little bit about it because I wrote my master's thesis on housing markets and affordable housing in several states, including RI and Mass.): 1. the production of housing is significantly under demand, and will be for the foreseeable future. The demand for new units in RI is around 30,000 over the next five years - as we have recently seen, there are about 1700 units, almost all "luxury," coming on line in Providence over the next couple of years, and maybe 4000-5000 coming on line in the rest of state. The math there is simple. Massachusetts unit demands are on the order of 100,000 or more! It just is not happening, not with tightened zoning restrictions and a general lack of land to build on. Its getting more and more difficult to find even good brownfield sites to build on. There is a very interesting recent article in The Economist (http://www.planetizen.com/news/item.php?id=16122) that cites land use restrictions as the biggest driver of housing costs, esp. in the northeast and California. Up to 40-50% of the cost is directly attributable to "permission to build," which is very interesting. And we certainly are not going to see a massive rollback of landuse restrictions anytime soon. So even with increasing interest rates and an influx of some new units, I don't foresee a decrease in prices coming, at least more than a leveling off or localized 3-5% drop, if that.

However, I think The Ank is right in that we will see a decrease in smaller investors interested in 1-5 triple deckers. The price point of individual multi-family houses is not really profitably supported by rents, unless you have a chunk of cash lying around to buy free and clear. But I see very little slowdown in the market for owner-occupied quality multi-family houses. If you are interested in living in the city, the benefits of owning I think will allow people to invest more into their owned "living-unit" than that same unit would be worth as a rental, just because of the simple fact that that unit is STILL cheaper than a condo Downtown or a single-fam in even Warwick or Cranston. And still WAY cheaper than East Greenwich, Exeter, or anywhere in Massachusetts. So Cotuit, in my opinion, even if you were to buy in say a year or two, I don't think you will be in any danger of experiencing a decrease in the value of your new home, and over the long run, will probably come out far, far ahead of you would if you rented long-term.

Edited March 21, 2005 by eltron

[Cotuit]

So Cotuit, in my opinion, even if you were to buy in say a year or two, I don't think you will be in any danger of experiencing a decrease in the value of your new home, and over the long run, will probably come out far, far ahead of you would if you rented long-term.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well that's a relief!

[Judy B]

Some cafe suggestions:

Brewed Awakenings in Union Station Plaza, beside the Marriott Courtyard Hotel near Waterplace Park. They have the best Iced Spiced Chai Latte in town. This is actually a good evening hangout as they serve cocktails at night and have great desserts. The inside has comfy chairs and it's a Wi-Fi Hot Spot. When your here they may have the outdoor seating set up, but there are benches if not. People to watch: Skateboarders riding on the steps.

Coffee Exchange on Wickenden Street in the Fox Point area. The best iced coffee in town because they provide simple syrup for your iced coffee drinking pleasure. They also have notice boards where you may find a lead on a good apartment, or used guitar, or yoga classes... The outdoor deck is hopping year round. People to watch: Earthy crunchy Fox Pointers, and "earthy crunchy" suburbanites arriving off of route 195 in their SUVs. 

Olga's Cup & Saucer is a great little cafe in the Jewelry District. Their bread is delicious, the food can be a bit pricey and their coffee can be hit or miss, I usually go with a latte or capuccino because I don't really like their house coffee (maybe they have a lousy house coffee to make people buy the more expensive coffees). The outdoor dining is set in a beautiful garden on the corner of Richmond and Point Streets, get there early because they close at 3pm. People to watch: Office workers from nearby Jewelry District offices.

Cafe Zog Also on Wickenden Street, Cafe Zog has great sandwiches, they make a delicious white mocha (YUM!), and they have a juice bar. The interior is quite nice, especially if you can snag a booth or a table by the window. They have outdoor seating in the back, not so good for people watching. People to watch: East Siders.

Reflections Cafe serves the gay and lesbian community in the Fox Point section of town, but you do not need to be gay or lesbian to enjoy their great wraps, coffees, and desserts. Located at the top of Wickenden Street at the corner of Governor, last stop on the Green Line trolley. People to watch: Gays and lesbians and other Fox Point residents.

Cable Car Cinema & Cafe Yes it's a cinema and a cafe. Yummy food and coffee, outdoor seating on South Main Street during good weather. People to watch: Lots of RISD students.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cotuit,

Fabulous cafe reviews!! Definitely enough places to keep my mom and I highly caffeinated during our trip (and entertained!).

Next big question: B&B/hotel suggestions?

Judy

[Cotuit]

Depends on your price range. Holiday Inn is probably the cheapest, but well, it's a Holiday Inn, adequate if you are on a budget. I stayed there when I was visiting the city to apartment hunt.

The Biltmore, The Westin, The Marriott Courtyard, and The Hotel Providence are all nice places right Downcity.

The other Marriott on Orms Street is slightly out of the way, but the Gold Line Trolley runs from there to Kennedy Plaza.

DO NOT stay at the Radisson, I've never heard a good thing about it, and it's out next to the highway in this weird no man's land.

Dolce Villa Hotel is the new pensione on Federal Hill, right on Depasquale Plaza. I have no idea what the rates are like, but I'd like to stay there.

Here is a list of B&Bs and Inns in Greater Providence.

[provid]

I agree about the Radisson..... its in one odd ball spot.

[freetibet]

Hello--

I will be moving to Providence this summer to take a position in the English Department at RISD. This discussion thread has already been an excellent resource as I think about where in town to settle. I have a couple of specific questions I hope folks might address. I currently live in Seattle, where I've found it easy to go for weeks without driving my car; out here I walk or bus almost everywhere I need to go. So, I'm a little concerned about the (lack of?) public transportation in Providence. If I live in one of these neighborhoods (Armory, Mount Hope, Washington Park) will I find regular and safe public transportation to RISD? I've visited the RIPTA website. To me, bus service seems regular and frequent enough, but I would welcome your opinions on this issue. My second question pertains to green space and recreation. I run and wonder if there are areas on the West Side of town (accessible from the Armory District) where I could find good, safe routes of between 3 and 6 miles. I don't mind having part of the route be urban, but I don't want to have to jog from the Armory to Blackstone Blvd to find a green running route.

Thanks

[RCBrickman]

Please forgive if by starting a new topic, cyber redundancy has ensued. Boards have so many different interfaces and navigation- so many bytes, so little time.

I lived in Providence some time ago-moved to Boston for 15 years-then the boondocks for 4. I'm coming back to La Providence. I'm trying to find brokers who deal with rentals, and have good reputations. Google is not being very helpful. I need to see how much research I can do long distance-and a local contact who will align to my interests.

I was focusing on the east side as that's the area that was most vibrant, back then. But reading along-sounds like many places are "funky."

I'm an artist who will been engaged in one of the academic institutions there-probably RISD (i don't play basketball) - maybe Brawn U. I'm looking for an apt - not apt building complex style-more in multi unit house kind of things.

Any ideas would be helpful-and I promise Good Cyber Karma, as I'll contribute in a way I can, to the Uplanet.

Best

RCBrickman

[kinematix]

One piece of advice I often hear is to stay away from Bilodeau Property Management. I think they may only offer rental properties on the East side but I've never heard anything good about them, from anyone, ever. Some of the best deals are in the paper which is the Providence Journal (projo.com) Figure out roughly where you might want to live and then you might get more advice- if you want to be as close to Brown and RISD as possible, you'll pay more but the location is great in general and there are countless for rent signs out this time of year with student leases ending in May or June.

[provid]

I also hear Bilodeau Property Management can be hit or miss.

[Frankie811]

Please forgive if by starting a new topic, cyber redundancy has ensued. Boards have so many different interfaces and navigation- so many bytes, so little time.

I lived in Providence some time ago-moved to Boston for 15 years-then the boondocks for 4. I'm coming back to La Providence. I'm trying to find brokers who deal with rentals, and have good reputations. Google is not being very helpful. I need to see how much research I can do long distance-and a local contact who will align to my interests.

I was focusing on the east side as that's the area that was most vibrant, back then. But reading along-sounds like many places are "funky."

I'm an artist who will been engaged in one of the academic institutions there-probably RISD (i don't play basketball) - maybe Brawn U. I'm looking for an apt - not apt building complex style-more in multi unit house kind of things.

Any ideas would be helpful-and I promise Good Cyber Karma, as I'll contribute in a way I can, to the Uplanet.

Try Shein Management, 845 N. Main St., Prov. RI, 02904  272-4845 / 351-3227

Best

RCBrickman

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Try Shein Management, 845 N. Main St., Prov. RI, 02904 272-4845 / 351-3227

[Cotuit]

It seems that rental agents are very few and far between in Providence. Coming from New York and Boston where there is a real estate agent on every corner I was befuddled about how people find housing in Providence when I first started planning to move here. So much is owner occupied and the best deals are the apartments above the little old ladies house sign in the window type places.

I got my apartment by happening on a one-women agency on Federal Hill, and happenning to catch her at one of the rare moments she was in the office.

[Cotuit]

Do yourself a favour and make sure that you live within bus, foot, or bike distance of RISD. There is no parking there, it's a hot issue, and people get nasty about it. It's best if you can keep from being any part of it.

The good news is that the entire RISD campus is within a 3-4 minute walk of Kennedy Plaza, and Kennedy Plaza is where all the buses coming into the city centre go, so anywhere in Providence you can take a bus to within a short walk to RISD. In fact some of RISDs parking is further from Campus than Kennedy Plaza is.

The Mount Hope bus is the 42 line which runs through the bus tunnel, the southern end of which is under a RISD building.

Not really sure about the running bit, I'm more of a sitting on the couch eating ice cream kind of guy.

EDIT: Actually, Mt. Hope (I was thinking of Hope Village which is north of Mt. Hope) is mostly within easy walking distance of most of RISD (there are some downtown buildings and some buildings on South Main that would be a little more of a hike from Mt. Hope). Even if you lived in a more eastern part of the Armory, closer to downtown, you *could* walk depending on how much of a walker you are. But be warned, snow removal from a walkers perspective in the city sucks, especially on the bridges over 95 (which is between the Armory and RISD). So you going to be on the bus more often than not during the winter.

[RCBrickman]

One piece of advice I often hear is to stay away from Bilodeau Property Management. I think they may only offer rental properties on the East side but I've never heard anything good about them, from anyone, ever. Some of the best deals are in the paper which is the Providence Journal (projo.com) Figure out roughly where you might want to live and then you might get more advice- if you want to be as close to Brown and RISD as possible, you'll pay more but the location is great in general and there are countless for rent signs out this time of year with student leases ending in May or June.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well it's great to see input by two to stay away from Bilodeau Property Management. I will be moving in Late May/first of June-so i'm hopeful about some student exits-as long as everyone got good grades. My preference will be for something "grown up" amidst the lovingly placed, empty kegs, out on the sidewalks.

I really will be happy to be back in Providence.

Thanks, so much.

[Judy B]

DO NOT stay at the Radisson, I've never heard a good thing about it, and it's out next to the highway in this weird no man's land.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's kind of funny--I have only been to Providence once (for an interview), and I stayed at the Radisson!

Actually, the room I stayed in was quite nice (I swear to god it was)! But agreed, the location is less than ideal, which is why I'm open to other suggestions.

By the way, thanks, cotuit, for the hotel info/link. You are truly a fountain of information!

Judy