Thinking about moving to Providence?

[persephassa]

a 2nd fl apt on Rochambeau for the next 12 months. We're staying in the Hotel Providence for one more night and then we're unpacking our POD tomorrow and moving in to our apt. Good times!

AHH!! you live right near me. i saw your pod on rochambeau. i live on lancaster, down the street off ivy.

[megk]

i think we need a thread called "thinking about moving AWAY from Providence."

I don't mean to start anything, but I'm curious to know about the warts you see around Providence. I know there are places that need cleaning up, but that's true in any area. It has always struck me that you're trying there...there is some industry and opportunity.

Maybe it is because we're stuck in a very backwards town where there are really only 2 employers: Northern Arizona University and WL Gore. I'd rather bravely and optimistically say that the salaries there are about 2/3rds of what you'd expect anywhere else, yet food and housing are comparable.

Meg

[jencoleslaw]

I don't mean to start anything, but I'm curious to know about the warts you see around Providence. I know there are places that need cleaning up, but that's true in any area. It has always struck me that you're trying there...there is some industry and opportunity.

Maybe it is because we're stuck in a very backwards town where there are really only 2 employers: Northern Arizona University and WL Gore. I'd rather bravely and optimistically say that the salaries there are about 2/3rds of what you'd expect anywhere else, yet food and housing are comparable.

Meg

i am having a crisis of faith.

[Recchia]

I don't mean to start anything, but I'm curious to know about the warts you see around Providence.

Meg

warts?

[Garris]

I don't mean to start anything, but I'm curious to know about the warts you see around Providence.

I'm interpreting this to mean, "what are the things that give you pause about living there" or "what isn't up to other metro area standards..."

Here's my list:

- Graffiti is worse than average here...

- Tax burden in Providence is pretty darn high...

- Parks, despite some improvement, are generally undermaintained...

- In general upkeep overall, few areas, even the most gilded areas of the city, often feel far from pristine...

- Neighborhood centers are oddly under-retailed...

- Waterfront is (currently) dramatically underutilized as a resource...

That's off the top of my head. Providence, like anywhere, isn't perfect and, like almost anywhere, how happy you are often depends upon how much you like your neighborhood.

I've been thrilled here overall. I can only think of 3 cities off the top of my head I'd rather live in (Portland, OR; Minneapolis, MN; and Vancouver, BC).

i am having a crisis of faith.

Why?

- Garris

[Jerry2]

i am having a crisis of faith.

Could you elaborate?

[jencoleslaw]

no elaboration here, i'm afraid--i learned long ago never to post anything in a forum that i wouldn't want published on the front page of the daily paper. Or printed out and put on someone's desk.

But, maybe at the next get together over a few beers. Sorry to muddy up the "moving to Providence" thread.

[Jerry2]

I'm interpreting this to mean, "what are the things that give you pause about living there" or "what isn't up to other metro area standards..."

Here's my list:

- Graffiti is worse than average here...

- Tax burden in Providence is pretty darn high...

- Parks, despite some improvement, are generally undermaintained...

- In general upkeep overall, few areas, even the most gilded areas of the city, often feel far from pristine...

- Neighborhood centers are oddly under-retailed...

- Waterfront is (currently) dramatically underutilized as a resource...

That's off the top of my head. Providence, like anywhere, isn't perfect and, like almost anywhere, how happy you are often depends upon how much you like your neighborhood.

I've been thrilled here overall. I can only think of 3 cities off the top of my head I'd rather live in (Portland, OR; Minneapolis, MN; and Vancouver, BC).

- Garris

My biggest issue lies with the transient population. All the other issues, with the exception of the taxes, are common to many other cities across America. Although a large part of the city is owner-occupied, the housing stock is completely mixed in terms of the number of dwellings. There are no areas where there are large expanses of just condos or just single family homes. Hence, you could buy a beautiful home on a tree-lined quiet street and the 3-family next door has the devil's children living there. It is a complete deterrent to investment. If I want to buy a home, why should I buy in the city when I could go to No. Prov, Warwick, or Ea. Prov. and not have to deal with the riff-raff?

Providence is nice, but it's far from being a true urban gem. There is widespread poverty and it reflects in almost every neighborhood in the city with exceptions in some parts of the East Side. With the overly-generous( #1 in the US) welfare benefits and high Section 8, poor people from around NE will continue to flock to the city and its borders....and that makes it difficult for everyone else to live here long term when there are people with 7 kids, 2 pitbulls, and loud music living right next door.All the new investment in the world ( A. Locomotion etc.) will not turn Providence into a Portland OR. There are 2 extremes on the social ladder when it comes to the residents of the city and very little middle ground. The middle class are all but gone and what's left is this hodgepodge of either extremely poor or emerging professionals. Co-existence would be nice, but it is a perpetual dream. The low- income don't want well-off white people in their area ( see Magoldbe's comments) and emerging professionals don't want to deal with the long term riff-raff associated with poverty. The problem with Prov. is that it's easy to move to 1 particular area and not now what lies beneath until you actually get there.

I agree to a point with Garris that it is what you make it to be, but it does get tiring after a while. Nasty neighbor stories aren't new . When you reach a certain age , you don't feel like dealing with all the BS that goes on around you and peace and solace become more and more important. If I stay in RI, I am seriously considering moving to Bristol. ( all the urban amenities and almost 0 of the bullshyt)

[Jenkins]

My biggest issue lies with the transient population. All the other issues, with the exception of the taxes, are common to many other cities across America. Although a large part of the city is owner-occupied, the housing stock is completely mixed in terms of the number of dwellings. There are no areas where there are large expanses of just condos or just single family homes. Hence, you could buy a beautiful home on a tree-lined quiet street and the 3-family next door has the devil's children living there. It is a complete deterrent to investment. If I want to buy a home, why should I buy in the city when I could go to No. Prov, Warwick, or Ea. Prov. and not have to deal with the riff-raff?

Providence is nice, but it's far from being a true urban gem. There is widespread poverty and it reflects in almost every neighborhood in the city with exceptions in some parts of the East Side. With the overly-generous( #1 in the US) welfare benefits and high Section 8, poor people from around NE will continue to flock to the city and its borders....and that makes it difficult for everyone else to live here long term when there are people with 7 kids, 2 pitbulls, and loud music living right next door.All the new investment in the world ( A. Locomotion etc.) will not turn Providence into a Portland OR. There are 2 extremes on the social ladder when it comes to the residents of the city and very little middle ground. The middle class are all but gone and what's left is this hodgepodge of either extremely poor or emerging professionals. Co-existence would be nice, but it is a perpetual dream. The low- income don't want well-off white people in their area ( see Magoldbe's comments) and emerging professionals don't want to deal with the long term riff-raff associated with poverty. The problem with Prov. is that it's easy to move to 1 particular area and not now what lies beneath until you actually get there.

I agree to a point with Garris that it is what you make it to be, but it does get tiring after a while. Nasty neighbor stories aren't new . When you reach a certain age , you don't feel like dealing with all the BS that goes on around you and peace and solace become more and more important. If I stay in RI, I am seriously considering moving to Bristol. ( all the urban amenities and almost 0 of the bullshyt)

Sounds like you got yourself some really annoying neighbors. Not to sound to pollyanish, but I gotta say my street is zoned for only single family homes, and the there is a nice mix of middle class families (i.e. elderly retired Italians, multi-generational Indian family, African-American school teacher, blue collar Latino family, double income no kids young professional, etc.). No triple deckers or pitbulls to be found. Quiet and well kept overall. Now a few streets over you get more of what you are talking about with triple-deckers and ill-kept area's, so I guess to some extent it depends on what you consider your neighborhood.

[Jerry2]

Sounds like you got yourself some really annoying neighbors. Not to sound to pollyanish, but I gotta say my street is zoned for only single family homes, and the there is a nice mix of middle class families (i.e. elderly retired Italians, multi-generational Indian family, African-American school teacher, blue collar Latino family, double income no kids young professional, etc.). No triple deckers or pitbulls to be found. Quiet and well kept overall. Now a few streets over you get more of what you are talking about with triple-deckers and ill-kept area's, so I guess to some extent it depends on what you consider your neighborhood.

Ok...so the 3 blocks that are nice where you live are great...but you made that point that around the corner is a craphole. Didn't you say you lived on Nellie Street? I used to live there in 97 and it was great, but a few blocks down on Ledge, it was the pits. Charles St. is now a run-down deserted drug-infested welfare hole. The 3 blocks or so of well-kept homes on the hill don't make a neighborhood...

[JJK5]

Ok...so the 3 blocks that are nice where you live are great...but you made that point that around the corner is a craphole. Didn't you say you lived on Nellie Street? I used to live there in 97 and it was great, but a few blocks down on Ledge, it was the pits. Charles St. is now a run-down deserted drug-infested welfare hole. The 3 blocks or so of well-kept homes on the hill don't make a neighborhood...

It's me that lives on Nellie. I believe Jenkins has said he lives on Smart St. It does get worse as you head towards town, and better as you cross into N. Prov/Pawtucket.

[Jenkins]

It's me that lives on Nellie. I believe Jenkins has said he lives on Smart St. It does get worse as you head towards town, and better as you cross into N. Prov/Pawtucket.

Yup, that is me living on a hill on Smart St. And the Ledge area is the crappy area for sure, but in most any city you are only a few blocks in the wrong direction from some unpleasantness or other. Guess it just depends on your tolerance for such things. For awhile there the next door neighbor had a teenage son who consorted with the Ledge Street types, but now he is off in the Navy. If it wasn't these things, though, wouldn't it be the opposite. i.e. 'that damn neighbor down the street with the just oh so perfect lawn and the newly leased german sports car every 3 years, what is he doing building an addition onto his already large home' etc... Sounds like 02908 is ready to make that swap, which is fine, to each his own. Someday I will be ready to move I am sure, if because of kids and the need for a good school system. But until then I love being just a mile or two from so many things I enjoy doing.

[runawayjim]

Yup, that is me living on a hill on Smart St. And the Ledge area is the crappy area for sure, but in most any city you are only a few blocks in the wrong direction from some unpleasantness or other. Guess it just depends on your tolerance for such things. For awhile there the next door neighbor had a teenage son who consorted with the Ledge Street types, but now he is off in the Navy. If it wasn't these things, though, wouldn't it be the opposite. i.e. 'that damn neighbor down the street with the just oh so perfect lawn and the newly leased german sports car every 3 years, what is he doing building an addition onto his already large home' etc... Sounds like 02908 is ready to make that swap, which is fine, to each his own. Someday I will be ready to move I am sure, if because of kids and the need for a good school system. But until then I love being just a mile or two from so many things I enjoy doing.

i think providence has more "not so nice" areas scattered around than most other cities that i've been to. most have larger nice areas with the "not so nice" areas all kind of keeping to themselves in various sections. providence's nice areas have pockets of "not so nice" areas moreso than most of the other cities i've been to.

i will say that elmhurst is very suburban and probably moving more towards that direction than away from it.

Edited June 21, 2006 by runawayjim

[Jenkins]

i think providence has more "not so nice" areas scattered around than most other cities that i've been to. most have larger nice areas with the "not so nice" areas all kind of keeping to themselves in various sections. providence's nice areas have pockets of "not so nice" areas moreso than most of the other cities i've been to.

i will say that elmhurst is very suburban and probably moving more towards that direction than away from it.

That sounds like a pretty reasonable assessment to me. But as long as the general trend is for the better and not for the worse I will stick around. Looking at it in 5 years increments, is Providence better off today than 5 years ago? 10?

[runawayjim]

That sounds like a pretty reasonable assessment to me. But as long as the general trend is for the better and not for the worse I will stick around. Looking at it in 5 years increments, is Providence better off today than 5 years ago? 10?

i haven't been here that long... but in the 2.5 years i've been here, it's improving. and from what i've heard it's much better than it was 5-10 years ago.

[Jerry2]

i think providence has more "not so nice" areas scattered around than most other cities that i've been to. most have larger nice areas with the "not so nice" areas all kind of keeping to themselves in various sections. providence's nice areas have pockets of "not so nice" areas moreso than most of the other cities i've been to.

i will say that elmhurst is very suburban and probably moving more towards that direction than away from it.

Even Elmhurst has its own share of issues. While there are absolutely beautiful streets, the area is choked by the Valley View projects( Arbor Glen) Admiral Street, and Pleasant Valley Parkway, as well as Smith all the way up to Newport Creamery. The ghetto is right around the corner and its presence overlaps into the area in the form of riff-raff. ( drugs, crime, and loudness) While it may be one of the least areas of concern for violence in the city, I would hardly describe it as being a place to realistically raise a family. I don't think anywhere in Providence is realistic to raise a family anymore. The city is becoming a hodgepodge of very poor and emerging professionals. As you can see, the population is dropping too. Worcester has now eclipsed Providence as the 3rd largest city in NE. Their school system is better. They have better neighborhoods and their not in dire financial straits like this city is in... I apologize for the rant, but reality bites. WTS, it's still tops in architecture, aesthetics, scandal, and overall allure. I just don't think that's enough to keep me here or encourage new people to move here. We are slowly mixing this boutique image with our already present welfare image....and they don't gel.

Question for Jenkins....Did you only plan on living here for a few years or did you change your mind after you realized that the school system is one of the worst in NE? I would guess the latter because that is a lot more common than you think. ...at least in the top 3 concerns. If the city was your investment portfolio, would you take any more risk by investing? Now let's see what happens when these adjustable loans come due,.....

[runawayjim]

Even Elmhurst has its own share of issues. While there are absolutely beautiful streets, the area is choked by the Valley View projects( Arbor Glen) Admiral Street, and Pleasant Valley Parkway, as well as Smith all the way up to Newport Creamery. The ghetto is right around the corner and its presence overlaps into the area in the form of riff-raff. ( drugs, crime, and loudness) While it may be one of the least areas of concern for violence in the city, I would hardly describe it as being a place to realistically raise a family. I don't think anywhere in Providence is realistic to raise a family anymore. The city is becoming a hodgepodge of very poor and emerging professionals. As you can see, the population is dropping too. Worcester has now eclipsed Providence as the 3rd largest city in NE. Their school system is better. They have better neighborhoods and their not in dire financial straits like this city is in... I apologize for the rant, but reality bites. WTS, it's still tops in architecture, aesthetics, scandal, and overall allure. I just don't think that's enough to keep me here or encourage new people to move here. We are slowly mixing this boutique image with our already present welfare image....and they don't gel.

Question for Jenkins....Did you only plan on living here for a few years or did you change your mind after you realized that the school system is one of the worst in NE? I would guess the latter because that is a lot more common than you think. ...at least in the top 3 concerns. If the city was your investment portfolio, would you take any more risk by investing? Now let's see what happens when these adjustable loans come due,.....

i don't think worcester will ever eclipse providence in attractiveness. and i disagree with your assessment of providence as a place to raise a family. elmhurst is actually a great place, especially the area west of river ave. east of river is mostly PC students and it melds more towards smith hill and wanskuck. but west of river is almost entirely single family homes that actually have yards, some are pretty nice in fact. then there's the areas of mount pleasant and the east side that are similar. there are a ton of middle class families in my neighborhood (which is east of river ave between eaton and admiral). yes, admiral isn't so nice, but it's not terrible either. it's lower class, but it's not ghetto. i don't feel unsafe on admiral any time of the day or night.

[Cotuit]

no elaboration here, i'm afraid--i learned long ago never to post anything in a forum that i wouldn't want published on the front page of the daily paper. Or printed out and put on someone's desk.

Yes, people shouldn't post things they don't want everyone knowing about. Providence is so small that sooner or later someone will figure out who you are, especially when you use your real name. I've had a number of people tell me they wish they could post more, but their position makes that difficult.

I do encourage anyone who has something they want posted, but not attached to their name, to PM or email me. Thanks to the Apple vs. Think Secret Supreme Court case, I'm now a journalist and can protect my sources. Though, even with that, it's still a small city and people can figure out sources pretty easily at times.

I hope that whatever transpired Jen, it hasn't soured you on the forum, and I hope you'll continue to contribute. Even when you're being a crazy tree lady and I adamantly disagree with you, I still value your input.

[Jerry2]

i don't think worcester will ever eclipse providence in attractiveness. and i disagree with your assessment of providence as a place to raise a family. elmhurst is actually a great place, especially the area west of river ave. east of river is mostly PC students and it melds more towards smith hill and wanskuck. but west of river is almost entirely single family homes that actually have yards, some are pretty nice in fact. then there's the areas of mount pleasant and the east side that are similar. there are a ton of middle class families in my neighborhood (which is east of river ave between eaton and admiral). yes, admiral isn't so nice, but it's not terrible either. it's lower class, but it's not ghetto. i don't feel unsafe on admiral any time of the day or night.

If you decide to have children, will you send them to Providence schools? Furthermore, the "tons" of middle class families that live around you...Are they mostly elderly who have lived there a long time? Or are they legitimate new residents that will contribute an investment to the city? I guess my point is that I see the future of the city as only 2 distinct social classes forming...indirectly homogenizing the landscape....a sort of boutique edgy Boston suburb if you will...limited private investment...increased poverty...sub-par neighborhoods with pockets of gentrification. Providence of 10 years ago might haave been a little more run down than now because of the lack of investment, but there were more areas that you could raise a family or get to know your neighbors...Change is inevitable anywhere...but when your own political representatives like Sen. Pichardo and Sen. Diaz are backing proposals to allow illegal aliens free health care and free college tuition...you begin to wonder the future of the very plce you call home. I love Providence, but I can still love the city without actually living here. If I can not seek a relo package with my employer, I will probably move to Bristol. I can't picture myself @ 40 knocking on someone's door because they scraped my car...because they left trash in the hallway...because the music is too loud @ 4 AM...or watch people argue at the store that they have enough $$ on their EBT card. Or worse...see Whole Foods take over Stop & Shop..I understand you may not agree with me, but there are many many people that do. The only way I can see the population not decline is if the unethical senators et their way...and then we could be considered the Laredo of the north.

[Jenkins]

Question for Jenkins....Did you only plan on living here for a few years or did you change your mind after you realized that the school system is one of the worst in NE? I would guess the latter because that is a lot more common than you think. ...at least in the top 3 concerns. If the city was your investment portfolio, would you take any more risk by investing? Now let's see what happens when these adjustable loans come due,.....

I was aware that Providence had a poor school system. I did not know it was about the worst in NE, but either way I factored in the reality that I would be in Providence for less than 10 years probably. But, even had I the money to stay in Boston, I would have moved when it came time to put a kid in school. To me, even an ok city school system is still not comparable to a good suburban one (sorry in advance for my admitted suburban prejudice and p*ssing off a few of you who had a good experience in a city school).

But for me, the savings on my mortgage payment every month compared to living in Boston absolutely more than makes up for the flaws Providence has. I can't say I am sold on the long term health of the state, though. Things politically very much remind me of Massachusetts in the 1970's - when Taxachusetts earned its name, corruption was common, and Boston was shabby. Mass. made the changes neccesary to now have a state that other than high housing prices, is in great shape. I hope RI can make those changes, but I it seems the special interests have a very very tight hold and vested interest in keeping the status quo. The recent budget was a step in the right direction, however. I certainly hope things improve, because I love so much about the state otherwise. Oh ya, and would I invest in more property, I don't know, I am very conservative by nature, so maybe not now...

[Jerry2]

I was aware that Providence had a poor school system. I did not know it was about the worst in NE, but either way I factored in the reality that I would be in Providence for less than 10 years probably. But, even had I the money to stay in Boston, I would have moved when it came time to put a kid in school. To me, even an ok city school system is still not comparable to a good suburban one (sorry in advance for my admitted suburban prejudice and p*ssing off a few of you who had a good experience in a city school).

But for me, the savings on my mortgage payment every month compared to living in Boston absolutely more than makes up for the flaws Providence has. I can't say I am sold on the long term health of the state, though. Things politically very much remind me of Massachusetts in the 1970's - when Taxachusetts earned its name, corruption was common, and Boston was shabby. Mass. made the changes neccesary to now have a state that other than high housing prices, is in great shape. I hope RI can make those changes, but I it seems the special interests have a very very tight hold and vested interest in keeping the status quo. The recent budget was a step in the right direction, however. I certainly hope things improve, because I love so much about the state otherwise. Oh ya, and would I invest in more property, I don't know, I am very conservative by nature, so maybe not now...

well put......I think that Prov's "re-birth" could be attributed to people like you. Your school system concerns are probably one of the biggest concerns surrounding residents that have made the plunge here. If you take away people that fall into your category, you are left with young urban professionals and immigrants...2 distinct social classes that will have truly determined the city's "renaissance" in years to come. Now let's hope you can sell that house when the time comes

[jencoleslaw]

Yes, people shouldn't post things they don't want everyone knowing about. Providence is so small that sooner or later someone will figure out who you are, especially when you use your real name. I've had a number of people tell me they wish they could post more, but their position makes that difficult.

I do encourage anyone who has something they want posted, but not attached to their name, to PM or email me. Thanks to the Apple vs. Think Secret Supreme Court case, I'm now a journalist and can protect my sources. Though, even with that, it's still a small city and people can figure out sources pretty easily at times.

I hope that whatever transpired Jen, it hasn't soured you on the forum, and I hope you'll continue to contribute. Even when you're being a crazy tree lady and I adamantly disagree with you, I still value your input.

oh pumpkin: its not the forum! no way! i love this place! but i have learned that to work in the city you gotta keep your game face on.

[runawayjim]

If you decide to have children, will you send them to Providence schools? Furthermore, the "tons" of middle class families that live around you...Are they mostly elderly who have lived there a long time? Or are they legitimate new residents that will contribute an investment to the city? I guess my point is that I see the future of the city as only 2 distinct social classes forming...indirectly homogenizing the landscape....a sort of boutique edgy Boston suburb if you will...limited private investment...increased poverty...sub-par neighborhoods with pockets of gentrification. Providence of 10 years ago might haave been a little more run down than now because of the lack of investment, but there were more areas that you could raise a family or get to know your neighbors...Change is inevitable anywhere...but when your own political representatives like Sen. Pichardo and Sen. Diaz are backing proposals to allow illegal aliens free health care and free college tuition...you begin to wonder the future of the very plce you call home. I love Providence, but I can still love the city without actually living here. If I can not seek a relo package with my employer, I will probably move to Bristol. I can't picture myself @ 40 knocking on someone's door because they scraped my car...because they left trash in the hallway...because the music is too loud @ 4 AM...or watch people argue at the store that they have enough $$ on their EBT card. Or worse...see Whole Foods take over Stop & Shop..I understand you may not agree with me, but there are many many people that do. The only way I can see the population not decline is if the unethical senators et their way...and then we could be considered the Laredo of the north.

if i were to stay in the city after i have kids (which won't happen because of the fiancee who wants a decent yard and is tired of living in the city, although i will require that wherever we move have city-like features), i would send them to private school. that would be the case almost anywhere i end up. aside from barrington public schools, almost all the public schools systems are not as good as private schools. the reason being that class sizes are much smaller in private schools and generally teachers just care more (you have to in order to accept the much lower salary).

that being said... my neighborhood is a mix of elderly who do their part (you should see the yards in my neighborhood, these people put a lot of time into them and are proud of them) and younger families (most with children who are no older than 10). there are a few families with high school aged kids (the one across the street from me for example, i think their kids go to la salle, although they never walk to school and it's right down the street, so it might be elsewhere). i'd say no more than 40% of the homes in my neighborhood are owned by elderly people. and my neighborhood is very clean, very quiet, and looks really nice. it's almost suburban living in the city aside from the fact that it's still fairly walkable with decent amenities within half a mile.

[brick]

I just wanted to take one minute and mention that Jerry's concerns with Providence are concerns with cities all over the country. The middle class is moving to the suburbs, and moreso than ever to the exurbs nowadays.

I know we here at UP have similar tastes in what we would like our cities to look like and how we would like to live our livs, but the sad fact is that most of America prioritizes a big yard and a decent school system well ahead of anything that modern cities offer. (some cities have excellent school systems but not many and there is usually competition to get into the best schools)

[jencoleslaw]

my sister sent me this quote today:

"With breathtaking rapidity, we are destroying all that was lovely to look at and turning America into a prison house of the spirit. The affluent society, with relentless single-minded energy, is turning our cities, most of suburbia and most of our roadways into the most affluent slum on earth." - Eric Sevareid