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PROPOSED: The "Power Block"


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I'm all for an office building at the Fogarty site, I think the city is approaching what it needs as far as rooms with the Masonic Temple and expanded Westin coming online, and the hotel at Parcel 12. We'll need a replacement for the Holiday Inn, and it seems the Produce Warehouse may be that.

It would be nice to see a healthy amount of parking at the Fogarty site, ground level retail. Office space for Proc. Group (I'd assume they are getting ready to expand beyond 150, 150 seems really small for a company with the portfolio they have.

I'd also like to see ProJo take space in there, build a skybridge to the current ProJo Building, and knock down all that crap that ProJo has sitting on Emmett Square. If there were enough parking in the building, we could even get ProJo to give up the lot on Washington Street.

And shooting up over 20 floors, would leave room for either more office space, or penthouse condos.

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I'm all for an office building at the Fogarty site, I think the city is approaching what it needs as far as rooms with the Masonic Temple and expanded Westin coming online, and the hotel at Parcel 12. We'll need a replacement for the Holiday Inn, and it seems the Produce Warehouse may be that.

It would be nice to see a healthy amount of parking at the Fogarty site, ground level retail. Office space for Proc. Group (I'd assume they are getting ready to expand beyond 150, 150 seems really small for a company with the portfolio they have.

I'd also like to see ProJo take space in there, build a skybridge to the current ProJo Building, and knock down all that crap that ProJo has sitting on Emmett Square. If there were enough parking in the building, we could even get ProJo to give up the lot on Washington Street.

And shooting up over 20 floors, would leave room for either more office space, or penthouse condos.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If I

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I don't know, this market is very weird, all the way up the east coast there is very little office development right now. New York and Boston are seeing huge downtown residential building booms, and especially in Boston, those residential units are being built in locations that were slated for offices just a few years ago. The dotcom burst is still echoing, Sept. 11th is still an impact on the market, Katrina is an impact, and a lot of merging and consolidating and off-shoring is happen right now.

In a different business environment, Providence's current vacancy rate would be enough to trigger new construction. Right now though, I think we're seeing a chicken and egg situtation. People aren't locating in Providence because there isn't enough, or the right kind of office space, but no one is building because there is no demand.

I think the demand would materialize if someone would take the leap and build. I don't think we have a market for numerous 30 story office towers, but there is room in the market for more Class A space. We have a situtation where the Class A spaces, places like the Citizens Building and One Financial are pretty much full. This puts pressure on the Class B spaces and artificially inflates the prices. I think there are companies in Providence now, in Class B space, paying Class A prices that would be eager to move into true Class A space, if any or enough of it was available. This would free up the Class B space for true Class B business. There are small businesses where a couple people are working out of someone 's home and they want to expand, or the business is stuck out in the burbs somewhere, and those businesses want to get into Providence. But they can't because the Class B space has artificially inflated rents, or is full (causing the artifically inflated rents). I think if GTECH fills it's speculative space, and the Fogarty Building becomes an office building, and successfully fills it's space, we'll see some more office proposals, not a lot, but some. Maybe the Old Public Safety Complex, and WaterPlace Phase II.

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I don't know, this market is very weird, all the way up the east coast there is very little office development right now...  In a different business environment, Providence's current vacancy rate would be enough to trigger new construction...

I think the demand would materialize if someone would take the leap and build...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All astute observations. They said at the Prov 2020 presentation that our vacancy rate should be enough to trigger building, but that rents weren't going up signaling demand higher than what was needed to the keep the vacancy rate right where it is. I have a feeling you are correct though. Everyone is in a waiting mode right now... If someone takes the leap, I think the situation will be as you describe...

- Garris

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I don't know, this market is very weird, all the way up the east coast there is very little office development right now. New York and Boston are seeing huge downtown residential building booms, and especially in Boston, those residential units are being built in locations that were slated for offices just a few years ago. The dotcom burst is still echoing, Sept. 11th is still an impact on the market, Katrina is an impact, and a lot of merging and consolidating and off-shoring is happen right now.

In a different business environment, Providence's current vacancy rate would be enough to trigger new construction. Right now though, I think we're seeing a chicken and egg situtation. People aren't locating in Providence because there isn't enough, or the right kind of office space, but no one is building because there is no demand.

I think the demand would materialize if someone would take the leap and build. I don't think we have a market for numerous 30 story office towers, but there is room in the market for more Class A space. We have a situtation where the Class A spaces, places like the Citizens Building and One Financial are pretty much full. This puts pressure on the Class B spaces and artificially inflates the prices. I think there are companies in Providence now, in Class B space, paying Class A prices that would be eager to move into true Class A space, if any or enough of it was available. This would free up the Class B space for true Class B business. There are small businesses where a couple people are working out of someone 's home and they want to expand, or the business is stuck out in the burbs somewhere, and those businesses want to get into Providence. But they can't because the Class B space has artificially inflated rents, or is full (causing the artifically inflated rents). I think if GTECH fills it's speculative space, and the Fogarty Building becomes an office building, and successfully fills it's space, we'll see some more office proposals, not a lot, but some. Maybe the Old Public Safety Complex, and WaterPlace Phase II.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well said. I saw the same situation in Tampa about 3 years ago...although a younger and far less dense city, the whole Class A and B office space scenario played out; opening up a suburban business move to the downtown. Of course, it still has nothing compared to Providence in terms of nightlife downtown.

I agree that the issue in Providence is the need for one bold move - a large Class A building (25-30) with ample interior parking will free up the move from B to A and from suburbs and C to B. But that requires three things - city incentive (it is there I think), an anchor corporate tenant (who?), and a prime location (Waterplace, along the new Dorrance area, or LaSalle Square).

Unless there is an exodus from Boston, there will not be a more than one major (20-30 floors) commercial structure built in the next 5 years in Downcity.

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would it be crazy for the city/state to recognize that this is what needs to happen, and then have the state ask one of its companies CVS/HASBRO/ETC... to move downtown into a building with extra class A office space?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think the state should or would encourage anyone to move unless they were threatening to leave the state (like GTECH). Woonsocket and Pawtucket would be pissed if the state arranged to move their big companies.

The state needs to look for local companies looking to expand, or out of state companies ready to move to a bigger market (i.e. the Boston market, but the less expensive Boston market).

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Unless there is an exodus from Boston, there will not be a more than one major (20-30 floors) commercial structure built in the next 5 years in Downcity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Probably true, and there will likely not be an exodus (since the Prov 2020 folks said our costs are virtually as high as Boston's, so why would someone move?). To my knowledge, I've never heard of RI trying to woo Boston companies either (given the close regional issues and interdependence, this probably wouldn't be politically smart...).

I wouldn't expect CVS or Hasbro to move for the reasons mentioned, plus the fact that like seemingly every major US company, both of RI's giants are in hypercompetitive industries under tight pricing pressures, making new glimmering HQ's an extravagant luxury, I'm sure...

- Garris

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To my knowledge, I've never heard of RI trying to woo Boston companies either (given the close regional issues and interdependence, this probably wouldn't be politically smart...).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In the late 90's, during the crest of the dot com boom, RI launched a campaign to lure MA high-tech companies.

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To my knowledge, I've never heard of RI trying to woo Boston companies either (given the close regional issues and interdependence, this probably wouldn't be politically smart...).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There's actually a move within Mass. to get hightech companies in the 128/495 corridors to consider Fall River. The first company has recently announced a move to Fall River. So instate movement can happen, but it's happening in Mass. because the towns in the 128/495 corridors are so jam packed right now. In RI if we started stealing companies from other cities/towns it could really hurt them.

I wouldn't expect CVS or Hasbro to move for the reasons mentioned, plus the fact that like seemingly every major US company, both of RI's giants are in hypercompetitive industries under tight pricing pressures, making new glimmering HQ's an extravagant luxury, I'm sure...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hasbro is in a particularly tight industry, they don't have the means to be investing in luxuries. They aren't going to leave Pawtucket anytime soon. Besides, I believe there digs in Pawtucket are quite nice actually.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I worked for Citizens for 3 or 4 years doing IT stuff, and I would definitely agree with them making things happen very quickly once a decision is made. One of the things that was infuriating there was the lack of planning ahead. We would get word that they were buying someone out and it would then be expected that we have the other bank completely online and functional in like 4 or 6 weeks. After a while it got to be a pretty smoth process, but it was always nerve wracking. If they were to build a new headquarters I would expect it to be something like making an anouncement and then breaking ground within a month. They generally keep everything very secretive until they pull the trigger and then its just BOOM.

Liam

(So very glad he doesnt work for Citizens anymore :-)

Back to the Power Block...

I was in Providence and stayed at the Holiday Innn Dowtown last wwek and discovered a piece of information that may be of some reliability...

TPG is committed to the 27-30 floor condo tower in 2007- they just want to manage the 1) disruption of the site by construction and 2) cash flow

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Back to the Power Block...

I was in Providence and stayed at the Holiday Innn Dowtown last wwek and discovered a piece of information that may be of some reliability...

TPG is committed to the 27-30 floor condo tower in 2007- they just want to manage the 1) disruption of the site by construction and 2) cash flow

That sounds very reasonable. As you saw, just working on the Holiday Inn reno is quite disruptive in and of itself. Imagine if they had a new tower going up at the same time. They actually have two site trailers sitting on the upper level of the parking garage now. They'd have to find someplace else to be if the tower work were happening now.

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Back to the Power Block...

I was in Providence and stayed at the Holiday Innn Dowtown last wwek and discovered a piece of information that may be of some reliability...

TPG is committed to the 27-30 floor condo tower in 2007- they just want to manage the 1) disruption of the site by construction and 2) cash flow

This is certainly good news. Do you mean starting work in 2007? So that means the 2009 timeline originally proposed is still on then?

Cotuit's points certainly make sense... I guess it would be tough to do both at once, although doing them consecutively means disruption there from 2005 to 2009... Wow...

I still think that tower has the potential to be the most important project in Providence. It would become the gateway to Federal Hill, the anchor of LaSalle Square, the dominant face of Providence on I-95, and perhaps the most significant new addition to the Providence skyline since the Superman building. If we're lucky, it would spur better pedestrian connections and get people used to the idea of height and density along the highway, paving the way for other projects along there and nearby.

-

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This is certainly good news. Do you mean starting work in 2007? So that means the 2009 timeline originally proposed is still on then?

Cotuit's points certainly make sense... I guess it would be tough to do both at once, although doing them consecutively means disruption there from 2005 to 2009... Wow...

I still think that tower has the potential to be the most important project in Providence. It would become the gateway to Federal Hill, the anchor of LaSalle Square, the dominant face of Providence on I-95, and perhaps the most significant new addition to the Providence skyline since the Superman building. If we're lucky, it would spur better pedestrian connections and get people used to the idea of height and density along the highway, paving the way for other projects along there and nearby.

-

Hmm... disruption... I can't say I agree, actually. For one thing, I'd say that any additional loss in patronage from having both at once would be less than having an on-going disruption.

To look at numbers:

Just through pure judgement, the renovations being done on Holiday Inn will definately lower patronage. I'd say as much as 25% of guests will go for another hotel, which leaves 75% of their existing patronage staying, probably because they know that the work being done would be while they are outside of the hotel enjoying the city anyway.

If they had construction done across the street, that same 75% would be less likely to leave still, because again, their reasoning still applies: the noise is only during the day, when they are outside of the hotel.

So, by doing the condo construction while they do the renovations, they'll probably have about 70% patronage (Let's just say an additional 5% decide to say the additional construction is too much) for the next two years.

But, now, they'll be having four years of construction. They'll be up to 75% patronage again, but for double the time, and this could be an additional PR problem as well. For 4 years now, people will be complaining about the noise, instead of a mere 2 years.

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I think the current tightness of the hotel room market, and the fact that the Holiday Inn is the cheapest downtown (it's nearest competition being the Radisson) mean that the hotel really won't see that much loss in booked rooms. What will hit them hard is when they start going floor by floor closing rooms to renovate them. What they might lose is the groups that book the Dunk, some of the smaller acts stay at the Holiday Inn rather than the Westin. Of course the Westin is also in major construction mode itself.

The thing that will really hurt about the condo tower construction, is the parking. They will have to find parking elsewhere for their guests. By then they should be a Hilton, and will likely have valets for this (the Holiday Inn does not have valet parking). The Holiday Inn also does event parking, so in addition to having to pay for offsite parking, and hiring valets, they will lose the money they bring in on event parking.

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  • 7 months later...

I see in the building height rank thread there were 4 power block buildings that were 300 feet and up proposed ... now the westin's under construction, the hilton condos have been scaled back, and the gulf station is basically a dream. What and where was the 4th power block tower going to go?

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I see in the building height rank thread there were 4 power block buildings that were 300 feet and up proposed ... now the westin's under construction, the hilton condos have been scaled back, and the gulf station is basically a dream. What and where was the 4th power block tower going to go?

Last year the Power Block was to be: Westin 2, Hilton Residence, 55 Broadway (Gulf Station), and a condo tower at an undisclosed location. The undisclosed location turned out the be MetroLofts at Westminster and the west Service Road.

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  • 1 year later...

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